1. #1

    Blackfuse 10m heroic tank questions

    Hey guys, my group is going to be starting on blackfuse 10m heroic next week and I have some tank-related questions.

    First of all, the belt group is going to be killing missiles all the time except when its not there (like 6th, 9th, and 12th).

    My first question is I have a prot pally and bm monk, both almost equally geared (prot is 568, bm is 571).

    Which tank should I be using for blackfuse heroic?

    Our other tank is bear and we plan on using ursol's for mines because I heard it helps a ton to CC mines.

    Which tank should tank the first in order to maximize ursol usage?

    We plan on doing:

    Tank 1 3 stacks -> kill first shredder / Tank 1 2 more stacks -> kill second shredder

    Tank 2 now has 5 stacks -> kill third shredder / Tank 2 has 6 stacks -> kill fourth shredder

    Tank 1 6 stacks -> kill fifth shredder / Tank 2 4 stacks -> kill 6th shredder

    Should I change tank swap order in anyway to maximize ursol usage/tank dps on mines?

    Any help would be nice. Thanks guys!

  2. #2
    We tanked all adds next to the boss aside from the first one while using a similar strategy with the debuff stacks as you plan on using, and just had both tanks DPSing the adds as much as possible. The only downside is that our melee had to run out just a tad for death from above.

    This makes a lot of position related things easier. Healers didn't have to worry about keeping both tanks in range, tanks didn't have to worry about dodging anything, tank swaps were clean, etc.

    Hopefully that answers your question about Ursol's vortex.

    As for tanks, I'd say use the BM. He's more geared, BM monks do more DPS, and consistently take less damage from the stacks. Prot Paladins could be useful with the self/raid healing they provide but this isn't really a heal intensive fight outside of empowered magnets, and you can just use cooldowns for those.

  3. #3
    Deleted
    Speaking from experience, prot paladins have a significantly easier time with the "1" position on this fight. Precast ES into Judgment, glyphed AS and Holy Wrath with as many SotRs as HoPo allows is one of very few sure-fire ways to kill the first Shredder before the 4th, extremely unpleasant overload - neither monk nor druid has a comparable combo that will allow you to avoid it with 100% reliability.

    I'd also contend, having done both the 10-man Such Dodge, Very WoW strat pre-nerf, and having done the 25-man This Fight Has Missiles? strat post-nerf, that 10-mans that opt to do mines rather than just not suck and dodge stuff are clinically insane. Despite the HP nerf, mines are a complete PITA to handle outside of certain very niche raid comps, and you'd be better off just dodging shit - it really isn't so bad now that everyone has Heroic gear coming out their ass and Superheated has been nerfed. Doing the If You Can Dodge A Wrench, You Can Dodge Missiles strat also has the rather important side benefit of starkly reducing the amount of belts you need to not fail on - and you will fail many belts even with this strat.

  4. #4
    Dreadlord Captainn's Avatar
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    I found to be mines a lot easier. More stable, not moving too much. I dunno I hate moving as a tank :P

  5. #5
    We did tank 1 take 3 stacks kill shredder then take 1 more stack (so tank 1 has 4).

    Tank 2 then takes more stacks and so on. This way when the second shredder comes one tank has 4 stacks and the second has 2 and it can be killed on the boss without too much effort. I'm not sure what tank would be best to roll with. Palas have a lot of on demand burst, no idea about monks but they do great damage so I'd imagine either will work.

    @Praise the sun. We tried tons of times killing mines on the belt. The other combo was just hell for us. If one person derps just 1 in 10 attempts its a wipe every time. Mines make the fight a lot longer but more predictable. This and the difficulty stays at a constant. With no mines it swings wildly between 0 and 100.
    Last edited by Deja Thoris; 2014-05-10 at 01:06 AM.

  6. #6
    Deleted
    Monks do high sustained damage but are, in my experience, generally one of the worst choices to do first shredder. All they have is Keg Smash-BoK-BoK, maybe lvl 30 talent, and if it isn't dead by then, you're screwed. They have no real execute or on-demand burst of the kind a prot warrior, prot paladin, or hell even a DK with SR can muster.

    To be fair, if you can somehow make the druid taking first shredder work, Monks with RJW do an absolutely obscene amount of mine damage, so there's that, if you're dead-set on not doing drills.

    Again, though, doing any variation of a mine strat extends the fight by 2+ minutes, which is several more belts on which you can and will fail. Coupled with the inherently higher baseline difficulty mine strats bring in 10-man due to paucity of AoE slows, grips, etc, I can only recommend avoiding mines whenever possible. If you're only doing mines because you don't think you can dodge drills then to be very blunt, you have no business killing Siegecrafter in the first place.

