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  1. #1
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Question Colossus Smash as a talent.

    As someone who generally hates Colossus Smash, and who thinks it's a large part of why players don't play Fury anymore, it's good to see the likes of Hazzikostas consider making the attack a talent. In essence, it should work just as it does now (20 second cooldown, 6 second 100% ArP debuff) and this would also mean that the new glyph (duration 20 seconds, 40% ArP) would continue to work as currently planned.

    Pretty simple.

    For me, I think this is the most elegant solution to an attack that was something of a busted flush to begin with. We shouldn't pretend Colossus Smash doesn't have a chequered history because, frankly, we know it does. It was introduced in Cataclysm, giving warriors an ArP mechanic in the expansion after ArP was removed as a troublesome statistic, and Blizzard have essentially failed to balance it properly ever since; particularly in PvP.

    So, if we make Colossus Smash a talent, we have two large considerations to take under review:

    1) Fury and Arms would have a rotational gap to fill.
    2) Protection could conceivably pick up Colossus Smash.

    Starting with the first consideration, it's true that Fury and Arms would need something with which to fill the gap that's been left behind. Luckily, we can look back at warriors pre-CS to find the simplest answers. Fury could see Whirlwind replace Colossus Smash, with its rage cost and damage re-tuned in order to make it work while Arms could see Sudden Death proc Execute rather than Colossus Smash, effectively being a direct replacement in the rotation.

    So far, so good.

    The second issue is potentially more complicated but, actually, it needn't be. If Colossus Smash was taken as a talent for tanks, what would be the net result? Well, not a lot. The Protection rotation is hardly overbearing as it is, and Colossus Smash could potentially provide an additional damage boost that wouldn't necessarily be difficult to tune.

    However, the biggest issue with Protection (and something that I think is actually positive) is the implications of Gladiator Stance. Gladiators will effectively lose Revenge in their rotation, to an extent, which would mean another rotational attack would make sense and could provide some interesting gameplay.

    To this point, what we've effectively done (crudely, but we've done it) is remove Colossus Smash for those that dislike it, ensured it's still available for those that do, and kept the glyph for those who sort of like it but find the six-second window on the undesirable side.

    A wider issue, and arguably a secondary one, is what tier Colossus Smash should go onto. It's difficult to find an appropriate tier, because we're talking about a rotational attack which is something that doesn't necessarily fit in any of the current tiers. To me, that implies a need for an entirely new tier in order to make the choice compelling. In order to free up a tier, here's the route I'd take:

    Tier 1 (15): Juggernaut, Double-Time, Warbringer
    Tier 2 (30): Enraged Regeneration, Second Wind, Impending Victory
    Tier 3 (45): Storm Bolt, Shockwave, Dragon Roar
    Tier 4 (60): Mass Spell Reflection, Safeguard, Vigilance
    Tier 5 (75): Avatar, Bladestorm, Ignite Weapon/Gladiator's Resolve

    In short, I've removed the tier including Staggering Shout, Piercing Howl and Disrupting Shout and replaced Bloodbath with Ignite Weapon/Gladiator's Resolve. This is because I'd prefer to see Piercing Howl as baseline, and warriors don't need either Staggering or Disrupting Shout at all with Pummel and Intimidating Shout as baseline. I've replaced Bloodbath because Ignite Weapon is a DPS increase, similar to Avatar and Bladestorm, while Gladiator's Resolve should arguably come in before level 100 to give players a chance to learn it before end game.

    That leaves our tier 6 talents, at level 100, for an entirely new tier that includes the following:

    Colossus Smash: Smashes a target for 175% weapon damage plus 2218 and weakens their defenses, allowing your attacks to bypass 100% of their armor for 6 sec, and causes the Physical Vulnerability effect on the target.

    Rend: Wounds the target causing them to bleed for X damage plus an additional Y, based on weapon damage, over 18 sec. Ignores armor.

    Now, these are two rotational attacks for those that like them - Colossus Smash can work two ways thanks to the glyph, and Rend making a comeback would make a lot of players happy because I, and a lot of people I know, really liked it. Hell, glyphs could be used to make it even more interesting. However, it's worth noting that we've already replaced the rotational talents with Whirlwind and Execute respectively; as a result, the third talent on this tier should be something passive so that those who don't want another attack don't need one. I offer this:

    Lambs to the Slaughter: Your Mortal Strike, Bloodthirst and Shield Slam cause the Slaughter effect, which increases the damage of your Overpower, Wild Strike and Revenge by 25%. Stacks twice. Lasts 18 sec.

