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  1. #21
    Hello guys, regarding this topic, i have a couple of questions that you might be able to help. Ahm, just like the topic starter, i have the grips on my rogue, i could achiev a 72% epeen on epeenbot with my mut spec, but since i started combat i am doing really bad, like 52% epeen. With that said, help me here with this:

    a) During the fight, assume i have 10 scs on my SND and AR/SB just went of CD. I Have ZERO combo points (cp). Should I refresh SnD before poping AR/SB or should I pop AR/SB and then refresh SND when it wears off (which will happen during AR/SB burst)? Same goes for RvS (revealing strike), should i refresh it before AR/SB if i know it will drop during the AR/SB duration?

    b) Let's say i have ZERO CPs and AR/SB just went out CD. Should I get 5CPs before using AR/SB or should i use AR/SB even with ZERO CPs?

    c) About rupture clipping: what is the correct time to clip rupute? Lower than 5scs or lower than 2scs?

    d) Any good addon to make sure u never drop RVS? I am dropping RVS all the time

    e) Could you guys check my logs and tell if there is anything i can improve? All sort of logs here:
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-xtnffdu1u30m51vz/

    - Thank you all.

  2. #22
    a.) Neither AR or SB increase finisher or builder damage therefore using SnD or RvS during them isn't necessarily an issue unless it energy caps you.
    b.) What do you hope to gain by starting AR/SB with combo points? It doesn't increase finisher damage.
    c.) Don't clip it and save yourself a headache (if you even want to use it). You need to clip at under 2 seconds or you waste ticks BUT if you're going to clip it, you need to also pay attention to the bandits guile you had when you put the older rupture up. If you clip a higher BG rupture with a lower BG rupture, that rolled over tick now does less damage. Rupture is such a tiny gain anyway, it really isn't worth messing with optimal clipping.
    d.) Theres probably a dozen... weak auras is probably the most popular for tracking things like that.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    a.) Neither AR or SB increase finisher or builder damage therefore using SnD or RvS during them isn't necessarily an issue unless it energy caps you.
    b.) What do you hope to gain by starting AR/SB with combo points? It doesn't increase finisher damage.
    c.) Don't clip it and save yourself a headache (if you even want to use it). You need to clip at under 2 seconds or you waste ticks BUT if you're going to clip it, you need to also pay attention to the bandits guile you had when you put the older rupture up. If you clip a higher BG rupture with a lower BG rupture, that rolled over tick now does less damage. Rupture is such a tiny gain anyway, it really isn't worth messing with optimal clipping.
    d.) Theres probably a dozen... weak auras is probably the most popular for tracking things like that.
    a) well pointed.

    b) Doesn't increase finisher dmg, but if i start with 5cp i can pop the CD and already get 10scs ahead. Perhaps it may depend on how long will I take to build those 5cps, since delaying AR/SB is a waste of dps.

    c) got it, just let it drop and put it back again.

    d) thx.

    -//-
    Couple of things i wanna highlight here. Most of all should be aware of that already, but since it gave me increased dps on the dummy, here it goes:

    > The delaying of KS can be done as long as u do not use any finishers (i think someone above stated this already). But here's how it works: If you just end using AR/AB and ur KS is off CD, what u do? Usually just use KS and there u go, but u can do more dps if you increase you BG by spamming SS (and rvs if apply), so u can reach higher BG insight. That way you will 99% of the time ending up with - at least - shallow insight. Just make sure you will not waste any CP, ie: if you have 9 CP it do not worth using SS anymore, just KS with whatever u got. Once KS is over, dump those CPs in rup or evis. Also, if you rupture if falling off, u might need to use KS earlier.

    Hope it helps.

  4. #24
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    You should be tracking your BG, it's 4 SS/RvS to get a higher level, you should only "wait" if you can get where you want really fast. Seriously, you almost never want to wait before popping CDS, people are even using KS inside AR/SB to make sure they aren't losing any KS in the end.

