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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Because no other class does that. I would see it being removed from one, honestly Arms as it needs a significant rework anyways.
    In terms of pvp, warrior damage revolves completely around dumping everything into CS windows. If CS gets dodged or parried (you can't always help that), you have to pray for a proc or wait for it to come off CD. That's bad design. You CAN do damage outside of it but obviously your effectiveness drops like crazy.

    In terms of pve, lots of bosses spin and even if they didn't, it really sucks having to pool all of your cds and rage into attacking during this one window, having to change your entire rotation based on whether or not it got parried or if you got a proc (arms) or whatever may be happening. It just feels clunky, I've never liked it. I preferred BC/WoTLK dps because it flowed better. I played arms all through Hyjal/BT/Sunwell except on certain fights and it was a very fun rotation. I played fury for most of WoTLK and again fun rotation (I prefer arms and always have but WoTLK fury was the most fun it's ever been) where it flowed well and didn't require me to think "oh CS is coming up I better play with my dick and wait for that".

  2. #82
    After re-reading all the comments I think you are concerned with the wrong thing. You've mentioned that people in lower ilevel are punished more by colossus smash, when that's not even true. If anything, more powerful gear actually makes colossus smash even more important.

    Now, with the following pictures you'll have to ignore the dps numbers. Unfortunately, the ability to add in custom reports for simcraft wasn't added until our WoD-branch, so I can't make them appear in MoP. However, our rotation is effectively the same, so the percentage of damage done inside of CS will still be accurate.

    First, an example of someone who is fresh out of leveling, 460 ilevel.

    http://gyazo.com/372de524d801ee10bf998a98a2c4e706
    % Damage done inside of colossus smash: 46.28%
    Enrage uptime: 66.01%
    dps: 5150.19

    500 ilevel, effectively what ilevel new players start at with timeless isle.
    http://gyazo.com/01ef35ade1f3666bd0d5aa9418bf13a9
    % Damage done inside of colossus smash: 48.18%
    Enrage uptime: 70.88%
    dps: 6964.51

    540 ilevel, which is what flex will give you
    http://gyazo.com/ef05449472d3e8b3a93f77d50af48d42
    % Damage done inside of colossus smash: 48.63%
    Enrage uptime: 77.60%
    dps: 10323.40

    Finally, BIS heroic:
    http://gyazo.com/3ce9156ddeb42e5fcb0c3cbd343b4152
    % Damage done inside of colossus smash: 52.24%
    Enrage uptime: 88.33%
    dps: 18372.26

    The next set of pictures are what happens when I lower the skill level of the player. What simulationcraft does is it will randomly misfire on the action list, skipping lines, ignoring others, resource capping, etc. I've set it at "Average" skill level, rather than elite. This shows how much dps is lost when the player is new/bad/lazy/etc, and also helps us when considering how important colossus smash is. If it were more important at lower ilevels, then there should be a larger percentage of dps lost from people mismanaging it.

    460 ilevel: http://gyazo.com/7f02efb5f858eafb4e9a9fd3757cf749
    4666.21 dps - 9.3% dps lost

    500 ilevel: http://gyazo.com/dae1b173882538b4551f355aa89727ca
    6291.76 dps - 9.6% dps lost

    540 ilevel: http://gyazo.com/d9758271fde301f4c817481c4b91d8a8
    9285.55 dps - 10% dps lost

    BIS: http://gyazo.com/802c54829b16e67ab540f466bae65658
    16483.40 dps - 10.3% dps lost

    If anything, colossus smash only becomes more important as ilevel goes up. The amount of damage that is forced inside of CS increases, and the amount of dps lost from mismanaging parts of the rotation goes up as well. Why is this? What changes with more gear that makes colossus smash more important?

    What difference would more gear make with colossus smash? More gear gives additional crit, haste, mastery and strength. Strength, mastery and haste do not change our rotation whatsoever, with strength/mastery making numbers larger and haste being nearly invisible.