    So, now we have the passive DPS increase for those that don't want another rotational attack, while retaining Colossus Smash gameplay for the players that like it, bringing back Rend for those who miss it, and providing a bit more depth to the potential of Gladiator's Resolve.

    Clearly, my tuning numbers would need fixed but I think this is a pretty good solution to what I've already mentioned, while also sexing up a talent tree that, frankly, isn't very interesting.

    What do you guys think?
    Last edited by Amulree; 2014-05-10 at 01:55 PM.

  2. #2
    If they make it 100 % armor bypass on players again then I'd be up for it to become a talent. Otherwise no.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerevar View Post
    If they make it 100 % armor bypass on players again then I'd be up for it to become a talent. Otherwise no.
    The way the game is supposedly being retuned, I see no reason why they couldn't.

    That said, why does it matter to you? In a philosophical argument like this, is there a specific reason you'd dislike it as a talent if it stayed as less ArP on players?

    I don't really understand your issue.
    Last edited by Amulree; 2014-05-10 at 01:58 PM.

  4. #4
    Where are you getting your information that Fury isn't played anymore? Fury is one of the top 5 most played specs in heroic raiding, last time I've checked. Arms is the spec that isn't played much anymore in competitive PVE environments, anyway. That is in one of the top 5 lowest played specs in heroic raiding. From what I've noticed, heroic raiders would rather play Fury whenever there is an option.
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  5. #5
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    Can't speak for anyone else, but the current fury playstyle with CS is why I love the spec so much. I'll be pretty sad if it's changed.

  6. #6
    High Overlord Vecayse's Avatar
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    ^Same. Also why make it a talent? Isn't everyone just going to pick the talent then? What's the point?

  7. #7
    sounds like a nightmare to balance. it will never happen. they couldn't even balance 100% colossus smash on players. what makes you think they want to completely change the warrior playstyle and balance it in umpteen different scenarios


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  8. #8
    Herald of the Titans Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Fury Warriors have a very high representation and is one of the most competitive specs (ranking against other fury wars, I mean), the highest I believe is warlocks (go figure).

    Not that the idea is bad but you hit the biggest issue: where would it go and what would it compete with? It would need a whole new tier.

    Really though, the amount of people who dislike CS is outweighed by the people who do, people who are happy just tend not to complain. That said, what do you dislike so much about CS?

    I ask because so many arguments I see are complete bullshit, like the comment above. "I don't like it because it isn't 100% against players."
    What in the hell does that have to do with dis/liking an ability? That is a tuning issue and frankly not something you will ever notice unless you are eyeballing numbers while pvping.
    I won't pretend the ability is perfect, especially in PvP, but many arguments stem from people who simply never bother to use the ability correctly and so decide it must change.

  9. #9
    High Overlord Vecayse's Avatar
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    The argument that really boggles the mind is. "It's not very warrior-like!" ...?

  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodletters View Post
    Where are you getting your information that Fury isn't played anymore? Fury is one of the top 5 most played specs in heroic raiding, last time I've checked. Arms is the spec that isn't played much anymore in competitive PVE environments, anyway. That is in one of the top 5 lowest played specs in heroic raiding. From what I've noticed, heroic raiders would rather play Fury whenever there is an option.
    Using representation in heroic raiding really isn't a very compelling argument, because heroic raiders will gravitate toward specs that perform well; and in high-end gear, with higher quality players, Fury performs well. The other snag is that heroic raiders are an extremely small percentage of players, which means the game shouldn't be designed around them.

    But look at Fury warriors outside of heroic raiding.

    You'll notice that you can't... Because there are so few of them. Now, clearly, we can't argue that Colossus Smash is the sole reason for this. Personally, I think the obscene reliance on critical strike is the bigger issue because the spec just doesn't play without constant procs of Raging Blow. But Colossus Smash has been a problem since its inception, and Fury warriors are extremely rare because effectively doing nothing for 14 seconds while waiting for your window isn't fun gameplay to a great many people.