    Thing is, you want to control your BG level using anticipation and try to get CDS inside deep insight without waiting for BG while AR/SB or KS are out of CD.
    Last edited by DrArtorius; 2014-05-21 at 01:40 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by falkiendmg View Post
    b) Doesn't increase finisher dmg, but if i start with 5cp i can pop the CD and already get 10scs ahead. Perhaps it may depend on how long will I take to build those 5cps, since delaying AR/SB is a waste of dps.
    If you have 0 CP, and AR/SB comes off CD, you pop it right away. To benefit from what you are saying you have to watch your CD timer and start building CP proactively from when it is under 10 seconds until it is off CD. When it is off CD, only time to delay it is if KS comes off CD at the same time, which I believe first happens for 3rd KS and 2nd AR/SB (that is with non WF heroic AoC).

    Quote Originally Posted by falkiendmg View Post
    The delaying of KS can be done as long as u do not use any finishers (i think someone above stated this already). But here's how it works: If you just end using AR/AB and ur KS is off CD, what u do? Usually just use KS and there u go, but u can do more dps if you increase you BG by spamming SS (and rvs if apply), so u can reach higher BG insight. That way you will 99% of the time ending up with - at least - shallow insight. Just make sure you will not waste any CP, ie: if you have 9 CP it do not worth using SS anymore, just KS with whatever u got. Once KS is over, dump those CPs in rup or evis. Also, if you rupture if falling off, u might need to use KS earlier.
    Again, you should not be delaying KS unless you can get a higher insight with one maybe two attacks. Just because you are not using finishers does not mean you are not losing time on the CD, because the CD isn't only reduced by restless blades. If you waste 7 seconds while KS is up without using KS, you lose that 7 seconds on its CD regardless of how many CP you build in that time. This is another thing you just have to watch your timer and pool CP before it comes off CD and best case scenario you will have 5 CP and 4 anticipation stacks just as it comes off CD.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by falkiendmg View Post
    b) Doesn't increase finisher dmg, but if i start with 5cp i can pop the CD and already get 10scs ahead. Perhaps it may depend on how long will I take to build those 5cps, since delaying AR/SB is a waste of dps.

    > The delaying of KS can be done as long as u do not use any finishers (i think someone above stated this already).
    b.) But you're going to generate those 5cp anyway and still apply them towards reducing the cooldown of AR/SB and also not waste whatever time on ar/sb it takes to generate the 5 cp.

    Delaying a cd pretty much always comes with the caveat that it isn't worth it if delaying will cost you an additional usage. If you're using 4-5 additional builders when KS is off cd, thats at least 8-10 seconds each time which on a 5 minute fight is probably costing you 2 killing sprees.

    @DrArt
    I'm pretty sure its 4 per stage.

  7. #27
    It is 4 SS per Insight level, yes.

    There's no reason to delay AR/SB, generally speaking (ie there are exceptions, but it's related solely to specific boss mechanics). The biggest thing you want to make sure of is that KS is always put on cooldown before AR/SB so that you take full advantage of the faster CP generation in order to reduce the KS cooldown as much as possible, thanks to Restless Blades. An optimal cooldown rotation for Combat is when KS comes off cooldown right before AR/SB, so that you KS, then hit AR/SB immediately afterwards. If you can hit a point when your Bandits Guile also lines up into Deep Insight when these cooldowns are ready, you're golden. But that takes a fair bit of haste. It started happening for me around 575 ilvl, maybe a bit before.

  8. #28
    what has been discussed should be ovious to most endcontent raiding rogue anyway.
    a point i wanted to bring up, that im quite uncertain of, is following scenario:

    AR/SB cd: 3 sec KS cd: ~20 sec CP:4-5~ ... so KS comes off CD right as you have to enter AR/SB... i usually dont KS asap and -if at all- clip till the end of AR/SB, but i'm not sure if early KS into AR/SB would come out ahead.

    the tradeoff if you KS early into AR/SB:
    Gain:
    KS dmg will be higher if you would otherwise drop ar/sb for the ks.
    Ks cd comes off cd earlier

    Loss:
    you're delaying your next AR/SB quite a bit through:
    Energy overcaping (less finishers overall)
    not making full use of SB cp generation (less finishers)