    Crit? Now that's a completely different story. What ends up happening with high levels of gear is that management of raging blow charges becomes more and more important. At lower ilevel, you honestly get a free pass on raging blow because it's near-impossible to not use all of your charges efficiently when there are so many open globals. Higher ilevel grants more raging blows, which means less gcds and more opportunities to screw up by wasting procs.

    At lower ilevels, you can hold on to 1 rb at all times to ensure that it's usable inside of CS, as the likelihood of getting multiple bt crits back to back is low. With 90%+ crit on bloodthirst, that's just not possible. You have to make more difficult decisions, such as delaying BT or chancing that colossus smash will crit when you already have 2 rb charges. Especially if you want to make any use of bloodsurge, which is still semi-important.

    Mastery is a part of this as well, berserker rage goes from "Eh, just use it to make sure that colossus smash is enraged" at lower ilevels to being an incredible dps loss (Relatively-speaking) if used for any other purpose than ensuring maximum enrage uptime. When enrage is a 60% damage increase, not being enraged is big deal compared to 10-30%.

    I think that the issue here is that players are placing too much emphasis on colossus smash, when 55% of your overall damage is done outside of colossus smash. Maybe this is an issue with guides around on the internet, as colossus smash IS important, just not as important as it's made out to be.

    Anyway, back to my original point. I think what you should be concerned about is crit itself, and how at low ilevels it feels like nothing is going on, and that there are open gcds everywhere. That feeling is compressed when you feel as if you need to save resources for colossus smash, and that you really don't have any resources to use in the first place. This is actually a legitimate concern--as much as I hate to admit it to fatalfuror (<3)--and has been something that blizzard has already made a lot of subtle changes to fix in WoD. The playstyle of fury starts out relatively boring/stale, and over the expansion becomes more and more "furious" due to the amount of crit that is added on gear.

    The changes that you are suggesting would do nothing to fix this, as rend would use 1 global every 20 seconds (Similar to CS), lambs to the slaughter doesn't fill any globals, and would become less useful as more crit is acquired for more raging blows.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Uoyredrum View Post
    In terms of pvp, warrior damage revolves completely around dumping everything into CS windows. If CS gets dodged or parried (you can't always help that), you have to pray for a proc or wait for it to come off CD. That's bad design. You CAN do damage outside of it but obviously your effectiveness drops like crazy.

    In terms of pve, lots of bosses spin and even if they didn't, it really sucks having to pool all of your cds and rage into attacking during this one window, having to change your entire rotation based on whether or not it got parried or if you got a proc (arms) or whatever may be happening. It just feels clunky, I've never liked it. I preferred BC/WoTLK dps because it flowed better. I played arms all through Hyjal/BT/Sunwell except on certain fights and it was a very fun rotation. I played fury for most of WoTLK and again fun rotation (I prefer arms and always have but WoTLK fury was the most fun it's ever been) where it flowed well and didn't require me to think "oh CS is coming up I better play with my dick and wait for that".
    The boss spinning thing will not happen in WoD, they're adding in "tech" that even when the boss turns to case a spell, you are still considered behind him.
    Last edited by CollisionTD; 2014-05-11 at 07:29 PM.

  3. #83
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uoyredrum View Post
    In terms of pvp, warrior damage revolves completely around dumping everything into CS windows. If CS gets dodged or parried (you can't always help that), you have to pray for a proc or wait for it to come off CD. That's bad design. You CAN do damage outside of it but obviously your effectiveness drops like crazy.

    In terms of pve, lots of bosses spin and even if they didn't, it really sucks having to pool all of your cds and rage into attacking during this one window, having to change your entire rotation based on whether or not it got parried or if you got a proc (arms) or whatever may be happening. It just feels clunky, I've never liked it. I preferred BC/WoTLK dps because it flowed better. I played arms all through Hyjal/BT/Sunwell except on certain fights and it was a very fun rotation. I played fury for most of WoTLK and again fun rotation (I prefer arms and always have but WoTLK fury was the most fun it's ever been) where it flowed well and didn't require me to think "oh CS is coming up I better play with my dick and wait for that".
    Just a couple things, I completely recognize what you are saying though.