    As hinted, because you don't see Fury warriors outside of heroic raiding guilds, we could argue that it's not fun for most people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Twansition View Post
    Can't speak for anyone else, but the current fury playstyle with CS is why I love the spec so much. I'll be pretty sad if it's changed.
    It wouldn't be. My suggestions preserve it, while also giving a chance for those who dislike it to avoid it.

    Quote Originally Posted by vecayse View Post
    Also why make it a talent? Isn't everyone just going to pick the talent then?
    No, not everyone will pick the talent. In fact, I think it'd be very interesting to see who would. It's anecdotal, but my gut tells me that most people wouldn't take it or, if they did, they'd use the glyph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    sounds like a nightmare to balance. it will never happen. they couldn't even balance 100% colossus smash on players. what makes you think they want to completely change the warrior playstyle and balance it in umpteen different scenarios
    Because the developers clearly accept that Colossus Smash is an issue. They fact they've designed a new glyph for it, and Ion Hazzikostas has mentioned on Twitter that they're looking at making it a talent, means they think there's an issue. Also, the work by the peerless Cynwise clearly shows that warrior populations are falling and Fury is particularly on the slide.

    As for balance, yeah - I think that's a legitimate concern. However, it's a bigger issue in PvP and giving players (and developers) options means they can have more knobs to tune in order to make it work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Really though, the amount of people who dislike CS is outweighed by the people who do, people who are happy just tend not to complain. That said, what do you dislike so much about CS?
    I'm sorry, bud, but you just can't make a statement like that. It's true that people who are happy enough tend not to complain, but I've seen far more people supporting Colossus Smash as a talent than those who want to leave it like it is. As for me personally, my dislike for it stems from the way it's implemented. For Fury warriors, the frothing-berserkers, it simply feels... "Off". Sat around for 14 seconds, not doing a lot, waiting to pile all your rage into a single window just doesn't feel very furious. In comparison to the WotLK version, where you literally got stuck in and whirlwinded the crap out of everything, it just feels far too stale.

    The other issue I have is that it's too punitive outside of top-end gear, which is something Blizzard have spectacularly failed to fix, despite rage normalization. If you can't line up your Raging Blow procs, which in lower gear you can't, the DPS loss simply isn't accounted for anywhere else and there's nothing you, as a player, can do about it.

    It's just unbelievably awkward.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I ask because so many arguments I see are complete bullshit, like the comment above. "I don't like it because it isn't 100% against players."
    What in the hell does that have to do with dis/liking an ability? That is a tuning issue and frankly not something you will ever notice unless you are eyeballing numbers while pvping.
    I won't pretend the ability is perfect, especially in PvP, but many arguments stem from people who simply never bother to use the ability correctly and so decide it must change.
    Yeah, tuning doesn't interest me because it's not really relevant to the point. When I bring up the apparent contradiction in removing ArP as a stat and then bringing in Colossus Smash, it's not because I thought ArP-gearing was particularly compelling. It wasn't. It's no more compelling than crit-gearing. My problem is that it's a clunky mechanic that I believe is contributing to a real problem with Fury representation outside of heroic raiding.

    To me, it's a significant issue and one (you'll notice) I've tried to solve without removing the playstyle for those who legitimately enjoy it.

    And that's always my question about Colossus Smash:

    Who actually enjoys it? Or do players just accept it because it's functional in good gear?

    My money's on the latter, largely because I've yet to see a player who's not a heroic raider argue that they like it. I think that's very telling.

    Quote Originally Posted by vecayse View Post
    The argument that really boggles the mind is. "It's not very warrior-like!" ...?
    The thing is, for reasons suggested just above this quote, it's really not.
    Last edited by Amulree; 2014-05-10 at 05:16 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    You'll notice that you can't... Because there are so few of them.
    you are talking out of your ass. show us some numbers that say fury is only popular in heroic raiding.

    hint: you can't, because you don't know how many warriors there are in the world and you don't know what spec they are and what they enjoy doing the most.


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  12. #12
    Colossus Smash is fine as it is.

    And for Fury in general, If people do not enjoy a spec centered around Critical Strike then there is other specs in the game for those players.

  13. #13
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    you are talking out of your ass. show us some numbers that say fury is only popular in heroic raiding.

    hint: you can't, because you don't know how many warriors there are in the world and you don't know what spec they are and what they enjoy doing the most.
    First: stop flaming, please. There's no need.

    Second: go check out Cynwise's work on populations and you'll see where the data is coming from.

