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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post

    Not everybody will make it to 545, or even close to that necessarily. In fact, I'd go as far as saying the vast majority of players in the game won't get anywhere near it. I think your point about a spec playing differently as you gear up is compelling, actually, just as I found it compelling when healers were supposed to "grow" from using Heal to using Greater Heal - we're effectively talking about the same thing.

    But I think that it's a fundamental design flaw when levelling warriors, or those just starting out, can't press buttons because they're not getting Raging Blow to proc. I think it makes the rotation feel slow, pedestrian and unenjoyable.
    If they don't even make it to 545 their opinion on how the class should play is kind of irrelevant and uninteresting, in my opinion. Beause 545 (which is just an aproximation by the way) is extremely easy to get if you were even remotely interested in the game/class, it's basically clear flex every now and then, and upgrade some gear. Not saying they shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion, but a lot of the top end warriors on these forums are intelligent enough to realize that fury has serious issues early on, we've gone through it and afaik ALL of us have voiced our concerns about it.

    You can call it a design flaw. That's fine, and I believe that's the best way to put it. However, Blizz has already addressed the early xpack issues to some degree with the implementation of a static 30% crit rating to BT (and I've mentioned in another thread why I think it should be higher). And yes, fury currently feels all of the things you mentioned if badly geared, which is why everyone on these forums suggest people to go arms until they're better geared. That might not be the most appealing or elegant solution, but that's what we're stuck with. But then again, there are several specs that are pretty horrible to play at lower ilvls, like boomkin (no crit and low haste, 2+ seconds starfire casts + no starsurge procs.. yay) or any rogue spec (shitty energy regen).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    But if you think I'm going to be spoken to like he chose to speak to me, and just take it, it's best he knows who I am. Had someone spoken to me like that in real life, I'd have taken their head from their shoulders - it's just not how mature adults converse.
    Because adults go around decapitating each other, right? x)

  2. #42
    Would rather see it go to Arms than be removed or made a talent. Remove it for Fury and replace it with something else more fitting.

    Main complaint with it is that it forces you to work purely around it for a significant amount of your damage and is a bit too calculated for Fury. The "tacticalness" so to speak doesn't fit so much for the Fury Warrior who is supposed to be more like a raging berserker thrashing through targets. He shouldn't be throttling himself for Smash.

    It fits perfectly for Arms however which is more about using superior weaponskill to systematically take down a target. It also has more interesting effect for Arms who throttle a hair but get a priority change up during.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2014-05-11 at 12:32 AM.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Would rather see it go to Arms than be removed or made a talent. Remove it for Fury and replace it with something else more fitting.

    Main complaint with it is that it forces you to work purely around it for a significant amount of your damage and is a bit too calculated for Fury. The "tacticalness" so to speak doesn't fit so much for the Fury Warrior who is supposed to be more like a raging berserker thrashing through targets. He shouldn't be throttling himself for Smash.

    It fits perfectly for Arms however which is more about using superior weaponskill to systematically take down a target. It also has more interesting effect for Arms who throttle a hair but get a priority change up during.
    I totally agree, and I wish Blizz would have the resources(time/devs) to change it. But there's a possibility they do not, so for now we have to assume that a 6 second CS window is what we're going to be stuck with.

  4. #44
    High Overlord Gisen's Avatar
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    I suppose being a massive cunt is okay, as long as you're a special someone on a internet forum and online game, or anywere really, wait what?
    I make a song entirely about Straight Shota and eroge and this is where you draw the line? -Ken Ashcorp
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  5. #45
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    If they don't even make it to 545 their opinion on how the class should play is kind of irrelevant and uninteresting, in my opinion. Beause 545 (which is just an aproximation by the way) is extremely easy to get if you were even remotely interested in the game/class, it's basically clear flex every now and then, and upgrade some gear. Not saying they shouldn't be allowed to voice their opinion, but a lot of the top end warriors on these forums are intelligent enough to realize that fury has serious issues early on, we've gone through it and afaik ALL of us have voiced our concerns about it.
    The thing is, it's extremely dangerous to simply write-off those who aren't in raiding gear. The assumption you're making (and I'm not saying it's wrong) is that everyone can get the gear if they raid... But the overwhelming majority of players don't. Organised raiding turns most people off, for a great many reasons I won't go into, which means getting up to 545 is "challenging". I despise LFR but have no intention to do organised raiding again, and the only reason I've got the gear I have is because I filled in a few times when the guild I'm in socially needed a tank.

