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  1. #61
    The trick against a dk as melee in a 1v1 situation is that you want to take away all breathing room and kill him as quickly as possible. Here's a little secret about unholy dk's that few people seem to realize:

    DKs are not purely a pet, melee or ranged class, but they are all of these simultaneously as well. A good DK will become the role that best suits the situation at hand. Warriors, WW monks and enhance shammies at the moment are better melee classes than an unholy DK when the DK is playing as melee. For example when I am up against a warrior I'll play quite defensively when my cooldowns aren't up. I don't want to engage it in unholy presence because I'll get a beating. I usually go offensive and melee on warriors when I'm able to stun to avoid that parry. The same parry which DKs have. Yes, it is really annoying when you're about to get a kill and you just see "Parry. Parry. Parry. Parry."

    Another thing about DKs is that they have very, very little active damage mitigation. There is IBF which is 20% damage reduction for 12s and AMS which is maybe 100 - 150k shield against magic damage. Blood presence and conversion are great for keeping pressure off, but when cooldowns have been blown by opponents I know it's time to kite and avoid, unless my healer is in a very good position.

    Lastly, contrary to what people think, DKs don't have much "burst". Their burst has a high ramp up time involving building blood tap stacks, death runes and runic power. A DK could use unholy frenzy, gargoyle, outbreak, festering, festering, empower runic weapon, but it's horribly inefficient and results in less overall damage. A warrior, monk and ESPECIALLY enhance shammy can do much more damage in a shorter period of time.

    With the above in mind, when I play against good WW monks that destroy me they simply don't give any breathing room. I get stunned, which I can't not trinket, then fists of fury which I must IBF/desecrate, then I get disarmed which is just 8s of complete failure. I'll asphyxiate which gets trinketted into pet stun which will be all of 1.5s. By the time the disarm ends even with blood presence and conversion I've taken tons of damage. Quick note: Stun and disarm removes parry chance. At that point my only hope in hell is to kite and let my pets and diseases do the work. Problem is that the monk is just not kite-able with flying, rolling and tiger's lust. Also the monk might cast touch of karma which if I use the force I can try to AMS its application. The AMS might hold off on some of the damage, but the problem is not the DoT but rather the damage the monk is NOT taking. If I last until my second asphyxiate is up it doesn't matter because the monk has a second trinket class ability.

    There is the whole thing of garg/frenzy coming before or after the touch of karma, but to be honest as an unholy DK I don't know how anyone can force a touch of karma from a monk without having garg up. Unholy just doesn't do enough damage in a short enough period of time.

    Anyway, I'm no pro, but the above is my experience with DK.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Hand Banana View Post
    Again, I don't know for sure cause I don't have a monk, but I don't think fists of fury is parryable either. At least I can't remember ever avoiding it, and thats an even shorter cd than asphyxiate. Either way, I realize the dk is tough to kill too, but you just can't get damage on a monk. Ring of peace stops anything and everything a dk can do, an additional disarm, stuns, roots, high avoidance, its just frustrating to fight. Good monks will see gargoyle, karma and chain silence me so I can't AMS, SHS -> ring of peace - > FoF to force a trinket if I still have any, by that time karma is already ticking for 20k+ per second on me and the monk is beating me into the ground taking 0 damage. Its more the fact that the dk has to rely on conversion to keep him up and has no HOLY SHIT cds to save his life, and after about 30 seconds you exhaust all ur cds and runes and you can't maintain proper damage with conversion still up. Maintaining the RP for conv is tough since he avoids so many of your strikes. Basically just survive the garg (if you don't kill me b4 its over) and you win easily.
    =/ why talk about something you don't know about then?

    fists is definitely parryable, I've had all ticks parried by DKs before. It's 25 second cd (only 5 shorter than asphyxiate) and costs 75% of our chi to use and as I stated earlier, might not even hit unless I paralyse first.

    I won't be running ring in arena so that's not an issue. AMS has a MUCH lower cd than karma and honestly there's nothing to use AMS on apart from Karma, so I don't see why a DK would ever take damage from karma.

