Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill 1.1

[GennGreymane]

How can russia hope to modernize their industry without technology exchange?

you dont, thats how!

[Shalcker]

you dont, thats how!

It's called "import substitution" :P

In most cases it's easier to just get things from global markets; but if you get cut off from them there is no other option. West thinks they are indispensable; we think they are just convenient... until they aren't.

- - - Updated - - -

Trade barriers can be implemented from both sides. Protecting your indigenous industries with trade barriers leads to inefficiency. That trade barrier is just your citizens paying more money to support that company. It's a hidden tax on your people.

Anything can be thought about as "hidden tax", wages included, but it's not useful if we're talking about how to make industry competitive.

Suppose all-native company gets temporary tax break to be competitive - is that taxes "citizens" will not get, or is it taxes "citizens" will not have to pay? Which way it goes from your point of view?

Those tariffs are paid into government coffers after all, if you remove them you're depriving your state from that revenue stream. It's balancing act between supporting local industries and their revenue streams (and their tax payments) and keeping outside markets open for their products so that they can grow while not relying just on local market.

Ideal situation here is when your market is perfectly protected from competition while outside market has no protections from your goods; obviously that rarely happens in practice.

Those countries don't have a good balance between labor/owners. It's why their internal consumption is so low. It makes them more vulnerable to sanctions. Even without a good balance between labor/owners, those countries are also now struggling with an increasing price on labor. Their citizens also live like shit compared to countries with lower corruption. Which is the whole point.

What do sanctions have to do with anything here? We're talking about quite diverse bunch of countries :/
Also, "China vulnerable to sanctions"? Come on, that's like saying "US is vulnerable to sanctions" - hey, the whole world could decide tomorrow they are not going to respect US intellectual property and they will be left with nothing - that's about as likely as sanctioning China.

The company eventually fails because it can't compete. That's the mechanism. It punishes the company, not the CEO, for inefficiency with failure.

Except it's CEO decisions that should drive company to success or failure.

It rewards its competitors for their efficiency with the failed business's market share.

Or for their cartel/price fixing agreements that driven competition out...

There is no mechanism for guaranteeing innovation except the fear that your competitor will become better and push you out of the market. There isn't really the same push when you know your government will just remove your competition.

Except sometimes you can push out your competitor in completely different ways not involving innovation...

I'm talking about within your country. Having multiple companies competing. Not one government monolith rife with corruption.

How well do you think it works with "natural monopolies"? It's not "one size fits all" solution at all.

Multiple companies can be just as corrupt as single one (or even more!), and much harder to control.

Not when the governmental apparatus isn't concerned with efficiency but with other concerns. Like making money for politicians and getting re-elected.

Not so in Russia. Putin will get elected as long as he produces results; so his incentive (and one he passes to his government) is to produce results so that he gets re-elected :P

You can't say "managed exactly the same way as western private companies" and then have them being run a different way, with political appointees and no real fear of failure.

Does "too big to fail" strikes a bell in your memory? Is that a Russian saying? Also "revolving door" :P

And those companies fail, get increased regulations put on their industry, and can even have their CEOs go to jail on corruption charges (although usually given deals to prosecute the politicians).

Well, as you've seen people post here directors from RosNano can get corruption charges just as easily!

[Deleted]

It's called "import substitution" :P

In most cases it's easier to just get things from global markets; but if you get cut off from them there is no other option. West thinks they are indispensable; we think they are just convenient... until they aren't.

Industry in dire need of modernisation?
Cuts itself off global markets -> claims it's deliberate strategy and positive.

Where does this magical modernisation come from?

[Kellhound]

you dont, thats how!

You do it by stealing it with industrial espionage. Its how the USSR got a lot of its tech.

[Shalcker]

Industry in dire need of modernisation?
Cuts itself off global markets -> claims it's deliberate strategy and positive.

We're not cut from global market. You're the ones cutting yourself willingly from OUR market.

Creating perfect protection our market needs at your own expense.

Where does this magical modernisation come from?

Our own resources, Asian investments, and stuff we got before your cut yourselves from our markets too.

Do you think you produce "magic Western modernization dust" that is the only source of modernization potential? :P

[Deleted]

We're not cut from global market. You're the ones cutting yourself willingly from OUR market.

You really want a domestic garage sale and call it the market?

