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  1. #1

    Do you feel Blizzard even pays attention to player trends?

    Obligatory "Not a QQ"

    The Blue tweet on the main page about Heirlooms really drove home the point to me that Blizzard either doesn't pay any attention to player trends or flat out ignores them.

    It wasn't until Cata I actually felt "punished" for not playing 100% dire focused the whole expansion. I'm going to generalize for a moment and speak for the "rule" not the exceptions here. It seems that if you didn't start the expansion and push content with 1 character the whole time than your pretty boned. If you're wanting at this point to break into SoO you're most likely going to look at your pathway and realize it's not fucking worth it.

    Legendary cloak - Mandatory
    Random invite - 540+ ilvl Mandatory
    Linked Achievements - Often Mandatory

    To me, their retort to all of this is "The options and tools are there! LFR, Flex.... uh... LFR, You can do it!" Well, sure I suppose if you could LFR. The wait times are often fucking painful. There isn't a real "success" and you barely can say one "grows" as a player or anywhere near proficient in LFR.

    I understand that it is easier if you have a solid base of support, ie other players and friends who are willing to go with you, but in reality considering seemingly EVERYONE is having attendance issues at this point, support is hard to find.

    This isn't a complaint about LFR, or grinding, or any one thing specific. It just baffles me that Blizzard seems to deny this happens. I know it isn't entirely on them that a large section of their base gets bored and wonders off leaving another section sort of boned but shouldn't they have put SOMETHING in by now? I might only "feel" that it was different during Wrath because of everything being a bit slower paced and isolated to your specific server. I don't know. To me, it really is like they live in their own reality where what the majority end up doing isn't their fault.

    Not sure I got this across as well as I wanted.

  2. #2
    That's one of the reasons for LFR. Takes out the elitist pricks asking for 6000+ gearscore for ICC10.

    Blizzard can not fix players, all they can do is give as many options as possible.

  3. #3
    The Lightbringer Primernova's Avatar
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    I'm sure they do but on the other hand, have no idea how to fix anything properly.

    They have let so many genies out of their bottles and broke so many commonly held rules of how to make a good MMO at this point.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    That's one of the reasons for LFR. Takes out the elitist pricks asking for 6000+ gearscore for ICC10.

    Blizzard can not fix players, all they can do is give as many options as possible.
    I understand and agree. I've wondered if they've ever ran the tracking numbers to see how many of the LFR players actually "progress." I really wanted two of the SoO heirlooms and realized that to get into flex I'd have to do the Leg quest line and then move into LFR which for me would take a few months to reach the required ilvl. Then I realized that there was no way of knowing if I'd actually get the one I wanted in time anyway.

    Then after reading their whole bullshit of "encouraged to run it on alts" posture it made me realize that they live in a fantasy land where they are never short a full raid party and never have to use their own bullshit systems they "think" are solutions. Well, it's either that or that have some fairy wizard data somewhere they've never hinted at or shared.

    Quote Originally Posted by Primernova View Post
    I'm sure they do but on the other hand, have no idea how to fix anything properly.

    They have let so many genies out of their bottles and broke so many commonly held rules of how to make a good MMO at this point.
    I agree...
    But it seems to be that they pay zero attention. Look at LFD and most of the quality of life systems they've put it. It's like they ignore all of the damage and negatives that come from them. I assume that's out of spite or as I commented above because they themselves never actually use them. Though even if they don't, it isn't like they haven't had mountains of feedback and forum posts screaming about the issues thrown at them.
    Last edited by hakujinbakasama; 2014-05-03 at 12:30 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Primernova View Post
    They have let so many genies out of their bottles and broke so many commonly held rules of how to make a good MMO at this point.
    And because WoW is bad it has more subscribers than all other MMORPGs together? Does that claim somehow makse sense to you?

  6. #6
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    The stat squish is probably going to fix this somewhat. With stats being much closer to eachother even among items with a reasonably different ilvl, performance will vary a lot more, and itemlevel won't be able to determine the DPS of a person as intensely anymore. Although even while typing this I feel a bit too optimistic about this, it might be simpler to just keep on preaching and demanding itemlevels.