    Also, let's not forget those who stick largely with PvP will never get to the level where Fury becomes manageable. We shouldn't argue that they don't know their class or can't play the game, but they're never going to make Fury work (and obviously we know that Arms dominates in PvP) and their commentary should be taken seriously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    But then again, there are several specs that are pretty horrible to play at lower ilvls, like boomkin (no crit and low haste, 2+ seconds starfire casts + no starsurge procs.. yay) or any rogue spec (shitty energy regen).
    For what it's worth, I think they all need fixed. I don't think "gearing up" should ever be a solution for a spec that doesn't function without making players raid.

    To me, that means the spec itself is busted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Because adults go around decapitating each other, right? x)
    Well... Yes.

    If I spoke to someone the way Collision spoke to me in person, I'm damn sure I'd be expecting a fist coming at my face at a pretty reasonable speed.

    That's why people don't speak that way in real life, and just on the Internet.

    Anonymity, however, doesn't make it okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Would rather see it go to Arms than be removed or made a talent. Remove it for Fury and replace it with something else more fitting.

    Main complaint with it is that it forces you to work purely around it for a significant amount of your damage and is a bit too calculated for Fury. The "tacticalness" so to speak doesn't fit so much for the Fury Warrior who is supposed to be more like a raging berserker thrashing through targets. He shouldn't be throttling himself for Smash.

    It fits perfectly for Arms however which is more about using superior weaponskill to systematically take down a target. It also has more interesting effect for Arms who throttle a hair but get a priority change up during.
    Funnily enough, I think Sudden Death fits the Fury kit a little better. It's unpredictable, which is how one would expect a half-dressed drunk to fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Gisen View Post
    I suppose being a massive cunt is okay, as long as you're a special someone on a internet forum and online game, or anywere really, wait what?
    Some of it was a bit much, but you have to understand that a lot of us have been seeing the same tired arguments over and over about CS not feeling "furious". A lot of us don't want to see a spec we really enjoy changed by people who have little concern about skillful play, all in the name of RP. There's been a lot of buzz by this crowd lately, and I'm a bit concerned about the possibility of Blizzard actually entertaining these ideas of dumbing the spec down.
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  7. #47
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    Some of it was a bit much, but you have to understand that a lot of us have been seeing the same tired arguments over and over about CS not feeling "furious".
    That's not an excuse, Bloodletters. You're a top player in a top guild, and managed to disagree without resorting to... That.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    A lot of us don't want to see a spec we really enjoy changed by people who have little concern about skillful play, all in the name of RP. There's been a lot of buzz by this crowd lately, and I'm a bit concerned about the possibility of Blizzard actually entertaining these ideas of dumbing the spec down.
    And that's why I've tried to retain that gameplay for those who do like it, while trying to come up with something else for those who don't. And while I've stuck to the more objective concerns about Colossus Smash, it's unfair to suggest that those who say what they "feel" aren't making legitimate complaints. For the majority of players, feel is far more important than performance and trying to sideline that completely is ridiculously arrogant.

    For the record, that's not what I'm implying you've done or are doing. Like Archimtiros, I tend to appreciate your commentary when I read it. Unfortunately, the vast majority of threads I read about Fury as a design issue tend to get dragged into "its fine look at logs rofl" which is utterly beside the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  8. #48
    I realize my post is adding to the mess that comprises the previous 2 pages of this thread but I simply could not restrain myself from posting. All this bickering is wasted energy... and means absolutely nothing in the end. Why not wait until we see some definitive changes that are presented for testing before making our minds up about what is best for the warrior class.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    That's not an excuse, Bloodletters. You're a top player in a top guild, and managed to disagree without resorting to... That.