    1) PvP:
    Will always be an outlier. On that note, pvp is designed that way. Take CS out of the equasion entirely, pvp still relies on burst. What happens when you hit all your CDs with a high rage bar, go to town and bam you get poly'd or they get bubbled, whatever. You now sit on your thumbs until CDs are up again. Sure you can apply pressure and do things here and there, but that is at its core the very nature of PvP.
    It is also something the devs have recognized time and again. Lowering CD's in WoD will help immensely I am sure but it is still going to rely on burst, however you get it. I keep coming back to WW Monks because they have the very same problem in Tiger Eye Brew. We will have to see what other WoD changes may help with this but IMHO PvP will always be the outlier on this, and no single change will help.

    2) Bosses Spinning:
    I brought this up back at Blizzcon with the (at the time) Lead Encounter Designer, and have stated it in numerous threads, I have since spoken to a couple devs 1 on 1 about it. It is very much a recognized bug. From my understanding the boss "casts" then targets-spins and executes the ability. For some reason the entire time from starting the cast until executing is supposed to count as "cast time" meaning the boss cannot dodge or parry.
    However, the "bug" is that the boss "casts" THEN targets-spins and executes and that time is not being counted as "cast time". This is being fixed.

    As for your tanks or your own bad positioning, that is not a problem with the ability. I agree the ability could be less punishing (CD reset on parry perhaps) but it is still a player issue, not a design one. It isn't a reason to remove the ability by any means.

    3) Wrath:
    Don't even start. This comes up constantly and I can't be bothered to talk about it anymore. Wrath rotation was a complete joke. CS was added because Wrath rotations were a complete joke. You could literally make a macro and auto hot key it to do it for you with near 100% effectiveness. Yes it was easy. Yes players like that. Developers do not. They want you to think and make decisions that effect your performance, not play whack-a-mole with whatever button lights up first.
    You said it yourself, the rotation didn't require you to think. At all. You can say it flowed but it really didn't. No ability had any interaction with the other, the only "flow" was that none of the abilities CD's ended at the same time, which yes does create a rotation, but it certainly doesn't create flow or even fun play imo. The only reason it was fun is because it was so over tuned and we were so powerful, especially in ICC. Had we instead been undertuned and weak it would have felt absolutely terrible, because no matter how fast we smashed our buttons there would have been no possible way to perform better.
    Now you have to think to perform better. You are rewarded for lining things up, you are rewarded for fitting CS in with cooldowns instead of simply blowing them whenever they are up as in Wrath. You are rewarded further if you can line up those cooldowns with trinket procs or +damage phases, or other mechanics. The game went in that direction for a reason, it will not revert.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by CollisionTD View Post
    The boss spinning thing will not happen in WoD, they're adding in "tech" that even when the boss turns to case a spell, you are still considered behind him.
    jesus christ that's awesome


    If you want to talk to me about wow theorycrafting or anything really: Eranthe#1639

  5. #85
    I generally don't understand the hatred towards CS, I think its an amazing ability(OP in some respects). As someone who's been a warrior since vanilla, warriors in general and fury especially are in the best place they've ever been before.

    If it's the fact that you "have" to use it at a certain time... oh well?... it's called a rotation... doesn't every class have one? I realize we mainly use a priority/timing/CD system but even so. A 6 sec rotation in the midst of a priority system to me is amazing and makes fury game play feel amazing and fluid.

    Personally if you don't like it... play arms? or another class?

    I for one hope they change as little as possible with fury cause in my opinion MoP has surpassed all other versions of WoW and a large part of that has been the fury game play they've managed to build this expansion. Raids have been pretty good too.
    Last edited by Kei01; 2014-05-11 at 10:11 PM.

  6. #86
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    Redacted. Thanks!