    Also getting into flex was really not a problem for me... I just joined the high progression raidguild of a few friends and they were more than happy to let me tag along on their weekly flex raids and later on normal raids when they had a spot open. I haven't played MoP since 5.3, and barely even raided during 5.0 and took a break until 5.3, started playing again since about 3-4 weeks ago, but apparently I'm 'ahead of the curve' still. >_>

    Friends are the keys that unlock many doors, especially in MMOs.
    "Civilized men and bloody giants."

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    And because WoW is bad it has more subscribers than all other MMORPGs together? Does that claim somehow makse sense to you?
    WoW has a lot of momentum behind it.

    Do you think it would get so many subscribers if had launched fresh this year without its history?

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer Primernova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    That's one of the reasons for LFR. Takes out the elitist pricks asking for 6000+ gearscore for ICC10.

    Blizzard can not fix players, all they can do is give as many options as possible.
    The PuG scene in MMOs, has been and always will be complete trash. A good guild is where every player should be, but LFR destroyed the concept of a guild... LFR made everything PuGs, and took away what small shred of accountability, server only PuGs used to have, by making them cross realm!

    Someone could have a gun to my head, offer me 10 million dollars and I would still refuse to ever click a button that grouped me for a raid in an MMO with a random queue.

    Never once, I'm completely clean of ever having to look upon such a travesty of game design.

  9. #9
    Immortal True Anarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    And because WoW is bad it has more subscribers than all other MMORPGs together? Does that claim somehow makse sense to you?
    Is Justin Bieber the best singer because he has the most fans, and does McDonalds serve the best food in the world because they have the most customers?
    "Civilized men and bloody giants."

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    And because WoW is bad it has more subscribers than all other MMORPGs together? Does that claim somehow makse sense to you?
    I don't think that was the direction or that's not how I took it. I like WoW a lot, so when I say that it does feel as if it panders to the lowest common idiot please understand I say that out of frustration.

    There was a post on here which linked the 1.1.0 patch notes. I was looking over it with my wife who started in Cata. The more I looked at it the more I thought about all the things that are gone from the game and replaced by systems and player aids I actually would rather not have. Some of them have been nice and almost no brainers (ie mass looting from corpses) but others were huge development systems which had more of a negative impact on the game and players than I'd say they ever could have had any other way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Primernova View Post
    The PuG scene in MMOs, has been and always will be complete trash. A good guild is where every player should be, but LFR destroyed the concept of a guild... LFR made everything PuGs, and took away what small shred of accountability, server only PuGs used to have, by making them cross realm!

    Someone could have a gun to my head, offer me 10 million dollars and I would still refuse to ever click a button that grouped me for a raid in an MMO with a random queue.

    Never once, I'm completely clean of ever having to look upon such a travesty of game design.
    I disagree with PuGs in WoW. In my experience ONLY, I've had WAY more fun with PuGs than any guild I've ever been in. Good guilds are extremely rare from where I sit. I've heard people talk about them but I've never come across one. And even when I hear someone really talk about theirs it's generally the same thing. It's a primary click of close knit players and then the people they occasionally "help" in order to keep attendance up. I'm not really sure how that's better than PuGs.

    Sure they can be frustrating as you can get a bad one but in the end I made friends with PuGs pre LFD.

  11. #11
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch the Conqueror View Post
    Is Justin Bieber the best singer because he has the most fans, and does McDonalds serve the best food in the world because they have the most customers?
    Actually the artists who have the most fans (as in records sold) can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._music_artists and there is Justin Bieber among them, so..yeah...nice try. But i can hear already the argument "Beatles, Elvis Presly, Michael Jackson, Pink Floyd etc" are not "the best".

    So unless you actually go by some measurement, "the best" is subjective..as in "My mother is the best". So..lets say "WoW is the most popular sub based MMO" and everyone can swing that like they want

    OP: If they looked at trends AND followed them, but you observe different in your little world with less data, you would still think they ignore the trend. Do they even need to follow a trend? That is where design decisions come in. I say the change in LFR and flying (if it will ever be no flying in the entire xpac) is not following a trend, it is following the opinion of a minority (because that is what vocal ppl on forums are and even here we don't speak with one voice). I wouldn't be surprised if 5 million people don't even know about the LFR / flying changes because they just don't frequent forums.