    And that's why I've tried to retain that gameplay for those who do like it, while trying to come up with something else for those who don't. And while I've stuck to the more objective concerns about Colossus Smash, it's unfair to suggest that those who say what they "feel" aren't making legitimate complaints. For the majority of players, feel is far more important than performance and trying to sideline that completely is ridiculously arrogant.

    For the record, that's not what I'm implying you've done or are doing. Like Archimtiros, I tend to appreciate your commentary when I read it. Unfortunately, the vast majority of threads I read about Fury as a design issue tend to get dragged into "its fine look at logs rofl" which is utterly beside the point.

    you are an annoying casual player that had some patently (to everyone informed) bad ideas about changing the class, you made a post on one of the cutting edges of the theorycraft community with some of the best warrior minds on the internet, have brought ZERO credibility to your posts since you haven't played the class at all levels and you've made claims that you couldn't back up, had other people dig through your sources and still come up short.

    but you don't see it for some reason. you think you're going to win someone over with your misinformation. you have a right to your opinion but we have the right to dissect it and tell you why it's wrong. and it is.

    and now you're going to cry the cry of the casual "elitists are being mean to me and berating me just for having opinions!"


    If you want to talk to me about wow theorycrafting or anything really: Eranthe#1639

  10. #50
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windowflip View Post
    Reading this Thread has made my weekend.
    Don't make him angry, you wont like him when he's angry.

    Basically, unless you are a good warrior, your class design feedback is useless. Why? Because you can't play the spec to begin with. So there is no possible way you can make an informed decision on what needs to be done anyway.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Gisen View Post
    I suppose being a massive cunt is okay, as long as you're a special someone on a internet forum and online game, or anywere really, wait what?
    Basically, a few people here put a lot of work into helping others, making the sim-c module the best for any class in the game, and in general making the warrior therycrafting community one of, if not the best at both developing tools but also helping others learn to play their class better. Namely, Collision, Archi, Sarri, Anders and a few others.

    So if someone comes on here spouting BS with nothing to back it up, and still defends it even when he's told its BS, we're not going to really care. The argument wasn't even "you can't have an opinion if you don't have teh gears". It was "your opinion is of very little weight since you have no experience to back it up."

    It'd be like me telling NASA astronauts needs parachutes, or telling LeBron James he should drink protein shakes to become better at basketball.

    Why? Because we can fix bad. We can't fix stupid.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Would rather see it go to Arms than be removed or made a talent. Remove it for Fury and replace it with something else more fitting.

    Main complaint with it is that it forces you to work purely around it for a significant amount of your damage and is a bit too calculated for Fury. The "tacticalness" so to speak doesn't fit so much for the Fury Warrior who is supposed to be more like a raging berserker thrashing through targets. He shouldn't be throttling himself for Smash.

    It fits perfectly for Arms however which is more about using superior weaponskill to systematically take down a target. It also has more interesting effect for Arms who throttle a hair but get a priority change up during.
    I'd rather take the Berserker that knows when to go full Derpmode, than I'd take the one that whirls down a cliff of boredom. Like... REALLY whirls down a cliff of boredom..

  12. #52
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    This thread, quite inadvertently, paints exactly why this community has gone down the toilet.

    Here are some examples of very interesting commentary.