    At the same time I don't see a DK ever going to use garg unless karma has already been used, or if he's good he will use garg, bait karma and just dismiss garg instantly.

    avoiding strikes means just 1 global before you try again though. As i stated earlier if my RSK or fists get parried then it goes on cd, leg sweep is also parryable so before I do any of these things I literally have to paralyse.

    Imo this fight can go either way with equal skill level and mostly down to RNG avoidance.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    No, you make yourself look worse by just commenting on random things without giving any logical reasoning behind it.

    I have a WW monk, and I don't see how it's possible for me to kill a DK. He has 3 ways to get out of stuns, can just conversion and spam chains of ice when karma is up and necrotic takes care of my self healing and parries 20% of anything I do. The only thing I can do that sticks is disarm and we all know DKs don't exactly rely on their weapon for damage (Unholy that is).

    I even dispel diseases on cd but it's still too much damage.
    If you can't beat a DK as a WW monk, it's either a serious gear gap or the problem is you. Guessing the latter. Unholy DKs don't use their weapon? This is news to me.

    Illana, you continually post clueless and blatantly wrong information all over the pvp forum.
    More infractions than a faultline.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhearth View Post
    If you can't beat a DK as a WW monk, it's either a serious gear gap or the problem is you. Guessing the latter. Unholy DKs don't use their weapon? This is news to me.

    Illana, you continually post clueless and blatantly wrong information all over the pvp forum.
    they don't need to use their weapon to apply diseases, which is most of their damage.

    On topic, I did happen to have an encounter 1vs1 against an unholy dk after a cross kill. I had ring of peace for this and it's pretty much what won it for me.

    I am undergeared (ilevel 532) against probably people almost in full 550 but that shouldn't make so much of a difference.

  5. #65
    The Insane peggleftw's Avatar
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    never had problems with dk on my WW monk, just have to watch for icebound fortitude so i don't waste my stuns, but generally i've never had a problem as a 538ilvl WW.

    i find kiting them, like i do with wars doesn't work very well, its go all out or go home as they have too much ranged damage for me to try snare and running around like i can vs warriors.
    Last edited by peggleftw; 2014-05-14 at 01:19 AM.
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  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    they don't need to use their weapon to apply diseases, which is most of their damage.
    Without outbreak up, the only way to apply both diseases is plague strike, so yes they most absolutely use their weapon to apply diseases. Also, scourge strike is a major source of damage.
    More infractions than a faultline.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldhearth View Post
    Without outbreak up, the only way to apply both diseases is plague strike, so yes they most absolutely use their weapon to apply diseases. Also, scourge strike is a major source of damage.
    lol cause you're going to scourge strike when you have death runes up vs something that can heal.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    lol cause you're going to scourge strike when you have death runes up vs something that can heal.
    Scourge strike takes an unholy rune, sweetheart. Not a death rune. Unholy runes don't heal. Not to mention, we were talking about applying diseases, not self heals anyway.

    Thanks for proving once again how you have absolutely no clue about what you're talking about, as evidenced by every single thread you post in.

