Colossus Smash as a talent.

[Bamzy]

Absolutely hate the play style around CS. This is the first I've heard of the possibility of it turning into a talent, and I'm just so happy right now!

Hopefully they will come up with a talent tier that is competitive, so that it won't end up being the best choice anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

I can appreciate the design intent behind colossus smash and I enjoy it for the most part, but I can't put into words how annoying it is when you apply CS to a target and then have to switch targets, move away from boss, or it dies before you can even spend some GCDs on it. Whether that's a lack of skill on my part, then so be it.

Well, on a boss encounter where you know exactly what's about to happen, it's pretty hard to waste a CS into a target when you know you're about to switch.

[Deleted]

Please dont make CS a talent..

That would mean prot also has access to it, which would mean we're back to casterclysm weaving SS into CS, which i hated with a passion.
Edit. Realized it was the forced talent tree choice together with stance dancing i didnt like, but yeh. Lets keep cs the way it is, ty.

[Pizzakid2093]

I support it being a talent. I've been a warrior for 9 years, and I'll do what I have to. But I have enjoyed the class so so much less since CS came into the game. I know it's personal preference but there is nothing warrior about pooling rage to use your moves in a window. It's about being a furious berserker.

I would love if they brought some option back of anything resembling the wrath and BC play, updated for the modern game

[Archimtiros]

I support it being a talent. I've been a warrior for 9 years, and I'll do what I have to. But I have enjoyed the class so so much less since CS came into the game. I know it's personal preference but there is nothing warrior about pooling rage to use your moves in a window. It's about being a furious berserker.

I would love if they brought some option back of anything resembling the wrath and BC play, updated for the modern game

Except the modern game is smart usage of your abilities in a set rotation. Not a game of whackamole when something comes off cooldown. Wrath was terrible. BC was worse.
It was fun for sure, but it wasn't hard, it wasn't engaging past mindlessly spamming buttons.
Time and again this argument comes up and time and again I scratch my head and wonder if we were playing the same game.

I'm not saying a rotation needs to be super complex, but it needs some depth. Some sense of timing and precision.

[cFortyfive]

Except the modern game is smart usage of your abilities in a set rotation. Not a game of whackamole when something comes off cooldown.

To a certain extend that could be said about a couple of melee specs and yet we didn't have a downfall yet.

[Trubo]

To a certain extend that could be said about a couple of melee specs and yet we didn't have a downfall yet.

Must not browse the DK and Rogue forums much with regards to Frost and Combat/Assassination.

[Pizzakid2093]

Except the modern game is smart usage of your abilities in a set rotation. Not a game of whackamole when something comes off cooldown. Wrath was terrible. BC was worse.
It was fun for sure, but it wasn't hard, it wasn't engaging past mindlessly spamming buttons.
Time and again this argument comes up and time and again I scratch my head and wonder if we were playing the same game.

I'm not saying a rotation needs to be super complex, but it needs some depth. Some sense of timing and precision.

We don't need the button mashing (but it was goddamn fun). I just really hate rage pooling. A rotation is fine, but when the bulk of what you are doing is based around one ability, that is really goddamn boring. Making CS a talent, even if it was a 3-5% dmg increase would at least give us the option of not having to succumb to that play style that more than just a few warriors don't like.

[Deleted]

We don't need the button mashing (but it was goddamn fun). I just really hate rage pooling. A rotation is fine, but when the bulk of what you are doing is based around one ability, that is really goddamn boring. Making CS a talent, even if it was a 3-5% dmg increase would at least give us the option of not having to succumb to that play style that more than just a few warriors don't like.

There are going to be 2 options that remove rage pooling in WoD.
Ignite weapon and the CS glyph, making it last 20seconds. That being said, it shouldn´t be optimal to use either, since it requires less awareness of the player...

There is definitely no need to remove it entirely or make it a Talent (with the obvious problem, that it becomes available to prot).
And I firmly believe there are more than enough player, that enjoy CS the way it is... Btw i forgot to mention Arms, that is another option to basically remove the pooling of ressources...

[Anium]

Making it a talent would be a terrible idea. I really like the way CS works, better before, but still good.