    Quote Originally Posted by Windowflip View Post
    Reading this Thread has made my weekend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    Collision for President. I've said I love you before, right? <3

    That response should be sticked so when anyone says something stupid it can just be copy pasted 10 times to make sure they understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by thabris View Post
    Anyone with less clout on the forums would've gotten infractions for these.
    Quote Originally Posted by Warriorsarri View Post
    PS: Before you talk smack about Collision, you may want to know who he is...
    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    And I wouldn't say that you, from that post of yours, behave like the "socially intelligent person with loads of interesting spare time activities and friends" like you try to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    While coolisions post was aggressive, it was apt.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    Some of it was a bit much, but you have to understand that a lot of us have been seeing the same tired arguments over and over about CS not feeling "furious".
    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    you are an annoying casual player that had some patently (to everyone informed) bad ideas about changing the class, you made a post on one of the cutting edges of the theorycraft community with some of the best warrior minds on the internet, have brought ZERO credibility to your posts since you haven't played the class at all levels and you've made claims that you couldn't back up, had other people dig through your sources and still come up short.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Basically, a few people here put a lot of work into helping others, making the sim-c module the best for any class in the game, and in general making the warrior therycrafting community one of, if not the best at both developing tools but also helping others learn to play their class better. Namely, Collision, Archi, Sarri, Anders and a few others.
    In short, heroic raiders seem to think it's perfectly acceptable for one of their own to come into a thread, speak to one of its posters as if they were something scraped from one of their shoes, and then react defensively when said poster bites back because he or she isn't a child who'll be cowed by someone who clearly believes playing a video game makes them a bit of a hero.

    Cue a collective closing of ranks, wringing of hands, and desperate projection that you're somehow the victims, and that it's perfectly okay to behave like an ignorant and arrogant child, but it's not okay for the treatment to be returned.

    How dare a non-heroic raider present his thoughts on a known problem!

    How dare they think they may consider something we've not considered!

    How dare they answer back when our posts have the most leet of venom!

    WE are the chosen of game design, for it must logically follow that because WE can download mods and use stat weights to tell us how to play a video game, WE must therefore be the most charismatic, bright, educated and imaginative of all the earth's creatures! Let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the deeps, for it is a simulated number; it's number is six hundred and sixty wipes...

    And you wonder why normal, socially adjusted people despise and laugh at you. But, because no elitist screed is complete without insults, there's also a bit of this tossed in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Why? Because we can fix bad. We can't fix stupid.
    Brilliant.

    I'd say you should all be ashamed of yourselves, but I doubt any of you really have the self-awareness to manage it. Hell, I fully expect the moderators to completely look over what's gone on in this thread despite it having crossed the line several times. But that's cool, as you are now all aware, I'm comfortable arguing with each and every one of you. I've been impressed by nobody.

    But what a sad state the world is in when common courtesy is considered superfluous when compared to a laughable pissing contest on the Internet.

    Enjoy defining your lives by the numbers on an armoury page.

    Peace.
    Last edited by The Caretaker; 2014-05-11 at 03:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  13. #53
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Fury main problem is the dependency on crit, not CS. Even considering it a problem, you don't need to get rid of CS, make it a buff that only affects your primary target or keep it an attack but unable to parry... I mean, I'd love to see CS being fury only if we could get a mastery that make us bypass armor for arms, but that will never happen.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    This thread, quite inadvertently, paints exactly why this community has gone down the toilet.
    seems like you're the only one in the thread complaining about getting chastised. not to mention i think you're probably the only one here that's actually gone so far as to threaten violence as of yet.


    If you want to talk to me about wow theorycrafting or anything really: Eranthe#1639

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    This thread, quite inadvertently, paints exactly why this community has gone down the toilet.

    Here are some examples of very interesting commentary.
    You've proposed a change that could be done to CS, among other things, and have been shown via the information you claimed that backed your statement up as to why the change you'd like is a very bad change. Rather than continue to offer possible changes to CS that could serve as a compromise between both camps you have stubbornly refused to take their advice and as such any further serious discussion with you is pointless.

    Edit: Belated quote tag fix
    Last edited by Trubo; 2014-05-11 at 03:58 AM.

  16. #56
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    No, we think its ok to say your opinion holds very little weight, because, well, it does.

    In essence, you have no clue WTF you are talking about, and your opinion is worthless.

    People need to realize most of the time your opinion is shit, unless you can back it up with 1.) Reasons/math etc or 2.) Experience.