    If you're not familiar with the work, that is a failing on your part and not mine. Your aggression impresses nobody.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beastyn View Post
    Colossus Smash is fine as it is.

    And for Fury in general, If people do not enjoy a spec centered around Critical Strike then there is other specs in the game for those players.
    As hinted above, check out Cynwise's work on the topic. I don't think Colossus Smash is fine as it is, and telling people to just go play a different spec or class isn't solving anything; it's just not a meaningful contribution to the topic.

  14. #14
    People who like CS boggle me when the proposal includes a way to actually keep and support the current play style, and they are against it.

    If you had a hundred dollar bill and someone said "hey you can keep your hundred dollar bill and you can also have this other 100 dollar bill", are you going to say no?

  15. #15
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensim View Post
    People who like CS boggle me when the proposal includes a way to actually keep and support the current play style, and they are against it.

    If you had a hundred dollar bill and someone said "hey you can keep your hundred dollar bill and you can also have this other 100 dollar bill", are you going to say no?
    Well, this is it. What I've proposed actually retains Colossus Smash, exactly as it works now, but provides some different options for those who don't like it. There's literally no loss, so why anyone would complain via that route completely escapes me.

    My suggestion allows those who like Colossus Smash to keep it, those who sort of like it to adapt it, and those who fundamentally dislike it an alternative. The only things "lost" are Staggering Shout, Disrupting Shout and Bloodbath.

    If someone wants to argue to keep those, then that's a debate worth having.

    Arguing that I can't know if Colossus Smash is a problem, when the designers themselves are reviewing it, is about as irrelevant to the topic as you can get.

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  16. #16
    Immortal Jester Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Well, this is it. What I've proposed actually retains Colossus Smash, exactly as it works now, but provides some different options for those who don't like it. There's literally no loss, so why anyone would complain via that route completely escapes me.
    It takes away the option to choose another talent though if you do enjoy Colossus Smash, and lets be honest, it's rather lackluster when Blizz takes a current ability and turns it into a talent, and even then, I don't believe they've normally taken a huge part of a rotation out of it to make it a talent. If even they're considering it, that doesn't mean they won't come to the decision that "It's too integrated with the rotation to change it now"
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  17. #17
    Pretty sure I don't particularly like the other proposed talents but I like the idea. The shout talent tier would be a good candidate for a rework anyways.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Amulree's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    It takes away the option to choose another talent though if you do enjoy Colossus Smash, and lets be honest, it's rather lackluster when Blizz takes a current ability and turns it into a talent, and even then, I don't believe they've normally taken a huge part of a rotation out of it to make it a talent. If even they're considering it, that doesn't mean they won't come to the decision that "It's too integrated with the rotation to change it now"
    But the ability to use Colossus Smash, as now, is not lost and the talents I've suggested aren't in the game; that means there are only gains from this suggestion, and no losses whatsoever (other than the ones I mentioned above). Your point is the same as arguing that we don't have a choice to use Shockwave, because Dragon Roar or Bladestorm is better, and that's one of the fundamental design philosophies behind the entire talent tree. Something as troublesome as Colossus Smash, which there's evidence to suggest is at the root of Fury's malaise (accompanied by its gear dependence), is a prime candidate to be taken out of its baseline position in my opinion.

    I'm proposing more choices than there are now, and that's a fact.

    That said, I think you have a point about removing a rotational ability and putting it back in as a talent - it's certainly on the lackluster side. But this particular attack, with its numerous problems, is something of an exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by cFortyfive View Post
    Pretty sure I don't particularly like the other proposed talents but I like the idea. The shout talent tier would be a good candidate for a rework anyways.
    They're in there because I personally liked Rend and LttS, but also because of my reasoning as to what I think really needs to be on that tier to compete with Colossus Smash. If there's something you prefer, even something entirely new, let's talk about it.

  19. #19
    I'd rather they fix fury's choke hold dependance on crit that anything to do with CS.

    Currently;
    If you do not crit, you cannot use Raging Blow (without using Berserker Rage first)
    If you do not crit you do not become Enraged. If you are not Enraged, your Mastery isn't being applied at all.

    Fury can be frustrating to play at low gear levels because of the amount of crit found on gear. At the moment you need to get up to what 30% or so crit before the rotation starts to really flow. But it just isn't possible to hit that level of crit at lower gear levels.