  7. #87
    The Lightbringer The Caretaker's Avatar
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    Suddenly, there's a lot for me to get through here. I'm going to have to be brief, but bring up anything I've not commented on that you feel should be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    I do not agree that colossus smash has any balancing concerns.
    Unfortunately, speaking of "balance", it's another of those issues that gets a little mired thanks to its impact in PvP. Burst windows in PvE are fine, and I think the developers generally like the idea of using them because it means that good players are more likely to hold off their burst windows for when they need it on an encounter (possibly taking a hit on their overall DPS). Clearly, a bad player will simply apply the rotation irrespective of his environmental circumstances. The problem in PvP is that Colossus Smash presents the warrior with no choice but to be a burst-bot, alas with significantly more stars to align because warriors in PvP are invariably Arms... So that brings in Sudden Death.

    Warriors are balanced around being able to blow their cooldowns, have plenty of rage, get Colossus Smash up, and be able to stick to a target long enough to apply pressure. They've made multiple changes to try and address this since the attack went in, yet it's still a problem now. Originally, warriors started Cataclysm horribly overpowered - they ended it badly underpowered. Mists has seen them consistently transitioning between too good and no good, again, with multiple changes and fixes attempted to sort it out.

    My specific issue?

    They're changing so many abilities and mechanics in order to accommodate Colossus Smash, when the attack itself looks to be the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    So warriors would go back to old style strong single target, REALLY strong cleave while losing no single target damage. I'd be okay with that except for a couple things. I would probably get bored with a rotation that requires no thought. spend raging blow charges as you get them, bloodthirst on cooldown, whirlwind when that isn't up. There isn't any thought required. I could be okay with this if it was a choice.
    After playing a hunter for a bit of this expansion, I've learned the value of having a reasonable amount of buttons on your bars. Changes have been made, but I tend to think that a class' base rotation should be inherently simple; from there, better players can then pick active (read: rotational) buttons on their talent tree, with the payoff being a higher potential output. If someone was to agree with me and say "fine, make Colossus Smash a talent - but I want a reward for using it", I'd be cool with that. So long as the other talents were tuned relatively closely, and all were tuned to be viable up to and including heroic raids, then nobody would have a right to complain.

    Want the best possible DPS?

    Learn how to use the talent that gives it.

    As for Whirlwind, it's a perfectly reasonable criticism to point out that a single-target and AoE rotation should be different. I used Whirlwind as an example, and it worked well in WotLK, but another attack could be used... Or no attack at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    This is the part of the idea i have the least amount of problems with. It would have very little effect on prot since they're going to tune the numbers anyway. It would just make it so that prot would time its' hardest hitting abilities to happen during csmash, but since they don't have anything specifically designed to interact with colossus smash, it would feel weird or they'd need to change the rotation a bit.
    Funnily enough, the reason I'd like to see Protection get access to Colossus Smash is for gladiators. It'd promote a similar style of gameplay (holding your Shield Rush for Colossus Smash), so those that like the gladiator kit can also have access to the measured playstyle Fury currently has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    The devs took out rend because there's not a lot of compelling gameplay from it. keep it up on your target and that's it. i didn't (and still don't) see any problem with it, but i would really be excited about picking rend back up if it was just a bleed that had no other effect on our gameplay. seems more like a class ability than a talent, since talents are supposed to feel like meaningful choices.
    Rend used to be a fun ability, though, IMHO. Not only was it part of the original Taste for Blood, it was also part of Cataclysm's Blood and Thunder which gave it more gameplay value than most other buttons. If they added the snare to it, rather than Mortal Strike (which has enough going on already), then it'd be a far more interesting button.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    passive damage increases, sweet. this is exactly why they removed the old talent trees and put in the new ones, only slightly more exciting since it only lasts 18 seconds. not to mention, you put it on wild strike so that's going to do weird things to the rotation.
    It doesn't have to go on Wild Strike, and the duration can be altered; I just recall its older problem when it would fall off and the ramp-up would start again. Hell, it doesn't even need stacks. The reason I like a passive increase is because it gives players who don't want an extra button an opt-out. If using the extra button, in this example Colossus Smash or Rend, results in more DPS, then there's no real problem with the concept.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eranthe View Post
    i do not like the idea of making colossus smash a talent, although i could live with it. i don't know how many players stopped playing fury because of colossus smash, but then again, i don't think anyone does know.
    It's a belief of mine, based on anecdotal evidences. We know correlation doesn't equal causation, but I think Colossus Smash is an extremely awkward attack that has a number of design flaws - this is an objective view, particularly because the designers are changing other mechanics in order to accommodate it... Similar to what they did with Vengeance, when the mechanic itself was the problem.