    Please stop posting and filling the forum with garbage. 1200 bracket must be hard for you.
    Last edited by Coldhearth; 2014-05-14 at 08:26 AM.
    More infractions than a faultline.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    they don't need to use their weapon to apply diseases, which is most of their damage.
    They can apply all diseases once every minute using outbreak. Outside of that, without a weapon, they can only apply frost fever which is by far the weaker of the two diseases for unholy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    fists is definitely parryable, I've had all ticks parried by DKs before. It's 25 second cd (only 5 shorter than asphyxiate) and costs 75% of our chi to use and as I stated earlier, might not even hit unless I paralyse first.
    The parry chance is 30%, so you're most likely going to land it. In 1v1 situation surely there is no harm in paralysing first. It's not like it has a really long cooldown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    I won't be running ring in arena so that's not an issue. AMS has a MUCH lower cd than karma and honestly there's nothing to use AMS on apart from Karma, so I don't see why a DK would ever take damage from karma.
    Like I said in my above post, the damage part of karma isn't the problem. It's the damage the monk isn't taking. If you do some simple math you see that karma is much better anyway, considering that AMS protects the DK for half his hp, THEN battle fatigue is applied. To be honest the only thing I use AMS for in arena is to prevent the application of magic effects and to regenerate runic power quickly. It's almost entirely useless as a damage mitigator. Touch of karma mitigates much more damage than that. I mean, the DK then has to do your whole hp pool in damage before he can actually get to your hp pool. Considering that most of a DK's damage comes from pressure through necrotics and the fact that you aren't actually taking damage means that it's an incredibly effective tool against DKs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    At the same time I don't see a DK ever going to use garg unless karma has already been used, or if he's good he will use garg, bait karma and just dismiss garg instantly.
    This seems rather silly. I can't see a DK use his 3 minute massive damage cooldown that is basically essential to land kills without dampening up to bait a defensive ability with a 1 minute cooldown.

    When I kill WW monks outside of dampening it is after they have used disarm, ring of peace and touch of karma. I have to save up full blood taps, runic power and have empower runic weapon up. Also I have to cross-cc so that my healer is able to get his own cc off. I have to push him to touch of karma during my initial necrotics with gargoyle up, then once that is used I have to make use of my blood taps and empower runic weapon.

    Here's the complete joke of it all though: If the monk would simply kite and LoS me during the gargoyle phase, he would have no problems surviving. It's when they try to keep the pressure on me with my cooldowns up, cc on their healer and me getting heals that they die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illana View Post
    Imo this fight can go either way with equal skill level and mostly down to RNG avoidance.
    Monks have passive 8% parry and 18 - 20% dodge more or less. That is excluding the sparring passive which can increase parrying by 15% for a time. I have the most trouble hitting monks out of any melee class in the game.

    But still... No. An equal skilled monk will definitely a beat an equal skilled DK.

    Sorry to pull this one on you, Illana, but in the healer thread you used the logic "everyone agrees shaman is easiest so it must be true". Here everyone agrees WW > DK so it must also be true :P

  10. #70
    Brewmaster Tucci's Avatar
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    I just started leveling my hunter again but I feel like a really good hunter could win against a dk of the same skill level, but I'm not 100% sure as I have yet to go in depth into unholy pvp on my dk. Maybe I should mention that my hunter is also dwarf which would definitely help. Great DK's are indeed a bitch to fight. A disarm pet would be good for that 1v1 due to dk's never using weapon chains.
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  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Tucci View Post
    a really good hunter could win against a dk
    In a 1v1 type situation, yes. Scatter shot him when he grips to wait out the double grip timer then disengage (you might scatter him before he can stun you right next to him). Keep conc shot on him and master's call the roots.

    Congratulations, you just beat an unholy DK.
    Last edited by Aryah; 2014-05-14 at 09:08 AM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Neo View Post
    I main a DK in PvP, I will give you some tips on how to kill an unholy DK.

    1. Are you a caster?
    Yes: Silence the DK, and pump as much damage as possible on him. At this point he will more than likely Asphyxiate you and pop all his CDs.
    Can you LOS?
    Yes: Just line his attacks Trinket the asphyxiate he doesn't have any other cc's
    No: CC his Gargoyle, that thing will kill you. Keep max distance from DK, do not use your teleport/blink/gtfo abilities until he blows his Death Grip (remember dk can double grip)

    No: Kite during IBF, stun the DK during Unholy Frenzy and blow all your CD's. (frenzy causes the dk to take damage)
    - If you have additional ranged CC, use it on the Gargoyle.