  7. #7
    I am Murloc!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Speaking from experience, prot paladins have a significantly easier time with the "1" position on this fight. Precast ES into Judgment, glyphed AS and Holy Wrath with as many SotRs as HoPo allows is one of very few sure-fire ways to kill the first Shredder before the 4th, extremely unpleasant overload - neither monk nor druid has a comparable combo that will allow you to avoid it with 100% reliability.

    I'd also contend, having done both the 10-man Such Dodge, Very WoW strat pre-nerf, and having done the 25-man This Fight Has Missiles? strat post-nerf, that 10-mans that opt to do mines rather than just not suck and dodge stuff are clinically insane. Despite the HP nerf, mines are a complete PITA to handle outside of certain very niche raid comps, and you'd be better off just dodging shit - it really isn't so bad now that everyone has Heroic gear coming out their ass and Superheated has been nerfed. Doing the If You Can Dodge A Wrench, You Can Dodge Missiles strat also has the rather important side benefit of starkly reducing the amount of belts you need to not fail on - and you will fail many belts even with this strat.
    Really? We've been doing mines only approach prior to the nerfs, and since early November. They are incredibly easy to handle with even the worst compositions imaginable.

    Mines make the fight probably one belt longer in length on 10 man if you opt to do it. Belts shouldn't be an issue now because there is no longer stress in killing them, which was the prime reason we had deaths when they had 25% more health and people had awful gear. Doing mines frees up positioning and allows you to use the whole room, regardless of gear getting hit by something bad when the second or third overload is going off is potentially going to spell death. We opted for mines for this very reason as it gave people more room to move around, it also makes positioning a joke.

    For the boss itself paladins and warriors are far superior to the rest at killing shredders. DKs are okay, and druids/monks are awful. We did the following.

    Tank 1 gets 3 stacks and kills shredder 1, then gets one more stack (4 stacks total) and kills shredder 2. Resets stacks after this.
    Tank 2 gets 6 stacks, and kills shredder 3, then comes back and gets one more stack (7 stacks) and kills shredder 4. Resets stacks after this.
    Tank 1 gets 5 stacks, and kills shredder 5.

    During progression tank 1 (me) would come back if I killed it fast enough to get a 6th stack and deal with shredder number 6. You should be able to kill the boss between shredder 5 and shredder 6, and certainly before the the 7th one comes out. I always tanked the shredders (the first two) away from the group because we ran with 2 melee and didn't want to hassle them with moving around even more than they had too.

    We did it this way because monks (our second tank) are awful at killing shredders, especially the first ones with low stacks and we would consistently get a fourth overload. You can certainly deal with fourth overloads, but it makes the encounter way harder if they go off, and if they go off at critical times you pretty much can't take even a small source of damage as a healer/DPs without dying. Our monk only did two shredders and he does them with 6 and 7 stacks. Monks have OP CDs for dealing with the debuff and with this many stacks they obliterate the shredder anyway.

    When the boss is around 15%, you can safely ignore that assembly line, assuming everybody is alive.

    But yeah there are multiple ways to do the encounter but saying that mines are incredibly hard is really false. They die really quick to FF and any group should be able to at least snare them for a couple seconds, knock them back at least once or throw out a stun. Every group usually has to deal with at least one empowered mines, our strategy just uses two empowered mines, but also several non empowered mines. Non empowered mines die to pretty much everything lol. We generally don't deal with laser and non-empowered missile because they restrict the room.

  8. #8
    We just killed the fight last week. We did about 30 pulls with the missle strat and ultimately decided to do most of our pulls with the mine strat. Mines can be annoying but just make the fight so much simpler. Most importantly, there is no randomness in positioning, and the raid knows exactly where they're going and when for the most part. Tanks can also DPS shredders immediately. Fight may take a bit longer but I definitely think its worth it. Just make sure you drag the boss to where the mines are spawning and have people emphasize mine slows/stuns/knockbacks/roots and of course, damage.

    Oh, another thing, have your engineers use the EMP generator instead of rocket boost. 30 yard radius AoE 3 second stun with no diminishing returns is crazy good for mines.. especially if you have 5 engineers (or more) like our group did.

  9. #9
    Deleted
    I as brewmaster tank, take the add first, get 3 stacks, kill the shredder, the other paladin tank get to 3 stacks and does the same, after that we just taunt over when the add spawns, because going up high stacks might couse wipes because u forgot to pop a cd but you can definetly go up high to like 6

  10. #10
    you get a new debuff every 17 sec

    Would this work?

    T1, T2
    1,0
    2,0
    3---> T1 kills 1.shredder with 3stacks. T2 has 0 stacks
    3,1
    3,2
    4,2<--- T1 runs back to boss and gets his 4th stack
    4,2--> T1 kills 2.shredder
    4,3
    4,4
    4,5--> T1 loses his stacks, T2 kills 3.shredder with 5 stacks
    1,5
    2,5
    3,5--> T1 kills 4.shredder, T2 loses stacks
    3,1
    3,2
    4,2 <-- T1 gets 4th stack
    4,2--> T1 kills 5.shredder

  11. #11
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by HeroicMythic View Post
    you get a new debuff every 17 sec

    Would this work?