[Pua]

Not a game of whackamole when something comes off cooldown. Wrath was terrible. BC was worse.

Yet the game grew in those expansions, and has dropped ever since. Calling those expansions "terrible" is one Hell of a leap, and not one I'd ever support because it's just not in line with the evidence.

Now clearly, nobody is going to argue that simpler rotations was somehow the reason for success during Outland and Northrend. But think about what it meant; this game has always hemorrhaged players, but during its growth it replaced the ones who left with newcomers. Simpler rotations allow new players to improve and feel mastery for their class (as well as the indirect effect of making raiding less daunting), but it also means that picking up an alt doesn't mean an entirely new set of spells and abilities to bind and learn.

In short, that type of rotation design encourages new players and encourages them to play multiple classes. What you're choosing to call "depth" is the opposite and, worse, it's being done to appease people who are just not going to be challenged by anything the rotation throws at them. While Blizzard chases the dragon of harder and harder raids with harder and harder rotations, they're making it harder and harder for new players to get meaningfully involved. All the while, the top players use simulators and design addons to track what's going on in order to play optimally.

To me, and it's only my opinion, it's flat-out the wrong direction in which to be going. Class gameplay depth for warriors was things like Unrelenting Assault, stance-dancing, Spell Reflect and Retaliation. For me, rage pooling isn't deep - it's just needless complexity that chases me away because it's not fun. And as you can see, there are a great many warriors who feel the same way about it. Perhaps the glyph will provide all the proof Blizzard needs about the Colossus Smash mechanic if the vast majority of warriors, even raiding ones, pick it up.

It's going to be interesting.

[Sunseeker]

I would happily dump Colossus Smash from my rotation for the sheer fact that I love wielding giant weapons, but hate feeling like I have nothing worth doing unless CS is up. Maybe run it like so:
If you take CS: Raging Blow does increased damage, but is only usable while enraged. If you don't take CS, raging blow is usable at any time at a lower damage, but has no cost while enraged.

I dunno. I think something along those lines would create creative variety.

[Archimtiros]

Terrible was with regards to the rotations, not the expansions themselves. I am quite aware that Wrath was an overall successful expansion.

Likewise, the rotation can be simple, and it really is fairly so, without being extremely bland. People also seem to think our rotation is a LOT worse than it is, when in actuality it is extremely fluid and follows a very simple rotation. Especially in our gear. Even entry level T16 gear the rotation is immediatley sustainable. I honestly face palm every time people bring up "rage pooling" because that hasn't been a thing since T14, early T15 at the most. We don't even save RB charges anymore

Before throwing in things like canceling bladestorm, which a very marginal damage increase and thus not even worthwhile to the casual players you aim your argument at, the rotation literally boils down to:

BT - CS - RB - BT - SB - RB - BT - RB - RB/WS - BT - RB - WS/Filler - BT - and so on.

I can understand simply not liking a mechanic like CS. I seriously do not believe it is any worse than other classes similar mechanics, because every class has a gateway ability in one form or another, but that is personal preference.

However, don't come in talking about limits that we haven't seen in two tiers. yes, if you are running around as a fresh 90, the rotation is not that sustainable, but even with basic LFR gear, the rotation works itself our just fine if you simply stop and think about it for a minute instead of rolling face on the keyboard.

I've read all your arguments and they boil down to the same thing: You want an easy game where what buttons you press doesn't matter, as long as you press them you win. I can understand that, though I don't agree with it, but it doesn't change the fact that you make Fury out to be much worse than it really is.

Stance dancing is still in the game, and in a much better way than Wrath. Don't for a minute even try to sell to me that Wrath stance dancing was anything close to gameplay depth. It was macro's pure and simple. There was nothing at all deep to it and you barely/if ever did it. Fury only did before 2x slam bonus and it was a dps loss as often as a gain.

Players are encouraged to play multiple classes by making the classes different, this plays into their flavor, not just animations, but resources, and abilities as well. Making the classes not only play different but feel different while they are doing it is very important in that regard. I get it is something nobody ever wants to hear, but if you (anyone not specifically you) hate Warriors/CS so much.. play something else until when/if they change it?

[Pizzakid2093]

Terrible was with regards to the rotations, not the expansions themselves. I am quite aware that Wrath was an overall successful expansion.