    You have neither. Ergo, your opinion is far less valid than anyone else. Hold one if you like. But it's like a freshmen law student thinking the supreme court is stupid because they disagree with a court opinion.

  17. #57
    Zelliviren, you're getting way too emotional over this. I get that you may feel like people are attacking you, some posters do come off that way. Why, exactly would it upset you that I find the argument about the Fury Spec not being furious as being tired one? I've seen it on these forums. I've seen it on the WoW forums. I've seen it on Twitter. There aren't a lot of people saying it. Just a few and they keep saying it over and over. I feel as though the source of all of that is Matt Rossi. You even referenced him in your posts.

    I generally do think an argument can stand up on its own merits, you don't need to be a heroic raider per se but there is a certain understanding that is lost on a person who's never experienced that setting, or played the spec at that item level. Surely, you'd have to see that.

    My problem with this thread is that it made a few very disingenuous assertions. You asserted that Fury is being played less. You then referred to a blog, which I found on my own accord, read it, and could find no confirmation for your assertion. Even though the onus is on you to prove that, anyway.

    You also implied that CS was one of the reasons for Fury being played less, and you referred to Ion Hazzikostas acknowledging there was a problem, or something to that effect. Well, the data from the blog didn't support that, and I looked through Ion's Twitter posts in the past two months and the most I saw was a brief statement about them looking into it and if I had to guess that was said before the new glyph was announced. I know he said that in early April.

    From what I've seen, your argument against CS implied that it could be attributed to the decline in Warrior representation in the more casual community and that you essentially do nothing when you're not in CS. The first argument about Warrior representation was dismissed, and with my knowledge and experience playing Fury I could dismiss the idea that you're not doing anything outside of CS, outright. Though, logs and simcraft could certainly verify that as well.

    So ultimately, it comes down to the lack of a strong argument. You don't necessarily need heroic experience to have good ideas, it helps, but the problem is I don't know that you realize the potential negative impact it could have by taking the most fundamental ability of the Warrior class and turning it into a talent choice.
    Last edited by Bloodletters; 2014-05-11 at 04:00 AM.
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  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    It's not a question of misunderstanding it, Juni. It's a question of it being a problem when a spec flat-out doesn't function in lower levels or in crap gear.

    Not everybody will make it to 545, or even close to that necessarily. In fact, I'd go as far as saying the vast majority of players in the game won't get anywhere near it. I think your point about a spec playing differently as you gear up is compelling, actually, just as I found it compelling when healers were supposed to "grow" from using Heal to using Greater Heal - we're effectively talking about the same thing.

    But I think that it's a fundamental design flaw when levelling warriors, or those just starting out, can't press buttons because they're not getting Raging Blow to proc. I think it makes the rotation feel slow, pedestrian and unenjoyable.
    If that is truly your pain point, then there are many solutions that don't rely on messing with the rotation.

    The one that Blizz seems settled on testing in the PTR, if current alpha tooltips via Wowhead are an indication, is giving BT a fixed crit boost (30%) instead of doubling it.

    This should boost crit at low levels and not have it scale as high.

    Voila.

    I'm sure there will be tons of other tweaks over the coming months.
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  19. #59
    Mechagnome esoterickk's Avatar
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    This thread is hilarious. Getting upset because people don't agree with his idea/baseless claims. Thanks for the laugh.

    CS is a great part of Fury IMO - for the reasons many posted above. ^_^

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Juni View Post
    The game is for everyone, that goes for scrubs and elitist assholes alike..
    Well with this being right - I would guess the first party seems to be way more open to a change to cs and I just really can't see what's so wrong with that apart from some parties here seemingly getting pretty mad by the proposal and by the reception of it. I personally still would settle for the tiger palm solution via a glyph though. I don't think it would matter if it would end up the clearly worse variant like the inquisition glyph. Anyways pretty amusing I have to admit. I still hope they change arms because it plays like shit.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2014-05-11 at 06:04 AM.

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