    General Tips:
    - Keep pet on follow if you are not engaging the DK, if you leave a pet on DK that just gives him free Death Strike heals and additional RP for Conversion
    - If you got the DK >40% , DO NOT go on the defensive. Once you got a DK low, it is difficult to maintain pressure + heal. The biggest mistake people do is try and LOS when both at low hp, the longer the fight goes the better because in blood presence I do not regen runes as fast.
    - Don't bother killing the ghoul, if you can cc it great. Don't kill it unless you can multidot, 1 min cd to resummon.
    - Trinket Asphyxiates not Gnaw.
    - Kiting a DK isn't about distance but LOS, DK's do not have a way to slow you while out of LOS
    - If you are below 35% hp, do not let soul reaper go off on you without popping a defensive. It is the hardest hitting ability a DK has.
    - Dispel diseases, while he can just reapply them thats a GCD/Rune hes using on applying diseases rather than killing you.
    - Don't stack with your pet or partner, makes it really easy to spread diseases and maintain pressure.
    - Open with Spell Reflection most DK's open w/ Outbreak
    - When DK places Dark Simulacrum do not finish your cast, use a useless spell. (cant count the amount of times ive stolen fear)
    - CC, don't go toe to toe vs a dk. You will lose, you have to be inventive and cc him as much as possible and slowly drain his life away. For ex if your a hunter, scatter/trap/explosive trap him away/chimarea+aimed shot combo/kite .. rinse repeat.
    Just wanted to add that DKs set bonus is that they get doublegrip. Means they can grip you, and within the next 3 seconds they can grip you again. Almost every single player, instantly try to get away from it/charge back to their target.
    Wait 3 seconds after you've been gripped, before escaping. I'm specially looking at mages/druids blinking, warriors charging away, hunters disengaging, right off the bat.
    Root DKs. Apart from the death grip they can't really do much to you, if you root them and kite about.

    To OP:
    I might have missed you saying what class you play yourself, but that would help a lot, to tell you how to counter a DK.

    I mostly pvp on my feral, and have little trouble with them. Can more or less just apply opening bleeds to them and run off, seeing them go down to 40% health or less from that. Can kite the slowpokeDK around a pillar, killing their pet if they keep that one on me, to i can re-stealth. After that you can usually kill them off.
    At least my experience. I admit i don't know any good unholy DKs to duel with, so i only see them in arena, but from what i played my own dk i don't find them that strong outside of people not knowing how to deal with them.
    Everyone has so much to say
    They talk talk talk their lives away

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    They can apply all diseases once every minute using outbreak. Outside of that, without a weapon, they can only apply frost fever which is by far the weaker of the two diseases for unholy.
    There is no penalty for being avoided as a DK apart from a global, the rune isn't used and you can just try again. As I stated before if my RSK gets parried it's 8 seconds before I can try and apply healing reduction again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    The parry chance is 30%, so you're most likely going to land it. In 1v1 situation surely there is no harm in paralysing first. It's not like it has a really long cooldown.
    "most likely" I've had my stuff parried many times in a row, plus it's not just 30%, it's more like 33% in full prideful and whenever they get one of their numerous strength procs it shoots up to almost 45%. Good point about paralysis, I should be using that more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    Like I said in my above post, the damage part of karma isn't the problem. It's the damage the monk isn't taking. If you do some simple math you see that karma is much better anyway, considering that AMS protects the DK for half his hp, THEN battle fatigue is applied. To be honest the only thing I use AMS for in arena is to prevent the application of magic effects and to regenerate runic power quickly. It's almost entirely useless as a damage mitigator. Touch of karma mitigates much more damage than that. I mean, the DK then has to do your whole hp pool in damage before he can actually get to your hp pool. Considering that most of a DK's damage comes from pressure through necrotics and the fact that you aren't actually taking damage means that it's an incredibly effective tool against DKs.
    Karma has a BIG problem, it gives the DK unlimited RP while it's up if you're smart enough to AMS it. So he can just have conversion running the entire time while just running away or asphyxiate you for the duration or even just apply necrotics to you while it's up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    This seems rather silly. I can't see a DK use his 3 minute massive damage cooldown that is basically essential to land kills without dampening up to bait a defensive ability with a 1 minute cooldown.
    Which is why a good dk would probably never use garg vs a monk who hasn't karma'd, there's plenty of damage and healing absorb from a DK to force a karma without garg. Garg is essential to land kills when there's a healer involved but definitely not 1vs1 against a monk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    When I kill WW monks outside of dampening it is after they have used disarm, ring of peace and touch of karma. I have to save up full blood taps, runic power and have empower runic weapon up. Also I have to cross-cc so that my healer is able to get his own cc off. I have to push him to touch of karma during my initial necrotics with gargoyle up, then once that is used I have to make use of my blood taps and empower runic weapon.
    I didn't really talk about when another person is present, the situation I'm worried about is 1vs1 after a cross kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    Here's the complete joke of it all though: If the monk would simply kite and LoS me during the gargoyle phase, he would have no problems surviving. It's when they try to keep the pressure on me with my cooldowns up, cc on their healer and me getting heals that they die.
    Still not relevant to what I was talking about. In any case a DK would be training my healer not hitting me in a healer/dps situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    Monks have passive 8% parry and 18 - 20% dodge more or less. That is excluding the sparring passive which can increase parrying by 15% for a time. I have the most trouble hitting monks out of any melee class in the game.
    Yeah again, what penalty do DKs have for missing attacks? One global.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    But still... No. An equal skilled monk will definitely a beat an equal skilled DK.
    With ring of peace: probably. Without it (most times) it's a toss up imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    Sorry to pull this one on you, Illana, but in the healer thread you used the logic "everyone agrees shaman is easiest so it must be true". Here everyone agrees WW > DK so it must also be true :P
    Nobody really gave any concrete reasons why though, apart from IF and only if the monk is specced ring of peace.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post
    Yeah thanks.