Likewise, the rotation can be simple, and it really is fairly so, without being extremely bland. People also seem to think our rotation is a LOT worse than it is, when in actuality it is extremely fluid and follows a very simple rotation. Especially in our gear. Even entry level T16 gear the rotation is immediatley sustainable. I honestly face palm every time people bring up "rage pooling" because that hasn't been a thing since T14, early T15 at the most. We don't even save RB charges anymore

Before throwing in things like canceling bladestorm, which a very marginal damage increase and thus not even worthwhile to the casual players you aim your argument at, the rotation literally boils down to:

BT - CS - RB - BT - SB - RB - BT - RB - RB/WS - BT - RB - WS/Filler - BT - and so on.

I can understand simply not liking a mechanic like CS. I seriously do not believe it is any worse than other classes similar mechanics, because every class has a gateway ability in one form or another, but that is personal preference.

However, don't come in talking about limits that we haven't seen in two tiers. yes, if you are running around as a fresh 90, the rotation is not that sustainable, but even with basic LFR gear, the rotation works itself our just fine if you simply stop and think about it for a minute instead of rolling face on the keyboard.

I've read all your arguments and they boil down to the same thing: You want an easy game where what buttons you press doesn't matter, as long as you press them you win. I can understand that, though I don't agree with it, but it doesn't change the fact that you make Fury out to be much worse than it really is.

Stance dancing is still in the game, and in a much better way than Wrath. Don't for a minute even try to sell to me that Wrath stance dancing was anything close to gameplay depth. It was macro's pure and simple. There was nothing at all deep to it and you barely/if ever did it. Fury only did before 2x slam bonus and it was a dps loss as often as a gain.

Players are encouraged to play multiple classes by making the classes different, this plays into their flavor, not just animations, but resources, and abilities as well. Making the classes not only play different but feel different while they are doing it is very important in that regard. I get it is something nobody ever wants to hear, but if you (anyone not specifically you) hate Warriors/CS so much.. play something else until when/if they change it?

If you are under the mistaken impression that people who don't like it are all just admin for an easy game you are incorrect. It is not just casuals. I'm in heroic gear, the rotation is obviously very easy(especially with Galakras trinket). It isn't hard, and that isn't the problem. It isn't fun. That is the problem. And it is much worse when you don't have gear, which isn't acceptable design. When your class doesn't function smoothly at all when you are lacking at gear, that is bad design. I have my faith blizzard will give us multiple options in WoD. It seems they are working with arms to try and make it more in like and interesting, and we can only hope they balance glad stance as well as fix the low crit chance problems of fury. I think the real problem here is the lack of choice we have for dps in MoP

[Archimtiros]

If you are under the mistaken impression that people who don't like it are all just admin for an easy game you are incorrect. It is not just casuals. I'm in heroic gear, the rotation is obviously very easy(especially with Galakras trinket). It isn't hard, and that isn't the problem. It isn't fun. That is the problem. And it is much worse when you don't have gear, which isn't acceptable design. When your class doesn't function smoothly at all when you are lacking at gear, that is bad design. I have my faith blizzard will give us multiple options in WoD. It seems they are working with arms to try and make it more in like and interesting, and we can only hope they balance glad stance as well as fix the low crit chance problems of fury. I think the real problem here is the lack of choice we have for dps in MoP

That isn't what I said at all, I said his argument boiled down to that. In fact I specifically said I can understand simply not liking a mechanic like CS.

However; there is a difference between disliking something, wanting to not have to use it, and championing for a mindless Wrath-era rotation. The fun part is very subjective, but our argument was more one of rotational depth.

You also understand though that many classes function worse with less gear (not all to the degree of Fury granted), but that is already addressed with the changes already in place with WoD, and our rotational problems are the direct fault of Critical Strike dependance, not because of CS.
In fact the CS has a larger impact on your damage as gear goes up, while having less gear actually makes CS a smaller concern.


My whole point was that many people damn Colossus Smash without realizing it isn't even the major problem; and without accepting that many of the biggest issues with it have already been addressed.

The three main issues with CS:

1) 6 second windows - Fixed via Glyph of CS for those who want it.

