Harder work!=Higher pay?

[Cosmic Janitor]

You will be paid according to these factor:

Higher demand for your work = more money.
Higher qualification needed = more money.
Higher quantifyable work done = more money.
Higher degree of accountability = more money.
Higher degree of personal risk = more money.
Higher amount of incovenience = more money.
Higher skill at negotiating your payment = alot more money.

There is probably a couple more.

[Sunseeker]

Great idea in theory but almost impossible to regulate, how do you decide who is the hardest worker?

And disabled folks can work really damn hard. They just do it where their disability doesn't cause a problem.

IE: a person in a wheelchair is not going to be substantially more limited working as a receptionist than a person with working legs. There's no reason for them to be paid less simply because they can't run around the office, which a good receptionist shouldn't be doing anyway.

Sure, someone in a wheelchair might not be the best guy to do roofing, but shit, a lot of people with no disabilities aren't cut out for roofing.

[Tirivaria]

The original question was hard work... I would not call number crunching/programming/people management "hard work".

That's the essential problem with the OP as posed. "Hard work" means different things in different situations and it isn't necessarily what should be rewarded. Output and innovation are what are important to businesses. It may involve hard work from the worker but how "hard" will vary by person and can't be measured objectively.

[Lyese]

The original question was hard work... I would not call number crunching/programming/people management "hard work".

All that number crunching, programming, and people management IS hard work. It's the oil that helps the gears grind. If your company uses outdated computers, can't manage/track inventory, sales, projections, and trends, and has high turn-over due to low morale, then I don't see it lasting very long at all.

[anyaka21]

Real world = athletes that make $30,000,000 per year and they don't work harder than a firefighter or a policman. Or that they put more time than teachers that teach our children?

Sorry, real world isn't fair. Even in normal jobs it's filled with suck ups that get the promotions even though the people doing the real work don't get recognized.

[Mikael123]

In general, workers are not paid for how hard they work, but for how much value they create for the company.

[Lyese]

I'm a software engineer, programming is not hard work. If anything, its fun. You get to figure out logic problems, or how to do stuff with a given language... that is pretty much the same language as the others, with different syntax.

Well, I get the whole thing you're trying to push with "hard" and "easy" work, but try slapping someone off the streets into a programmer's desk. It's a skill, like any other, and in this market, that skill is very valuable.

[YuneKirby]

Working "harder" isn't necessarily working better. I know people at my workplace who work way more hours than me, but get way less done. Whether it's more effort or more time, IMO you're better off working smarter.

[Tirivaria]

Well, I supposed that depends, I wouldn't call what I do "hard work"...(I'm a software engineer).

I would, however, call "Firefighter" a "hard work" job.

Who do you suppose gets paid more?

That goes to how you're defining "hard." Ranching and fire fighting are physically demanding and possibly physically unpleasant.

Your programming job is about problem solving. It can be mentally challenging and impossible to someone without the proper education. If you do not find it difficult, then good for you. That's why I say it ends up being a subjective measure. What is not "hard" to you may be considered "hard" for someone else. The fewer people out there that could do your job, the higher the starting pay for your position will be.

That's why I keep going back to output. If you're working for me, I don't necessarily care how many hours you're spending coding whatever I need. I care about how well your product meets my needs within my deadline.

[OzoAndIndi]

So how do you feel? Everone should be given the same rights to a work, but if one works harder it's just natural that he/she gets payed more?
Weirdest discussion for me I've had in a long time, happy to hear your thoughts as I'm struggling to see the issue...

Well... my honest opinion is that people have a skewed view of what is and isn't "hard work" that doesn't completely mesh with the modern world, as well as a very messed up view of what jobs are worth certain levels of pay. For christ sake, we allow people who sit in a cushy private office to sign their own paychecks and give their friends big million dollar bonuses they don't even deserve... There is no way our view isn't skewed nowadays. Our idea of what jobs are worthy of what pay is ridiculous.

Working hard does not automatically equal a physically laborious job, as some seem to assume. We needs all kinds of people to fill many very different kinds of jobs, and some of those jobs are less physical but many of those people may too be working their ass off. Does someone who works hard at, say, a construction site deserve good pay? Sure. Does someone who works in a lab long hours day in and day out to try to figure out a cure for a bad disease also deserve it? Of course.

No, people should probably not be in a job they can't reasonably preform well on. Someone who has a physical disability is probably not going to do any better at a construction site than someone who's bad at math would do in a lab. But it doesn't mean they don't both work their asses off at the jobs they DO have. If the same job, pay raises should work the way they are deserved.

[GennGreymane]

Pay is decided by value produced, not work.

[Lyese]

Work out in the plants is lucrative if you're a journeyman+. Good places can get you $20-25 an hour, and even apprentices/peons can get $15-18.

[GennGreymane]

Example of why value and skill is paid and not difficulty of work.

