It's Only Beta...

[Sensa]

Over the years I can't tell you how many times I've seen the "It's only Beta" phrase used as a response to dismiss a variety of complaints about features / gameplay etc in the latest beta builds.

However, as someone who has never actually gotten into a Beta though I have played in some PTR's, my sense from following developments on these forums over the years is that Beta is a more a mere tuning pass / bug fix process and that for the most part (95% plus) of what you get in the first beta build is what you get in the final beta build. And often times even with that limited goal the game goes live with with obvious tuning issues (both class balance and particular fights) despite clear feedback that there are issues.

Most of the "significant" things that get changed or dropped appear to be done before the end of the Alpha (Path of Titans, opening zone quests in WoD) and are "locked in" well before players get to even test it and provide feedback. Jade Forest revamping was an exception to this rule but that was also a much different beta due to the need to let the 1 million annual passers into that Beta.

I guess my question, and point is, for those who do a lot of beta testing is: Beyond the tuning of fights and occasional rejigging of certain talents does the final product, in your opinion, change very much from the first beta build released?

[Herecius]

For want of an immediate example, beta death knights did not remotely resemble the final product.

Betas often have placeholder models worn by NPCs, they also typically have incomplete skyboxes (though WoD's skyboxes seem to have been given a priority, unusually, outside of the one zone still sporting the default fel-fire sky). In many cases, areas are missing numerous doodads meant to spruce up the zone. As you pointed out pretty directly, Jade Forest was another solid example. Howling Fjord and Dragonblight also went through a great deal of changes from beta to release, if I remember correctly.

That said, one must be careful how they use the phrase 'It's only beta,' because while some things are very obviously, or at least easy to suppose that they are incomplete features, many others are pushed into beta purposefully to expose and test a feature.

Blizzard's betas have typically been excursions in bug fixing, however, with number tuning coming in at the very end of a beta rather than happening iteratively over its duration. Blizzard's betas are often feature-incomplete, and remain so right up until release. Blizzard's PTR works a bit differently, though, with fixes and tuning being pushed pretty frequently. Many other developers use betas as demos, doing almost no tuning whatsoever during them (I'm looking at you, EA, you who sell people 'beta access' when you're really just selling a fucking demo), and still others (largely indie devs) actually use their betas to do constant features passes over a long period of time, such as Starbound.

[Sul]

No . Lots of things are continually being adjusted with each Beta build , for example in the MoP beta damage done by one of the Hunters shots ( cant remember which one) changed about 30 times over the course of the Beta.

there is a monumental amount of change happens over a Beta . Whole zones have been chucked out and redone ( Jade Forest for one) because they weren't happy with them. Talents have changed and much more .

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Betas are immensely important as they help identify issues with certain mechanics of a new feature or change and the devs then can fix it.

As Herecius, DKs for example, did not play anything like today'
s DK during the WotLK beta. Changes are not immediete, they must be tuned over time.

[xenogear3]

Beta or not, Blizzard wants to kill LFR, professions and flying.

It is on "hardcore" mode now.

[Herecius]

Beta or not, Blizzard wants to kill LFR, professions and flying.

It is on "hardcore" mode now.

There's plenty of other threads to whine about this, away with ye.

[chazus]

Herecius pretty much hit it on the nose. "Beta" For every game is going to be different. Blizzard's "Betas" are usually a largely complete game that just needs stuff added, or tuned, or tweaked. Other game's Beta is barely playable at times, or has game crashing bugs.

The larger the game, the more input they need over time, thats why MMOs, which largely have a massive, consistent user base, have long, gradually updating betas. They expect 'normal' players to play it and have an opinion.. rather than actual testers. It's sort of created an idea that "Beta = Free Play" and many people expect that. A mostly functional game that's free, to muck around ahead of time... Rather than experienced QA/Testers to find problems and mechanical issues.

[Asiel]

While I generally agree with your point that many things that make it into beta will eventually make it onto live servers, there are things that are iterated on. Mostly mechanics of how things work and bug fixes. For instance, Angelic Feathers (priest talent) used to work if an enemy player touched them instead of you. So, if for some reason you fancied pissing off the guy chasing you, you could lay a feather right in front of him to force him into activating it, causing -your enemy- to inadvertently give you a gap opener.

[Stormwolf64]

People can easily become fanboys (I really hate this word, but i don't know a better fit here) when they look forward to something, and fanatically so at times. They just cannot stand having someone point out faults in a game, because they want to live under the illusion that the game is perfect, and will use every cheap shot to defend the game, and sadly, a game can suffer from such people while in development. People giving honest critique is called trolls, whiners and everything else you can think of and the thread gets buried.

[Sensa]

thanks for the mostly thoughtful responses.

[Florena]

The way I see it is it's perfectly fine to voice concerns about what's in beta and provide constrictive criticism.