    ... i have my own opinion on this but i'll leave it up for discussion first

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by uctar View Post
    what has been discussed should be ovious to most endcontent raiding rogue anyway.
    a point i wanted to bring up, that im quite uncertain of, is following scenario:

    AR/SB cd: 3 sec KS cd: ~20 sec CP:4-5~ ... so KS comes off CD right as you have to enter AR/SB... i usually dont KS asap and -if at all- clip till the end of AR/SB, but i'm not sure if early KS into AR/SB would come out ahead.

    the tradeoff if you KS early into AR/SB:
    Gain:
    KS dmg will be higher if you would otherwise drop ar/sb for the ks.
    Ks cd comes off cd earlier

    Loss:
    you're delaying your next AR/SB quite a bit through:
    Energy overcaping (less finishers overall)
    not making full use of SB cp generation (less finishers)

    ... i have my own opinion on this but i'll leave it up for discussion first
    For this situation I wait for SB to fall off since its a shorter buff and then I make sure that I am lowest possible energy before using KS during AR. Since our Deep insight should always be going during the end of AR this is optimal because then you have KS doing damage during deep insight. Usually when this scenario happens I am using KS during the last 3-4 seconds of AR just to make sure that KS is benefiting from deep insight, if for some reason I have alot of time on deep insight I might just delay it till 1 sec left on AR.

  10. #30
    real fun is Blade flurry+spree+cloak proc

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazkek View Post
    For this situation I wait for SB to fall off since its a shorter buff and then I make sure that I am lowest possible energy before using KS during AR. Since our Deep insight should always be going during the end of AR this is optimal because then you have KS doing damage during deep insight. Usually when this scenario happens I am using KS during the last 3-4 seconds of AR just to make sure that KS is benefiting from deep insight, if for some reason I have alot of time on deep insight I might just delay it till 1 sec left on AR.
    I think that might be a dps loss, because someone theorycrafted somewhere that it was only beneficial to use KS during both AR and SB. If you're using it in the last 3-4 secs of AR, then SB already fell off.

    Also, if you're actively delaying your use of KS till the end of AR for insight, im guessing theres alot of wasted restless blades procs. AFAIK, only delay KS if you can reach next insight level in 1, maybe 2 attacks.
    Last edited by overdose; 2014-05-21 at 04:20 PM.

  12. #32
    In that scenario deep insight is about to fall off. I'd think that its a bigger dps loss to not use KS during deep insight.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazkek View Post
    In that scenario deep insight is about to fall off. I'd think that its a bigger dps loss to not use KS during deep insight.
    That's assuming that you hit deep insight at the start of every AR/SB, which I don't think is what you were getting at. From what I understand you were saying that you will hit deep insight during AR/SB due to the massive regen, which is true. However, if your KS comes off cd and you're in any insight level you should pop it as soon as you dumped as much energy as you could without capping CPs during AR/SB rather than delaying it to the end just for deep insight.

  14. #34
    Unless you're 100% it won't cost you a usage of killing spree during the fight then don't delay it. 2 normal damage KS is better than 1 +~30% damage KS.

  15. #35
    From my experience using KS is a dps increase during AR/SS when you are on 30% insight. When that happens i just KS right away after dropping my energy bar to the lowest i can.
    Last edited by pkm; 2014-05-24 at 05:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Validity View Post
    If rogues become shit, all they can become is a different type of shit.

  16. #36
    Blademaster Bojos's Avatar
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    KS during ar+sb > KS outside of ar+sb > KS during ar. But this is most likely due to using ks outside of ar+sb always means slightly delaying the cds, I wouldn't recommend stacking ks+ar+sb during the pull for example.

    To make sure you will be able to use KS during ar+sb it's best to preplan and build up cps before entering ar+sb, but delaying it isn't worth it. Some situations it's not worth pooling cps if you're at red insight or a trinket proc, because you will want to pop ar+sb as soon as possible then.