    Anyway, I'm finished work so will get back to the thread a bit later.

    Thanks for the change in tone, I appreciate it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Well, it is possible for people, many people actually, to not think very highly of World of Warcraft. Those self same people may even consider other games in the genre superior due to their own subjective qualifiers. Qualifiers which are just as valid as the subjective qualifiers of those whom believe World of Warcraft is a "23 out of 10".

  8. #88
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zellviren View Post

    Funnily enough, the reason I'd like to see Protection get access to Colossus Smash is for gladiators. It'd promote a similar style of gameplay (holding your Shield Rush for Colossus Smash), so those that like the gladiator kit can also have access to the measured playstyle Fury currently has.
    Shield Rush is Colossus Smash for all intents and purposes, except is is also on the player, not the mob. This is mitigated because it only works on certain abilities instead of all attacks. But really they do the exact same thing. It is the key to their damage and crucial to their rotation.


    Rend used to be a fun ability, though, IMHO. Not only was it part of the original Taste for Blood, it was also part of Cataclysm's Blood and Thunder which gave it more gameplay value than most other buttons. If they added the snare to it, rather than Mortal Strike (which has enough going on already), then it'd be a far more interesting button.
    I just can't agree, do not see how a simple bleed is interesting. Yes they could throw a bunch of conditions on it to make it interesting, but we dont need to be a melee dot class, we have DK's for that, and even Enh Shamans in a sense with Flame Shock.


    It's a belief of mine, based on anecdotal evidences. We know correlation doesn't equal causation, but I think Colossus Smash is an extremely awkward attack that has a number of design flaws - this is an objective view, particularly because the designers are changing other mechanics in order to accommodate it... Similar to what they did with Vengeance, when the mechanic itself was the problem.
    I won't lie it has issues, but it is very much intended to be a part of our gameplay. Plenty of abilities have issues though, you work on them. I also believe the issues are not nearly as big a deal as people make them out to be, or even Colosssus Smashes fault in the first place, eg: the crit issue, or parries.

  9. #89
    Herald of the Titans Snes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    Fury Warriors have a very high representation and is one of the most competitive specs (ranking against other fury wars, I mean), the highest I believe is warlocks (go figure).

    Not that the idea is bad but you hit the biggest issue: where would it go and what would it compete with? It would need a whole new tier.

    Really though, the amount of people who dislike CS is outweighed by the people who do, people who are happy just tend not to complain. That said, what do you dislike so much about CS?

    I ask because so many arguments I see are complete bullshit, like the comment above. "I don't like it because it isn't 100% against players."
    What in the hell does that have to do with dis/liking an ability? That is a tuning issue and frankly not something you will ever notice unless you are eyeballing numbers while pvping.
    I won't pretend the ability is perfect, especially in PvP, but many arguments stem from people who simply never bother to use the ability correctly and so decide it must change.
    My problem with CS is more of a flavour one. I want to feel like a Warrior all the time, rather than feel like a warrior a couple times a minute. Hitting like a wet noodle outside of CS is depressing, and doesn't feel very "furious".

  10. #90
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snes View Post
    My problem with CS is more of a flavour one. I want to feel like a Warrior all the time, rather than feel like a warrior a couple times a minute. Hitting like a wet noodle outside of CS is depressing, and doesn't feel very "furious".
    I've countered that argument a couple times. I feel it is very furious unleashing a series of devastating attacks before recharging, finding a new target and doing it again.