2) Rage pooling/HS spamming - Hasn't been an issue for quite some time, but fixed with Ignite Weapon at level 100 (no HS spamming during CS).

3) Raging Blow/Crit dependency - Has nothing to do with CS really, but already fixed with the (large amount) of stat changes coming in WoD.

[Bamzy]

That isn't what I said at all, I said his argument boiled down to that. In fact I specifically said I can understand simply not liking a mechanic like CS.

However; there is a difference between disliking something, wanting to not have to use it, and championing for a mindless Wrath-era rotation. The fun part is very subjective, but our argument was more one of rotational depth.

You also understand though that many classes function worse with less gear (not all to the degree of Fury granted), but that is already addressed with the changes already in place with WoD, and our rotational problems are the direct fault of Critical Strike dependance, not because of CS.
In fact the CS has a larger impact on your damage as gear goes up, while having less gear actually makes CS a smaller concern.


My whole point was that many people damn Colossus Smash without realizing it isn't even the major problem; and without accepting that many of the biggest issues with it have already been addressed.

The three main issues with CS:

1) 6 second windows - Fixed via Glyph of CS for those who want it.

2) Rage pooling/HS spamming - Hasn't been an issue for quite some time, but fixed with Ignite Weapon at level 100 (no HS spamming during CS).

3) Raging Blow/Crit dependency - Has nothing to do with CS really, but already fixed with the (large amount) of stat changes coming in WoD.

Archy, I don't really understand something about the CS glyph. Finally decided to look it up...

Is it not possible that using the glyph would make our overall output higher?

I was under the impression that the glyph was something along the lines of the Ret Inquisition glyph (or what it used to be anyway), making you slightly less effective in exchange for easier gameplay.

Surely a 100% colossus smash uptime at 40% armour reduction is stronger than what we have now? What am I missing?

Colossus Smash

= 20 sec CD

The duration of your Colossus Smash is increased by 13.5 sec

= 19.5 Sec duration.

but it now causes your attacks to only ignore 40% of the victim's armor

So?

If that ends up being the case than CS will essentially be Slice and Dice that you have to keep up on the target, instead of yourself - but for Warriors.

I may just not understand how Armour Pen works...

[Archimtiros]

Archy, I don't really understand something about the CS glyph. Finally decided to look it up...

Is it not possible that using the glyph would make our overall output higher?

I was under the impression that the glyph was something along the lines of the Ret Inquisition glyph (or what it used to be anyway), making you slightly less effective in exchange for easier gameplay.

Surely a 100% colossus smash uptime at 40% armour reduction is stronger than what we have now? What am I missing?

Colossus Smash

= 20 sec CD



= 19.5 Sec duration.



So?

If that ends up being the case than CS will essentially be Slice and Dice that you have to keep up on the target, instead of yourself - but for Warriors.

I may just not understand how Armour Pen works...

It's about a 5-7% dps loss last I checked. I'll have to sim it again.
It does make the rotation easier. But it does have it's drawbacks. It lets you stretch out your DPS; instead of compressing 8 abilities into 6 seconds, sure those 6 seconds are important, but the next 14 seconds are relatively easy. With the glyph however, all 20 seconds are important, start missing GCD's and you are punished the whole way through.
Personally I think it'd be easier to focus for 6 seconds every 20 instead of 20 seconds every 20.

There is a whole lot more than just that to consider though; its interaction with Headlong Rush and Ignite Weapon for example.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok so I just resimmed with a Warlords version of Simcraft:

At level 90 with current gear, using Storm Bolt and Bloodbath (strongest ST talents), no level 100 talents, basically 6.0:

Wout CS Glyph: 19,299 dps
With CS Glyph: 18,050 dps - ~6% dps loss
In before anyone brings it up - w/ CS and Avatar: 17,404 dps

Bumped it up to level 100 and added Ignite Weapon. Remember the amount of DPS isn't important. We only care about the difference between them.

Wout CS Glyph: 9,991 dps
With CS Glyph: 9,776 dps - ~2% dps loss

Now there are a LOT of things that can't be accounted for yet. The biggest is that DPS tuning will change, along with a host of other things I'm sure. (I'm sure my stats are completely wonky with 90 gear @ lvl 100 too).
As it looks, glyph of CS is a small dps loss.