A person at your company negotiates a massive deal that will add a huge amount to your profits in the future. They managed this by being a good people person, and negotiating a fair deal with the client at a golf course, or at a meal. This deal could have been days, weeks, or months in the making. This person now is considered indispensable because they produced great value with modest skills. An example, being a charming individual who can sell a deal.

A person at your company cleans the building. They do a great job, the place is always spotless. Maybe a client or two notices this. Maybe the client never takes a step in your building. This person works hard every day. they are paid a modest salary for their position that does not require much skill to complete. They may be good at it, but they could hire someone else and the job would be done.

[Spraxle]

Skimming I saw someone said, "working hard is a good way to keep your job." That's true and false. If you work really hard a job you are more likely to get fed up with it and/or taken advantage of at said job. Now when this happens enough and you say something like, 'I deserve more pay' they will tell you to get fucked. In the nicest way possible of course. Lets use myself as an example of this. Where I work I work my ass off and reap almost zero benefit as the company doesn't offer pay raises of any kind, no benefits, no nothing. But, now I am expected to work my ass off all the time. Sadly that is just my work ethic. But my employer can abuse that knowledge since they know I will do the work. And I have been looking for a new job that fits my schooling schedule to no avail. Which makes it even more of a bitch because I have no where else to go. They won't fire me so I have job security but the job itself isn't security enough to live. It's a shit situation and a good example of how a good work ethic usually gets you fucked in the end.

[apepi]

No, from the statistics I have seen raises are very small, most of the gains in pay are from switching jobs.

[twiddler]

I don't agree that hard work should equate to more pay. I am more aligned with the idea that the more efficient and productive worker should receive better pay.

[Tharkkun]

"I'm not sexist, but..."

You're the one who brought up the pay gap, not us. To say that there is not an element of sexism in the corporate sphere is utterly ignorant.

You were fishing for a reason to bring up sexism.

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And disabled folks can work really damn hard. They just do it where their disability doesn't cause a problem.

IE: a person in a wheelchair is not going to be substantially more limited working as a receptionist than a person with working legs. There's no reason for them to be paid less simply because they can't run around the office, which a good receptionist shouldn't be doing anyway.

Sure, someone in a wheelchair might not be the best guy to do roofing, but shit, a lot of people with no disabilities aren't cut out for roofing.

I work with a guy who has cerebral palsy. He drives now as well but has poor control of his hands and uses a wheelchair. Kinda scary but anyways.
He's been software developer for 18 years now. He's much slower at typing but he is far more intelligent than me. I definitely accomplish more each day than he does by the fact that I can communicate, move, type faster but his development mistakes could cost the company millions so he's deserving of a slightly higher pay grade.

[Kraenen]

Pay is decided by value produced, not work.

Not 1:1 though, your value produced may be greater than what you're paid but your manager or whoever pays you might not notice every little detail and have perfect judgement on the value you produce.

[Annoying]

I don't agree that hard work should equate to more pay. I am more aligned with the idea that the more efficient and productive worker should receive better pay.

In my field, if you're a hard worker, you might lack one of the basic fundamentals of software engineering.

The fundamentals are: Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.
Don't laugh, I'm not even joking.

Laziness
The quality that makes you go to great effort to reduce overall energy expenditure. It makes you write labor-saving programs that other people will find useful, and document what you wrote so you don't have to answer so many questions about it. Hence, the first great virtue of a programmer.

Impatience
The anger you feel when the computer is being lazy. This makes you write programs that don't just react to your needs, but actually anticipate them. Or at least pretend to. Hence, the second great virtue of a programmer.

Hubris
Excessive pride, the sort of thing Zeus zaps you for. Also the quality that makes you write (and maintain) programs that other people won't want to say bad things about. Hence, the third great virtue of a programmer.

I'm the complete champion of laziness and impatience. Gotta work on my hubris a bit, though.

Back on topic: Let's be realistic, hard work almost never means higher pay. It means more work for the same money. Almost no companies give substantial raises or promotions anymore, so it's more about learning and gaining experience, so you can leave and go get a higher paying job.

[kendro1200]

In my field, if you're a hard worker, you might lack one of the basic fundamentals of software engineering.

The fundamentals are: Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.
Don't laugh, I'm not even joking.



I'm the complete champion of laziness and impatience. Gotta work on my hubris a bit, though.

Back on topic: Let's be realistic, hard work almost never means higher pay. It means more work for the same money. Almost no companies give substantial raises or promotions anymore, so it's more about learning and gaining experience, so you can leave and go get a higher paying job.

Substantial raises and promotions do exist, but only for those that have made themselves an invaluable commodity that has flight risk. Otherwise, your boss wants you to eventually quit, if you don't spend too long in one place, then you don't accumulate too much paid vacation time, which is also why they'll hire someone new rather than promote someone else. Gotta maximize that budget!