    Somebody might be in for a surprise...
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  12. #12
    They probably pay attention to trends, but don't have a clue how to interpret the data properly and implement changes.

    WOTLK was a long time ago, and the game is unfortunately completely different with different developers now, but you remember how they removed Skirmishes because they were apparently 'unused'? How they wanted to replace them with wargames?

    According to arena match history statistics (the feature that existed on the old armory, that helped players see if people were wintrading ect and was removed for no reason), 4/10 of all arenas played were Skirmishes. Now they are introducing Skirmishes in WoD, presenting is a new exciting feature, not something that was needlessly ripped from the game 4 years ago.

    They'll look at Battleground statistics and see that apparently, battlegrounds are the most played instanced content in the game. They wont factor in the fact 50% of all players are bots, with that number going up to 80%+ between midnights and 4am.

    Should Blizzard create content based on player trends?

    I know for a fact they are currently too incompetent to implement anything worthwhile based on the data they receive, they don't take feedback well.

    I remember how the entire PvP community was telling them how Hunter Stampede was bugged at the start of MoP (when it was one shotting people), and they didn't understand for 2 months before fixing. I remember on the PTR when they were putting in TfB for warriors near the beginning of MoP, everyone was telling them 'this is really broken, its bad RNG, heroic strike is one shotting people', it went live and stayed like for 2 months before they realized it was really broken.

    The game was best when talented developers and content creators made the game with a direction and design philosophy in mind, ignoring the 'will players complain' 'is this accessible' questions. Whilst Blizzard have openly abandoned the design they have in TBC/early Wrath, the problem is there aren't any talented developers or content creators working on WoW anymore, so they put in horrible game mechanics that nobody likes and don't fit well in a game like World of Warcraft (monks movement mechanics/'skill shots', subterfuge, 8 second dispel cooldown ect ect ect). Perhaps in WoD I'll think different.

    Though WoW is a business, and you're reminded of it everytime you log into your character pane with the 'shop' icon. If success is based on keeping as many people subbed with as little effort as possible, they're doing well.
    Last edited by Champxoxo; 2014-05-03 at 12:46 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by ct67 View Post
    WoW has a lot of momentum behind it.

    Do you think it would get so many subscribers if had launched fresh this year without its history?
    WoW got ten times the amount of subscribers in the first year it was out than previous most popular game (EQ). You don't get there with momentum alone (think about SWTOR and how it did with notably bigger fanbase) unless you're doing things right and improving the recipe.


    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch the Conqueror View Post
    Is Justin Bieber the best singer because he has the most fans, and does McDonalds serve the best food in the world because they have the most customers?
    Shitty comparison but nice strawman again. JB isn't anything original or a great musician, he's a carefully crafted product (not artist) aimed directly at the top40 market segment. The inane claim I replied to was that WoW is doing everything wrong... Do you think JB would be as popular as it is today if they were doing everything wrong?

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Primernova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    I don't think that was the direction or that's not how I took it. I like WoW a lot, so when I say that it does feel as if it panders to the lowest common idiot please understand I say that out of frustration.

    There was a post on here which linked the 1.1.0 patch notes. I was looking over it with my wife who started in Cata. The more I looked at it the more I thought about all the things that are gone from the game and replaced by systems and player aids I actually would rather not have. Some of them have been nice and almost no brainers (ie mass looting from corpses) but others were huge development systems which had more of a negative impact on the game and players than I'd say they ever could have had any other way.

    - - - Updated - - -



    I disagree with PuGs in WoW. In my experience ONLY, I've had WAY more fun with PuGs than any guild I've ever been in. Good guilds are extremely rare from where I sit. I've heard people talk about them but I've never come across one. And even when I hear someone really talk about theirs it's generally the same thing. It's a primary click of close knit players and then the people they occasionally "help" in order to keep attendance up. I'm not really sure how that's better than PuGs.