    T1, T2
    1,0
    2,0
    3---> T1 kills 1.shredder with 3stacks. T2 has 0 stacks
    3,1
    3,2
    4,2<--- T1 runs back to boss and gets his 4th stack
    4,2--> T1 kills 2.shredder
    4,3
    4,4
    4,5--> T1 loses his stacks, T2 kills 3.shredder with 5 stacks
    1,5
    2,5
    3,5--> T1 kills 4.shredder, T2 loses stacks
    3,1
    3,2
    4,2 <-- T1 gets 4th stack
    4,2--> T1 kills 5.shredder
    That's more or less the order my guild has always used, apart from the 2nd Shredder. The "1" tank can get a 5th stack shortly after it spawns and still get it miles away from the raid before DfA, so I usually take a 5th stack, and the "2" kills 3rd shredder with 4 stacks instead.

  12. #12
    We played it a bit riskier and had tanks go up to 6/7 stacks at times. This allowed us to tank it in melee at the small cost of having melee run out for death from above.

    The hits get pretty high but our DK tank was able to neutralize every other one with AMS and had other CDs for the rest. We had some issues with tank deaths early on but I had everyone with externals turn on the countdown for Electrostatic Charges in DBM and made sure everything was being done to keep tanks alive before the hits. Set up a rotation with all the externals we had as well as made sure the tank tanking the next charge stack had a PW:S and a decent DA on them as well.

  13. #13
    Alot of helpful comments. Thanks alot guys!

  14. #14
    Deleted
    Even though we killed it with the "dodge everthing" strat i can only think the mines strat is signifcantly easier. The tanks alone can do an absurd amount of damage to the mines before they even get the chance to move.

  15. #15
    Deleted
    When I did this on my prot paladin and my co tank druid we did like this.

    We tank the boss by the mine spawnpoint so opposite of the conveyor belt.

    I start tanking and take 3 stacks, then I run to the middle and pop avenger and kill my shredder then go back.

    I wait until the druid has 2 stacks then I taunt for my 4th stack and then we kill the shredder at the boss, he tanks all the way until he get 6 stacks wich at the point my stacks are gone, I then take 4 stacks again and we still take the shredder on the boss, after that it should be a kill.

  16. #16
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vedni View Post
    We tanked all adds next to the boss aside from the first one while using a similar strategy with the debuff stacks as you plan on using, and just had both tanks DPSing the adds as much as possible. The only downside is that our melee had to run out just a tad for death from above.

    This makes a lot of position related things easier. Healers didn't have to worry about keeping both tanks in range, tanks didn't have to worry about dodging anything, tank swaps were clean, etc.

    Hopefully that answers your question about Ursol's vortex.

    As for tanks, I'd say use the BM. He's more geared, BM monks do more DPS, and consistently take less damage from the stacks. Prot Paladins could be useful with the self/raid healing they provide but this isn't really a heal intensive fight outside of empowered magnets, and you can just use cooldowns for those.
    We used to the same strategy except we kicked our melee during progress and went full ranged setup ^^

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by PraisetheSun View Post
    Speaking from experience, prot paladins have a significantly easier time with the "1" position on this fight. Precast ES into Judgment, glyphed AS and Holy Wrath with as many SotRs as HoPo allows is one of very few sure-fire ways to kill the first Shredder before the 4th, extremely unpleasant overload - neither monk nor druid has a comparable combo that will allow you to avoid it with 100% reliability.

    I'd also contend, having done both the 10-man Such Dodge, Very WoW strat pre-nerf, and having done the 25-man This Fight Has Missiles? strat post-nerf, that 10-mans that opt to do mines rather than just not suck and dodge stuff are clinically insane. Despite the HP nerf, mines are a complete PITA to handle outside of certain very niche raid comps, and you'd be better off just dodging shit - it really isn't so bad now that everyone has Heroic gear coming out their ass and Superheated has been nerfed. Doing the If You Can Dodge A Wrench, You Can Dodge Missiles strat also has the rather important side benefit of starkly reducing the amount of belts you need to not fail on - and you will fail many belts even with this strat.
    The tactics aren't better or worse. They might be better suited for your specific raid because of reasons, but considering we've been killing the mines in our alt raid with a ranged setup consisting of 1x lock and 1x boomkin (and a hunter that's on the belt so doesn't really count) and 3x melee, I'd say it isn't really that hard to do. As long as there's some kind of slow down they're painfully easy to avoid and dies mostly to accidental cleave (1.4M hp? Yea, ok).
    Meanwhile we had issues with missiles where you'd be forced to choose between stepping into fire or taking a missile hit, and the damage needed on the missiles to get rid of them is basicly equal to the bombs (except more movement because of the clockwise pattern they spawn in).

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