    Are we having a 1v1 duel in Elwynn? Are we meeting randomly on a battleground? Did we just kill each other's healers in 2s? So many sub-factors of each of those scenarios as well.

    I don't have any problems against rogues as a DK. WW monks can be a big problem.
    finally someone saying the truth!

    Unholy dks are actually a hard counter for the rogues, play both and look for all the rogue tears whenever it comes to unholy dks. On the other side a ww monk can kill him quite easily.

    Maybe the rogue can kill a dk comment was directed to the frost dks....that might be right. These specs are VERY different, i hate it when people do not mention a dks spec and only say "dk".

    there are no classes only specs, especially considering duels.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pool of the Dead View Post
    Never lose to DK's ever on my Monk.

    Lose to them almost all the time on my Druid.

    Often the same DK's dueling out front of SW.
    say the specs pls or it never happened.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aryah View Post

    In a duel type situation the DK doesn't have enough up time on a hunter to win the duel. The DK will be able to put out some damage, no doubt, but the hunter will win because it is able to always be doing damage while the DK isn't.
    lets be fair a hunter(any spec) will lose against a half skilled unholy dk. pet will stick to the hunter and dots are ticking while conversion heals u and if you catch him you can stack some ns absorbs on him - the only way to lose this duel is to stay open field like a zombie. I use pillars against hunters and i am proud of it, cause if you don't NOTHING can beat a hunter(any spec).

  15. #75
    Not saying this proves anything, but somehow the only one out of 100+ players to beat him is a WW.
    One could argue that this strengthens the argument that WWs are good against DKs.
    One could also argue that he beat 100 players before, thus making DKs very strong.
    And the fact that he is R1 fighting non-R1s

    http://imgur.com/VQiIjEl

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by quitefrankly View Post
    Not saying this proves anything, but somehow the only one out of 100+ players to beat him is a WW.
    One could argue that this strengthens the argument that WWs are good against DKs.
    One could also argue that he beat 100 players before, thus making DKs very strong.
    And the fact that he is R1 fighting non-R1s

    http://imgur.com/VQiIjEl
    I watched this stream too and the 5+ monks who fought him after all lost horribly. How convenient you left that part out.

    Now this isn't indicative of the situation I was describing since he knew he was fighting a monk 1vs1 and took enduring infection etc and IMO he misplayed the fight against obey (the one monk who beat him).

    Also he's not actually a Rank 1, he's done 53 2vs2 wins on PTR. Obey I think is an actual glad on live.

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