I still don't think it'll work out as well as people believe though. Things like movement are a whole lot more likely to occur over the course of a 20 second buff than a short 6 second window.
Really I think its there for people who simply don't like the playstyle of a 6 second window, but optimization will almost always favor a normal CS.

[Deleted]

I really don't understand why you constantly try to convince ppl otherwise from how they feel when playing their warrior. It has nothing to do with how skillful a player is, rotation/priority complexity or just a single spell like cs. Some ppl just don't like it, period, they dont find it fun.

In fact the CS has a larger impact on your damage as gear goes up, while having less gear actually makes CS a smaller concern.

I haven't ran any numbers for it but it doesn't feel like you say it does. End geared seems less powerful, being enraged 100% appears far more rewarding. Again can't back it up numbers wise, but it certainly feels like it.

[Archimtiros]

I really don't understand why you constantly try to convince ppl otherwise from how they feel when playing their warrior. It has nothing to do with how skillful a player is, rotation/priority complexity or just a single spell like cs. Some ppl just don't like it, period, they dont find it fun.



I haven't ran any numbers for it but it doesn't feel like you say it does. End geared seems less powerful, being enraged 100% appears far more rewarding. Again can't back it up numbers wise, but it certainly feels like it.

Well I have run the numbers, which is why I say it. Hell Collision posted the numbers in (I think) this exact same thread a few pages back.

And it isn't about convincing people to change their mind about how they feel. I said time and again that some people simply don't like certain mechanics and that is fine. That has nothing to do with the fact that half the arguments against CS are simply bullshit. If I don't like blue cheese, I come right out and say I don't like blue cheese. I don't say I dislike it because of the way it's used to (imo) ruin burgers. I go get a burger without fucking blue cheese.

It doesn't help that these threads pop up once a week either and nobody seems to have bothered to read what was said in any of the preceding ones. It makes the discussion rather tiresome.

However, it does have to do with rotation/priority complexity when people use that as a basis for their argument. Especially when they have never done the proper research in the first place. I ground my arguments in realism. I never said making CS a talent would be a bad thing. TBH I like the idea of an armor pen tier in theory.
But then realism kicks in, and you realize we aren't talking about adding one talent. We are talking about adding three. Three of the most powerful talents Warriros (and most every class) will have ever seen.
Is it possible? Sure, maybe. Is it realistic? Hell no.

TLDR: You can feel however you want; but if an argument is bull, I'm going to fight it.

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Found it, whew this thread has gotten long!
Source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post27005053

After re-reading all the comments I think you are concerned with the wrong thing. You've mentioned that people in lower ilevel are punished more by colossus smash, when that's not even true. If anything, more powerful gear actually makes colossus smash even more important.

Now, with the following pictures you'll have to ignore the dps numbers. Unfortunately, the ability to add in custom reports for simcraft wasn't added until our WoD-branch, so I can't make them appear in MoP. However, our rotation is effectively the same, so the percentage of damage done inside of CS will still be accurate.

First, an example of someone who is fresh out of leveling, 460 ilevel.

http://gyazo.com/372de524d801ee10bf998a98a2c4e706
% Damage done inside of colossus smash: 46.28%
Enrage uptime: 66.01%
dps: 5150.19

500 ilevel, effectively what ilevel new players start at with timeless isle.
http://gyazo.com/01ef35ade1f3666bd0d5aa9418bf13a9
% Damage done inside of colossus smash: 48.18%
Enrage uptime: 70.88%
dps: 6964.51

540 ilevel, which is what flex will give you
http://gyazo.com/ef05449472d3e8b3a93f77d50af48d42
% Damage done inside of colossus smash: 48.63%
Enrage uptime: 77.60%
dps: 10323.40

Finally, BIS heroic:
http://gyazo.com/3ce9156ddeb42e5fcb0c3cbd343b4152
% Damage done inside of colossus smash: 52.24%
Enrage uptime: 88.33%
dps: 18372.26

The next set of pictures are what happens when I lower the skill level of the player. What simulationcraft does is it will randomly misfire on the action list, skipping lines, ignoring others, resource capping, etc. I've set it at "Average" skill level, rather than elite. This shows how much dps is lost when the player is new/bad/lazy/etc, and also helps us when considering how important colossus smash is. If it were more important at lower ilevels, then there should be a larger percentage of dps lost from people mismanaging it.