    At level 91 Fire Mages will now get
    Enhanced Pyrotechnics
    Requires Mage (Fire)
    When your Fireball or Frostfire Bolt fail to critically strike a target, you gain a 5% increased chance for Fireball or Frostfire Bolt to be a critical strike for 15 sec.

    This effect ends when Fireball or Frostfire Bolt successfully critically strike a target.

    It's not much, but it's definitely a boost at lower levels of crit.

    The difference between critting and not critting isn't just hardcasting an ability vs. instant casting it for Fury like it is for Fire, it's the difference between not being able to use it at all and actually getting to use it, plus on top of that it's the difference between an entire stat being applied or not being applied.

    Most DPS masteries are basic things like increases your overall damage by X% or increases the damage of certain abilities by X%, the difference being these effects are applied 100% of the time, whereas for a fury warrior his mastery isn't.


    I like the Fury playstyle, I like having a massive two hander in each hand ans furiously swinging them destroying stuff, but I hate being gimped because of bad RNG.
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  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    Using representation in heroic raiding really isn't a very compelling argument, because heroic raiders will gravitate toward specs that perform well; and in high-end gear, with higher quality players, Fury performs well. The other snag is that heroic raiders are an extremely small percentage of players, which means the game shouldn't be designed around them.

    But look at Fury warriors outside of heroic raiding.

    You'll notice that you can't... Because there are so few of them. Now, clearly, we can't argue that Colossus Smash is the sole reason for this. Personally, I think the obscene reliance on critical strike is the bigger issue because the spec just doesn't play without constant procs of Raging Blow. But Colossus Smash has been a problem since its inception, and Fury warriors are extremely rare because effectively doing nothing for 14 seconds while waiting for your window isn't fun gameplay to a great many people.

    As hinted, because you don't see Fury warriors outside of heroic raiding guilds, we could argue that it's not fun for most people.
    Yes, representation is a compelling argument if you use it properly. Fury certainly performs better than Arms at single target damage. Though cleave and any type of sustained AOE situation, Arms comes out well ahead.

    Not every class has such huge disparities in their representations. Fire and Arcane have almost identical representation and Frost isn't far behind it. Survival and Beast Mastery have very similar representation.

    For plenty of people, heroic raiding is done. They can play what ever they want, Arms certainly isn't such a hindrance that you can't do well on any fight, but there doesn't seem to be very many people switching to Arms.

    The problems outside of heroic raiding, have to do with the issues with crit scaling. You don't do " effectively nothing" outside of CS. Most of your damage comes outside of CS. This has already been shown with simcraft. We do about 45% of our damage inside of an ability that's up about 30% of the time. Certainly, our damage is concentrated inside of that but I'm almost always GCD capped so this idea of sitting around doing nothing is completely foreign to me.

    The problem isn't the CS ability, it's crit scaling for the most part. You seemed to agree with that earlier, but still managed to cram your dislike for CS into it.

    It's like, all of you guys are so desperate to fix a warrior spec that doesn't need it. Rather than the one that does, which is Arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post
    go check out Cynwise's work on populations and you'll see where the data is coming from.

    If you're not familiar with the work, that is a failing on your part and not mine. Your aggression impresses nobody.
    LOL, that's a bit much.

    This is what I found



    That's for the entire warrior class, first of all. To infer that that has something to do with Colossus Smash with Fury Warriors is disingenuous.

    What it's showing is that the class went up in popularity in 5.1 but then gradually receded down to where's always been. So the more interesting question to ask would be why did the class gain more so much popularity around 5.1. I can think of a good reason. Arms Warriors were greek gods in arena. Everyone knew it, and I believe they had the highest representation above 1800 of any class in recent memory.

    His blog also shows that Warriors are one of the least leveled characters. Do you really think that has anything to do with CS? Most of the people leveling, probably don't even get CS because it's a level 80 talent and even if they do, they probably don't have a clue what it is anyway.

    Warriors are just not a flashy class and neither are Rogues and as you'd expect they are the two least leveled classes in the game.



    This shows heroic raiding representation, specifically for melee. Fury has been doing well all expansion. I didn't see any data on Fury specifically doing poorly compared to the rest of the Warrior specs outside of PVP, where, I don't know if it's ever been represented well. So, I did your work for you and brought the info from his blog here nad don't see anything related to what you're talking about.
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