Our own resources, Asian investments, and stuff we got before your cut yourselves from our markets too.

Sure asian investors love investment insecurity, corruption and boasting their hard geopolitical rival.

Do you think you produce "magic Western modernization dust" that is the only source of modernization potential? :P

I know it. Will you cheer when putin orders a big leap forward too? :>
You would be the first to defend it and last to give it up.

[Shalcker]

You really want a domestic garage sale and call it the market?

We're right behind (and in some areas ahead of) Germany as far as our "market size" is concerned. If that is not big enough then plans to increase our trade with China by few more hundred billions $ are also under way :P

Sure asian investors love investment insecurity, corruption and boasting their hard geopolitical rival.

They are quite accustomed to it from their own countries, and a lot less picky then their Western counterparts :P

[Girrag]

Why not modernize russian economy instead of starting expedition forces into neighbouring countrys and give billions to cold conflict zones?

I remember in 2009 Russia tried to buy Opel. To modernize own economy and to start make better cars. In the last moment deal was blocked. In 2010 Medvedev tried to persuade USA to remove some technology export limits during his visit. Jackson-Vanik amendment was removed only in 2012. You can't modernize your economy if nobody is selling modern equipment.

[Deleted]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ng-in-ukraine/

it look like China have no problem to trade with Ukraine.

[Haven]

Did anyone mention French deputies' visit to supposedly occupied Crimea? Although Western media reaction is predictable, either zero coverage, or a wave of accusations. Ukraine wants to jail those deputees, btw.

Also, Gerard Depardieu is apparently a threat to Ukraine. And therefore to freedom, democracy, and all of civilization.

[Crispin]

Did anyone mention French deputies' visit to supposedly occupied Crimea? Although Western media reaction is predictable, either zero coverage, or a wave of accusations. Ukraine wants to jail those deputees, btw.

Also, Gerard Depardieu is apparently a threat to Ukraine. And therefore to freedom, democracy, and all of civilization.

It does seem as if your media did a major spin on 10 random MP's visiting Crimea, it's mainly a display of your inability to understand European politics, perhaps this might help you understand abit.

Divisions or Democracy?
“On the one hand, such visits are damaging the attempts of the EU to clearly communicate to Russia that it doesn’t accept the annexation of Crimea and the Russian aggression in eastern Ukraine,” said Ulrich Speck, a visiting scholar at Carnegie Europe, a think tank in Brussels.

“But on the other hand, one should not overreact to visits of MPs of several EU countries in Crimea. They do not represent the mainstream of opinion in the EU. It is a small number, and most of them belong to the political fringe,” he said in written comments.

“Furthermore, those travels demonstrate that governments in the EU don’t control the political system, unlike in Russia. A wide spectrum of opinion on Russia exists in the EU and MPs are free to express them — although they may have violated international law, as the French Foreign Ministry argues,” he said.

EU Visits to Crimea Reflect Democracy, Not Divisions Over Russia, Say Analysts, the guy is spot on, MP's can visit North Korea and say it's a well thought out system if they want to.


But thanks for displaying your complete surrender to your state controlled propaganda machine.

[Haven]

And here your confirmation bias is at its best - first of all, there is no such thing as ''Western media''. The fact you catagorize it as such shows you little understand about Europe and US and how things are handled here.
There are plenty of branches and outlets,each quite often hostile to one another and each representing its own wing.
Whatever editor and columnist wants to write, gets published. For example, Daily Mail which is below average, labels Russian affairs in Ukraine as invasion - yet it also hosts column by Peter Hitchens, who`s quite a Putinista.

Except that some opinions are forbidden, and saying things against the line of the party costs you career. Udo Ulfkotte and others wrote about it. You see, there is always state ideology, an officially approved point of view. If you think there isn't one in your country, you're delusional. It is there in every country, every social group in the world. You should just ask yourself who is the author of your point of view, and how you would manipulate the opinion of a group if it was your job (and you had nigh unlimited resources). Hint: all Germans who followed the line of NSDAP also thought they were in the right, and that they were the good guys, because their media told them so. And that jews were being deported and nobody killed anyone.

I understand why you think this way - because thats how its handled in your country. But that doesnt mean the practice is the same everywhere.
No one, unlike RT and other trash like that, gets orders what to write or has a narrative to follow.