    Keep in mind ks is around 3 sec so you don't really want to use it after 3 sec left on sb, now if you don't manage to get it off before this it's probably optimal to instead get rid of your cps and at the 4 sec mark left on ar start pooling 8-9 cps and then ks, you'll usually be at 1 sec left on ar or it will be completley gone when it's time to ks. Insight levels and trinket procs can ofcourse change this, Let's say 5 seconds left on your haromm's talisman and you're at 2 seconds left on shadowblades, id just pop ks anyway in this situation without waiting for both ar+sb to be over, I can't see any situation where you'd want to use it during just ar though, I guess this might depend on your gear but I never have ks come off cooldown as shadowblades is gone, and there wouldn't be any situation where you would do more damage ks during ar compared to 1-2 sec left on shadowblades or ks outside of both ar+sb, because there's no damage increasing buff that lasts only 3 seconds.

    But really we aren't talking about major dps gains/losses on a patchwerk fight, comptletly ignoring KS because ar+sb comes off cooldown before and because you don't want to stack them would be a major loss though. Fights where cd alignment for adds is important this can result in major gains/losses however and it really is worth it to keep as short cooldowns as possible during these fights + the shortest opener, opening with ambush-rvs-ss-snd-ss-ss-ks on a fight like malkorok if it means you won't be able to ks the adds will be very detrimental, the shortest opener is much safer - ambush-snd-ks.
    Last edited by Bojos; 2014-05-24 at 06:20 PM.

  17. #37
    I would advise against pooling 8-9 cps before hitting KS because either you use a finisher after your KS and waste a bunch more energy because you're pretty much guaranteed to be capped or you hit SS again and waste a cp. Well, at 8 you would only waste one if you got the proc cp.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Sesshou View Post
    I would advise against pooling 8-9 cps before hitting KS because either you use a finisher after your KS and waste a bunch more energy because you're pretty much guaranteed to be capped or you hit SS again and waste a cp. Well, at 8 you would only waste one if you got the proc cp.
    The reason he talks about pooling is so you get the most use out of your AR before Killing Spree. Losing a miniscule amount of energy in order to gain more CP from AR and 10-20 more seconds off Killing Spree is definitely worth it.

    Let me give you an example:

    Base scenario: SB has fallen off, AR 3 seconds left, Killing Spree ready, 5 cp. You could either:

    A) Killing spree. You come out of it energy capped with 5 cp.

    B) Continue casting SS and eviscerate until AR is gone and then you Killing Spree.

    C) Cast SS up to 4-5 anticipation and Killing Spree regardless of AR duration.

    In option A, you lose a lot damage and potential restless blades cooldown reduction BUT you start the cooldown on Killing Spree sooner.
    In option B, you get some reduction on ShadowBlades/AR but you lose both the restless blades reduction on KS AND the reduction from time.
    In option C, you get the extra SS's that you wouldn't have gotten by wasting that energy, you get 2 eviscerates of damage coming out of killing spree, 20 cd off Killing Spree, and the only thing you lost was 3 seconds cooldown on Killing Spree and some marginal amount of energy. I say marginal because it would take several gcds to get to 5 anticipation and by then you're probably either out of energy or AR is over.
    Last edited by Imperviable; 2014-05-26 at 11:22 AM.

  19. #39
    Blademaster Bojos's Avatar
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    Yeh like imperviable said, pooling cps before casting KS is simply the lesser evil in those situations. Which pooling option of these (7/8), (8/9), (9/10) is theoretically best I don't know but the reason I say 8-9 is that it works out practically well, if I end at 8 I stop there and if I manage to get to 9 hey rng, but the % of getting 2 cps at both the 7 cp mark and then at the 9 cp mark after adrenaline rush ends is not that big.
    Last edited by Bojos; 2014-05-26 at 02:47 PM.

  20. #40
    This thread has been very interesting! I've been living under the illusion that I should never use KS inside of AR+SB, but obviously that was wrong.

    I have a 4/4 HC WF cd reduction trinket, and testing the "new" cooldown handling yesterday i noticed that KS and AR+SB came off cd at the exact same second a handful of times.

    I assume in that scenario going KS -> AR+SB -> KS (like on pull) will be better than just AR+SB+KS straight away. In my head KS -> AR+SB -> KS means that you will get the second KS off quicker than if you use AR+SB+KS.

    I would however love to get some other minds on the matter!
    Last edited by Charissa; 2014-05-26 at 03:50 PM. Reason: typo

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