    I like to think of it as more of as cold, calculated and controlled Fury. You don't swing your weapons wildly all the time hoping you find a target. You wait for the opportune moment and unleash all your rage, aggression and hatred in one fell swoop.

    Either way it is nothing more than a philosophical difference which doesn't mean jack because its all opinion. Luckily for you there is a Glyph for that.

  11. #91
    I am Murloc! Baracuda's Avatar
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    Simply removing Colossus Smash is not the solution. But I would prefer it if it worked like Tiger Palm or if it was a buff like savagery/slice and dice.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbarh View Post
    may i suggest you check out wowwiki or any similar site, it's Grom that orders the murder of Cairne

  12. #92
    Moderator sjsctt's Avatar
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    The thing about how it feels to you: it doesn't mean it feels that way to others. There is no counter to the statement, as that is what saying you 'feel' something is: a statement, not an argument, nor up for discussion.

  13. #93
    Herald of the Titans Snes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I've countered that argument a couple times.
    How do you counter an opinion based on subjectivity? Me finding that my warrior doesn't feel very warrior-like is neither correct nor incorrect.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Snes View Post
    How do you counter an opinion based on subjectivity? Me finding that my warrior doesn't feel very warrior-like is neither correct nor incorrect.
    Lol so how is it that something that is subjective can be used as an argument in class design?

  15. #95
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snes View Post
    How do you counter an opinion based on subjectivity? Me finding that my warrior doesn't feel very warrior-like is neither correct nor incorrect.
    *blink* Isn't that what I said?

    Either way it is nothing more than a philosophical difference which doesn't mean jack because its all opinion. Luckily for you there is a Glyph for that.
    Perhaps "counter" is a bad way of putting it, and it should be "given my counter-argument" instead.

  16. #96
    To op:
    I'm not quoting hole post as it's massive. I consider myself casual and untill this patch had never raided heroic.

    There is something extremely satisfying in mastering your rotation. I raided in 5.1 as fury and didn't care much for it but once I started Raiding again in 5.4 and actually leaned the rotation through months of playing it became a lot of fun. Now to your ideas.

    I find your arguments for these changes shallow and without evidence but doesn't mean they shouldn't be discussed. I think your talent change is a bad idea because you don't come up with any way to fill the void for the "difference maker". In the spec. Right now the thing separating good warriors from bad is cs and rb management and you took them both away without a replacement. I think that is what gets a lot of heroic raiders upset by posts like yours because they are invariably followed up with "I like wrath warriors" which means "I like a more simple rotation". Ignite weapon/cs glyph do that already without destroying a rotation. Not to mention why should I someone who likes cs miss out on a new talent choice because you don't. I do think if you took the time to play fury in raids you would see what we are saying but if you don't want to I think you need to realize that trying to balance a game around people that don't perform optimally makes no sense because it would make massive imbalances at the top. And even though most people aren't at the top that Is where gameplay decisions happen. A glyph to help people who can't handle the spec is fine as it doesn't unbalance a whole class. Your changes on the other hand do.

    Ps. Quoting Rossi will never help your credibility

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Baracuda View Post
    Simply removing Colossus Smash is not the solution. But I would prefer it if it worked like Tiger Palm or if it was a buff like savagery/slice and dice.
    This is actually an objectively worse solution. Making it work like tiger palm basically guarantees it's going to be a weaker option (see: the current glyph), and if you make it not an option but a mandatory change, it hurts the people who love CS as it is.



    Frankly, making CS a talent is the best possible way to enable people who like CS to keep it, while offering viable alternatives to people who don't. I've spoken about this before, and made a more in depth thread on the official forums. That said, I disagree with the OP on his specific take on how to implement it. Namely, Lambs to the Slaughter has no real place sitting next to CSmash. They are abilities that fulfill dramatically different roles/needs. Similarly, bringing Whirlwind back into the Fury single target rotation is a really bad idea.