    Sure they can be frustrating as you can get a bad one but in the end I made friends with PuGs pre LFD.
    I was a raid healer or ranged DPS in WoW from day one, and was a healer in EQ1 for about 5 years, along with several other side MMOs. At no point in my nearly 20 years of experience of playing MMOs at that capacity, have I ever dealt with a PuG, that was not a collection of complete morons.

    But yes, finding a good guild in WoW will require a server transfer, well used to anyway. Pretty sure every good guild is on like 3-4 servers at this point.

  15. #15
    The Patient Marquize's Avatar
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    None of the "mandatory" things is actually true, except for maybe achievement, but once you have the achievement on one character you have it on them all so it's not really that big of a deal.

    Progressed HC with a dps that didn't have the cloak.
    My guild master has 4 alts, only one with cloak but he pugs full SoO every week with all of them.
    In my opinion, the tools to get it going ARE there, either you're just playing on a dead realm or you're just too stupid to realize it.

  16. #16
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Champxoxo View Post
    They probably pay attention to trends, but don't have a clue how to interpret the data properly and implement changes.
    Yeah...20 years in the industry, one great franchise after the other, the most popular, longest running sub based MMO and they have no clue. Sure, I take your word for that based on..you saying that. Would be easier if you posted with your real name and it turns out you are a market analyst with 10 years of experience, but thois way? C'moooooooon
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    Not sure I got this across as well as I wanted.
    You caveated yourself so much it's not worth arguing your whole post.

    You didn't have to play the whole expansion. I skipped until August and was fully epic-cloaked on three characters by early November. I play casual by MMOC standards but that was pretty much all I did once I levelled them to 90 until they got the cloak. It's more a question of discipline in running the raids etc to get tokens every week. It's not hard and if I got three in parallel without dedicating my life to it then getting the cloak on one should be easily attainable.

    You don't need the cloak to do normal. We still have 3-4 people in our normal raid without the cloak or even gems, and we don't have gear issues on boss. When we started our two main healers each had around 525 ilevel. The main problem is keeping a consistent team together (which you've also noted...) and all the issues with having to keep teaching new people the fights and gearing them up etc.

    The fact that people have attendance issues means that you shouldn't have any trouble getting in guild run. What people need now is basically competent but more importantly reliable raiders with consistent attendance.

    So yes, I think anyone who aspires to heroic mode SoO but is only just starting now is going to have a lot of trouble.

    If you can demonstrate competency with a moderate gear level and can commit to a schedule then getting normal complete is certainly possible. The biggest roadblock though for competent players is more the general attendance issue you mentioned rather than not being able to catch up enough to be useful.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Primernova View Post
    I was a raid healer or ranged DPS in WoW from day one, and was a healer in EQ1 for about 5 years, along with several other side MMOs. At no point in my nearly 20 years of experience of playing MMOs at that capacity, have I ever dealt with a PuG, that was not a collection of complete morons.

    But yes, finding a good guild in WoW will require a server transfer, well used to anyway. Pretty sure every good guild is on like 3-4 servers at this point.
    This is one of those epic moments where you get to look at a person and say....

    "The common denominator of stupid seems to be apparent." lol, just saying. Not EVERYONE in the world can be the problem but you. Arguably, if you spent 5 years in EQ1 that would pretty much surmise you and your personality.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by fixx View Post
    That's one of the reasons for LFR. Takes out the elitist pricks asking for 6000+ gearscore for ICC10.

    Blizzard can not fix players, all they can do is give as many options as possible.

    god aint that the truth...

    I'll never forget taking a break when ToC first released (for personal reasons) and coming back 3 weeks before ICC came out and noticing 2 dramatic changes in both my server and WoW. ilvl & everyone 'n they momma's had Tier armor on. From that point on skill lowered in value, and the flashiness of purples went up.

  20. #20
    The Lightbringer Primernova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    This is one of those epic moments where you get to look at a person and say....

    "The common denominator of stupid seems to be apparent." lol, just saying. Not EVERYONE in the world can be the problem but you. Arguably, if you spent 5 years in EQ1 that would pretty much surmise you and your personality.
    I never said they were a problem, rather funny actually. I just said I had to deal with them.

    Helping morons and hoping some would rise to the top, used to be the MMO way. Now, it's no child left behind.

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