And what is this faith based upon, other than presumption that perfect democracy and corporate honesty is reality and you live in it? You think you're the better side? The exclusive? That bad things don't apply to you, and you're the free one, and your kin can tell no lies? Naive and innocent, like a child.

First of all, Ukraine doesnt embody freedom,democracy and ''all of civilization'', whatever the fuck that means. It aspires to achieve those things. Quite a difference, eh?

It aspires in a very strange way, with civil war, "witch hunting", murders of journalists and armed nationalist brigades that answer to no one but themselves. But it is all Western values, because West supports it and continues paying for it.

[Deleted]

Except that some opinions are forbidden, and saying things against the line of the party costs you career. Udo Ulfkotte and others wrote about it. You see, there is always state ideology, an officially approved point of view. If you think there isn't one in your country, you're delusional. It is there in every country, every social group in the world. You should just ask yourself who is the author of your point of view, and how you would manipulate the opinion of a group if it was your job (and you had nigh unlimited resources). Hint: all Germans who followed the line of NSDAP also thought they were in the right, and that they were the good guys, because their media told them so. And that jews were being deported and nobody killed anyone.

Or let's go with the simpler explanation that is that you just don't understand how European politics work. Yes, there are ideologies that most parties follow (albeit fairly loosely). But the only parties that exclude members because they "go against the party line" are mostly far-right parties. And even then that's entirely up to them if they want to exclude members or not.

[Haven]

Or let's go with the simpler explanation that is that you just don't understand how European politics work. Yes, there are ideologies that most parties follow (albeit fairly loosely). But the only parties that exclude members because they "go against the party line" are mostly far-right parties. And even then that's entirely up to them if they want to exclude members or not.

There is Brussels' and Washington's line, and it decides everything. No significant power, be it a political party, person or outlet, is allowed to defy this line. Strauss-Kahn was removed from politics with an obviously forged scandal. Assange is hiding from police that charges him of rape, and no one in the entire world believes this charge is not just an excuse. Snowden hides in Russia for telling the truth. German bloggers were recently charged with state treason for the same thing. And you're saying that pluralism exists in Europe and Western world?

[Kellhound]

There is Brussels' and Washington's line, and it decides everything. No significant power, be it a political party, person or outlet, is allowed to defy this line. Strauss-Kahn was removed from politics with an obviously forged scandal. Assange is hiding from police that charges him of rape, and no one in the entire world believes this charge is not just an excuse. Snowden hides in Russia for telling the truth. German bloggers were recently charged with state treason for the same thing. And you're saying that pluralism exists in Europe and Western world?

Snowden is a fugitive in Russia for exposing state secrets, also known as treason. There is no doubt he deserves nothing less than high speed lead poisoning.

[Ripster42]

There is Brussels' and Washington's line, and it decides everything. No significant power, be it a political party, person or outlet, is allowed to defy this line. Strauss-Kahn was removed from politics with an obviously forged scandal. Assange is hiding from police that charges him of rape, and no one in the entire world believes this charge is not just an excuse. Snowden hides in Russia for telling the truth. German bloggers were recently charged with state treason for the same thing. And you're saying that pluralism exists in Europe and Western world?

You do realize that people in Washington don't even agree on this "line" you're talking about right? And that we're free to criticize our government right? And you do realize that treason includes giving aid to your state's enemies which includes giving away state secrets right?

[Shalcker]

Interesting article...

Apparently US has basically no EW attack systems worth mentioning that could be deployed unlike Russia? And new systems that are supposed to come will not be ready until 2023? :/

http://www.defensenews.com/story/def...fare/30913397/

WASHINGTON — The US military has for weeks been training Ukrainian forces in US tactics, but the commander of US Army Europe says Ukrainian forces, who are fighting Russian-backed separatists, have much to teach their US trainers.

Ukrainian forces have grappled with formidable Russian electronic warfare capabilities that analysts say would prove withering even to the US ground forces. The US Army has also jammed insurgent communications from the air and ground on a limited basis, and it is developing a powerful arsenal of jamming systems, but these are not expected until 2023.

"Our soldiers are doing the training with the Ukrainians and we've learned a lot from the Ukrainians," said Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges. "A third of the [Ukrainian] soldiers have served in the ... combat zone, and no Americans have been under Russian artillery or rocket fire, or significant Russian electronic warfare, jamming or collecting — and these Ukrainians have. It's interesting to hear what they have learned."