    Here's how I would handle it:
    -Arms gets Execute back for Sudden Death, as per the OP.

    -Fury gains a new ability: Rampage. For every 30 rage spent, Rampage gains 1 charge, this stacks up to 20 charges. When activated, Rampage consumes 5 charges and enrages the Warrior. If there are more than 5 charges currently stored, 1 charge is consumed per second, granting the Warrior 20% increased Haste and Multistrike for the duration. This ability is off the GCD, and if used a second time cancels the Haste/Multistrike buff (retaining any remained charges).


    This gives Fury more control over enrages (making up for the lost Berserker Rage), and adds some interesting gameplay interactions, in a way that makes fury feel well... furious.


    From there you go to modifying talents.
    The OP's Avatar/Bladestorm/Ignite Weapon tier does not work at all. Intead, Avatar should be scrapped (possibly made baseline for Arms), with Bladestorm's tier picking up Ravager and the early alpha Blade Barrier talent. This gives three distinct talents that all boost AoE in a meaningful way that is interesting.

    Ignite Weapon then gets saved and moved into the level 100 tier. So in that Tier you have: Colossus Smash, Rend, and Ignite Weapon. This gives three distinct forms of damage boost, two of which can be tuned to almost any dps value very easily, and all three of which provide the special benefit of a lot of damage ignoring armor. This provides a meaningful choice that affects gameplay, but can be tuned such that the talent are all extremely close DPS-wise (likely with the best one being dependent on fight. CSmash would excel on a fight that favors strong burst, generally any fight with lots of movement/time off target or periods where the target takes increased damage. Rend would likely be best in multi-target situations unless there was a cap put in place to prevent multidotting, and Ignite Weapon could probably be marginally ahead in a patchwerk encounter).

    I'd also switch the Armorpen tier with the defensive utilities, so it comes online a little bit earlier. In the end talents would look like:
    15-Mobility Tier
    30-Healing Tier
    45-Shout Tier
    60-Stun Tier (Note: Stormbolt really needs to get nerfed here to not be the always go-to option)
    75-Armorpen Tier
    90-AoE Tier
    100-Defensive Utility Tier

  18. #98
    Warchief Archimtiros's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secondwind View Post
    60-Stun Tier (Note: Stormbolt really needs to get nerfed here to not be the always go-to option)
    I am not sure I like you anymore. Do whatever you want, but don't touch my Storm Bolt, thems fighting words!

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Archimtiros View Post
    I am not sure I like you anymore. Do whatever you want, but don't touch my Storm Bolt, thems fighting words!
    If stormbolt is going to stay as powerful as it is, it needs to stay in a tier where it's competing with other cooldowns (and also get buffed for Arms). As it stands, since it got switched places with Bladestorm, Stormbolt is brokenly overpowered (the "no duh" option of the tier), meanwhile Bladestorm is now the god-awful option of its tier (see: talent that is at best DPS neutral, more likely DPS loss, on single target, in a damage cooldown tier). The mention of Stormbolt needing a nerf is in context of Stormbolt remaining in a tier alongside Dragon Roar and Shockwave with that being a Stun/CC tier.

  20. #100
    Brewmaster Nurvus's Avatar
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    A way to balance it for PvP, is making Colossus Smash untargetted, hit harder, hit an area in front of you (possibly spread its damage like Holy Wrath), BUT have a meaningful cast time like Slam used to.
    It will feel awesome, feel like a smash, help with AoE and provide the same positive gameplay it does now.
    For PvP, it will be avoidable, and require setup to use properly, forcing you to waste time on a cast AFTER you get an enemy CC'd, considerably shortening your window for burst in most cases.

    Could even get a lower cooldown because of this.
    Last edited by Nurvus; 2014-05-13 at 04:26 AM.
    Why did you create a new thread? Use the search function and post in existing threads!
    Why did you necro a thread?

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