What isn't needed though is the following:

-Proclamations that the sky is falling and over dramatizing issues.
-Complaints about numbers before they begin doing numbers passes.
-Complaints about concepts before people are able to actually test said concepts.

It's fine to raise concerns and discuss things, but sometimes people get too heated up over it or discuss things that ARE going to change like numbers as if their class is doomed to be worthless.

[pfbe]

I guess my question, and point is, for those who do a lot of beta testing is: Beyond the tuning of fights and occasional rejigging of certain talents does the final product, in your opinion, change very much from the first beta build released?

Having done extensive testing (nolifing 14+ hours a day, for months) on MoP beta, I can tell you numbers change quite a lot, but it's unusual for something else to change substantially. Jade forest sticks out like a sore thumb among all the changes during beta, because of how unusual it was.
There were occasional talent changes, as in removing a talent or ability and adding a totally different one, or reshuffling abilities through the levels or talents through the trees. Glyphs changed quite a bit, masteries were also iterated a bit, and there were occasional changes in vendor lists, in item stats, in rep gains.

But a lot of that stuff is... how to say it, it's so formulaic, it's so core to the game, that they could do it with their eyes closed.

The end result, however, the numbers that came out of your toon, be it healing or damage, those changed a lot and, in doing so, changed rotations and the metagame around talents/stats. I vividly remember there being a time where combustion was so out of whack that the direct damage portion - you know, the damage that goes with the stun when you press the button - was smashing other players (fully pvp geared) for over 200k damage. I remember because I beat cobrak on a 2v2 arena because of it, lol. And then the next week, it was hitting around 30k.

[Kuntantee]

Beta Testing guys, testing...not Beta Development. If you are in beta testing phase, that means your won't have much to change in terms of assets.

[megasus]

Rob Pardo, vice president of game design, addressed Blizzard's intentions behind a beta/alpha phase in a recent article.

He stated that Blizzard's beta tests are not about finding bugs. They have an internal QA team that finds nearly every bug.
It's much more about finding balancing issues as there is a much bigger variety of players.

[Wrathonia]

Alpha and Beta are specifically made for feedback. If I don't like something, why would I *not* give feedback? Because it might not be finished or changed? Doesn't matter. They want feedback and I will do so, giving my opinion.

[shoc]

The entirety of Jade Forest was scrapped and reworked just weeks before launch. If there's one game you can say 'It's Beta, not final', it's WoW. ESO for example the Beta was a glorified demo, most bugs and complaints went completely unfixed and ignored, straight into launch.

Hell, why do you think they do Artcrafts in the first place? They expect the forums to go up in a tizzy over certain things, and that's what they analyze and work from there.

[Revi]

Dismissing criticism because it's only alpha/beta defeats the whole point of it. You're supposed to find faults, imbalanced and design decisions that you don't like and pass those opinions/findings on to Blizzard.

Blizzard has changed tons of things after they released alpha notes due to the feedback they got. If people didn't complain because "alpha is alpha" then those changes wouldn't have occurred.

[Kuntantee]

See, to those who view the beta as a "I get to play the game early" situation... yes, the beta is a "mere tuning pass / bug fix process". For those who actually know what to expect in a beta... The results are vastly different.

As someone who has participated in multiple alphas, betas and as someone who works in the games industry (specifically in QA) I can tell you that changes happen in all phases of development.

Think of it this way...
Alpha is where core gameplay concepts are finalized.
Beta is where feedback changes happen. It's where art is finalized and polish is completed.

More often than not... Beta is where the most drastic changes happen.

Beta Testing is a software engineering term. Drastic change, from software engineering pov is not what you are thinking. If there is a drastic change in beta testing phase, that means development process is failed. I've been in various beta phases, never seen a "drastic" change. Even in dota 2's so called "beta testing" which is not a beta phase but more like development phase, there was no drastic change at all other than more content. I've also been in all Cata and WoD beta, no drastic change again. Changing talents and stuff like that are not drastic changes at all.

[Ehrenpanzer]

Rob Pardo, vice president of game design, addressed Blizzard's intentions behind a beta/alpha phase in a recent article.

He stated that Blizzard's beta tests are not about finding bugs. They have an internal QA team that finds nearly every bug.
It's much more about finding balancing issues as there is a much bigger variety of players.

That is quite possibly the single biggest line of bullshit I've ever heard....lol

[Krazzorx]

Dismissing criticism because it's only alpha/beta defeats the whole point of it. You're supposed to find faults, imbalanced and design decisions that you don't like and pass those opinions/findings on to Blizzard.

Blizzard has changed tons of things after they released alpha notes due to the feedback they got. If people didn't complain because "alpha is alpha" then those changes wouldn't have occurred.

That doesn't really apply though to things like Draenor having the sky be BC Shadowmoon Fel fire sky. Ofc that's only due to it being in alpha/beta. No real need to comment there.

Same thing with the game constantly crashing and other similar beta events.

Another example would be placeholders. No real need to comment on those ofc until a real version is in place.