460 ilevel: http://gyazo.com/7f02efb5f858eafb4e9a9fd3757cf749
4666.21 dps - 9.3% dps lost

500 ilevel: http://gyazo.com/dae1b173882538b4551f355aa89727ca
6291.76 dps - 9.6% dps lost

540 ilevel: http://gyazo.com/d9758271fde301f4c817481c4b91d8a8
9285.55 dps - 10% dps lost

BIS: http://gyazo.com/802c54829b16e67ab540f466bae65658
16483.40 dps - 10.3% dps lost

If anything, colossus smash only becomes more important as ilevel goes up. The amount of damage that is forced inside of CS increases, and the amount of dps lost from mismanaging parts of the rotation goes up as well. Why is this? What changes with more gear that makes colossus smash more important?

What difference would more gear make with colossus smash? More gear gives additional crit, haste, mastery and strength. Strength, mastery and haste do not change our rotation whatsoever, with strength/mastery making numbers larger and haste being nearly invisible.

Crit? Now that's a completely different story. What ends up happening with high levels of gear is that management of raging blow charges becomes more and more important. At lower ilevel, you honestly get a free pass on raging blow because it's near-impossible to not use all of your charges efficiently when there are so many open globals. Higher ilevel grants more raging blows, which means less gcds and more opportunities to screw up by wasting procs.

At lower ilevels, you can hold on to 1 rb at all times to ensure that it's usable inside of CS, as the likelihood of getting multiple bt crits back to back is low. With 90%+ crit on bloodthirst, that's just not possible. You have to make more difficult decisions, such as delaying BT or chancing that colossus smash will crit when you already have 2 rb charges. Especially if you want to make any use of bloodsurge, which is still semi-important.

Mastery is a part of this as well, berserker rage goes from "Eh, just use it to make sure that colossus smash is enraged" at lower ilevels to being an incredible dps loss (Relatively-speaking) if used for any other purpose than ensuring maximum enrage uptime. When enrage is a 60% damage increase, not being enraged is big deal compared to 10-30%.

I think that the issue here is that players are placing too much emphasis on colossus smash, when 55% of your overall damage is done outside of colossus smash. Maybe this is an issue with guides around on the internet, as colossus smash IS important, just not as important as it's made out to be.

[Deleted]

Well you linked exactly what i said. From 460ilvl and 46% to BiS and 52%. 6% doesnt seem much to me, considering that other factors come into play like i said crit->enraged. Hell were talking about 10% dps difference a couple days ago being "ok".

What does feel awesome and fun to me at least, comes from crit unfortunately. Having bt crit almost every time thus rb's between bts and been enraged is enough for me, cs or no cs. So if they made it a talent or not and balance it some either way i dont mind. What i do mind is low crit and i am glad they are giving a base crit to bt although might need some pumping up.

[Sethanor]

as for the base-crit on BT, i dont like it yet ... this is such a huge nerf to x.4 content which in the current design not only cripples dmg but also never lets you get out of the wonky, way too crit-dependent playstyle ... and 30% base-crit isnt a really huge buff to x.0 content either ... a buff yes, but nothing that will make me say "wow, i REALLY want to play fury in the first tier alltho i might not get a perfect rotation all the time" its more like "meh, gonna stick with arms cause if i want huge holes in my rotation i could go back to playing ret" (which wasnt as much of a pain in first tiers as fury was until now ...)

about the CS discussion, i agree with Archimtiros: balance would go bye bye if arpen tier would be added...
the glyph is a compromise like the inq glyph was for ret... its "fair" to get a bit more dps if you micro-manage stuff better imo.

i personally would kinda like to see RB as a base spell (no charges) in the rotation and BT maybe increasing HS dmg on proc or smth like that ... the enrage problem would persist, but at least the rotation could be played smoothly all the time and the micro-management still is somewhat there due to hs-buff handleing.