Hodges acknowledged that US troops are learning from Ukrainians about Russia's jamming capability, its ranges, types and the ways it has been employed. He has previously described the quality and sophistication of Russian electronic warfare as "eye-watering."

Russia maintains an ability to destroy command-and-control networks by jamming radio communications, radars and GPS signals, according to Laurie Buckhout, former chief of the US Army's electronic warfare division, now CEO of the Corvus Group. In contrast with the US, Russia has large units dedicated to electronic warfare, known as EW, which it dedicates to ground electronic attack, jamming communications, radar and command-and-control nets.

DEFENSE NEWS

Ukraine Military Seeks to Modernize Past Soviet Era

Though Ukrainian troops lack the materiel to protect themselves from this form of attack, the Ukrainian military's institutional knowledge as a former Soviet republic will help it understand how Russia fights, and its troops will have trained to operate while being jammed, Buckhout said. That's something US ground forces can learn.

"Our biggest problem is we have not fought in a comms-degraded environment for decades, so we don't know how to do it," Buckhout said. "We lack not only tactics, techniques and procedures but the training to fight in a comms-degraded environment."

It's not hard to see why EW is an attractive option for Russia while the eyes of the world are on it. Not only is it highly effective, but as a non-kinetic form of attack, it is harder to trace and less likely to be viewed as overt aggression, and as such, less likely to incite the ire of the international community, Buckhout said.

In a fight, Russia's forces can hinder a target's ability to respond to, say, an artillery attack, allowing them to fire on an enemy with impunity. Ukrainian forces would be unable to coordinate a defense against incoming rockets and missiles, or release counter battery fire.

"If your radars don't see incoming fire, you can't coordinate counterfire," Buckhout said.

The US, Buckhout said, lacks a significant electronic attack capability.

"We have great signals intelligence, and we can listen all day long, but we can't shut them down one-tenth to the degree they can us," she said. "We are very unprotected from their attacks on our network."

Multifunctional EW

Col. Jeffrey Church, the Army's electronic warfare division chief, acknowledged that since the Cold War, adversaries have continued to modernize their EW capabilities, while the Army began reinvesting its capabilities for Iraq and Afghanistan. Church called the fielding of Army electronic warfare equipment the "No. 1 priority" of his job.

"The Army must have electronic warfare capabilities that could be used to dominate key terrain on the electromagnetic spectrum against any adversary," Church said.

A developing Army program, Multifunctional Electronic Warfare (MFEW), is intended to provide an offensive electronic attack capability, able to jam cell phone, satellite and GPS signals, said Lt. Col. Gregory Griffin, chief of the Electronic Warfare Division's programs and requirements branch. However, the focus had been until recent years on "defensive electronic attack," namely counter-radio-controlled-IED devices that create bubbles of protective jamming around vehicles and people, and signals collection for intelligence purposes.

The Army has demonstrated some ability to counter enemy communications, not under formal acquisitions programs but as quick-reaction capabilities. In Afghanistan, the Army used a handful of C-12 aircraft equipped with Caesar jamming pods to jam insurgent push-to-talk radios, and two fixed-site systems — Ground Auto Targeting Observation/Reactive (GATOR) jammer and Duke V2 EA — to jam radios and repeater towers.

On an ad hoc basis, troops in Afghanistan used GATOR — conceived to protect forward operating bases — to suppress repeater towers while on patrol or training Afghan forces, providing themselves the freedom to maneuver while denying communications to potential enemies, Griffin said.

"It was unlimited capability, limited by the number of systems," Griffin said. "Honestly, we just did not have enough to support the demand that was in the Army."

The Army's electronic warfare cadre, which totals 813 officers, warrant officers and noncommissioned officers, has wielded more theory than hardware, except when deployed. In garrison, it was common for these troops to be assigned other jobs, leading to the joke that EW stands for "extra worker" — though this is changing as the Army ramps up its electronic warfare materiel strategy, Griffin said.

MFEW, due to reach initial operating capability in 2023 and full operating capability in 2027, is intended to offer a suite of powerful, sophisticated sensors and jammers for in the air, on ground vehicles and in fixed locations. The Army is due to consider a capability design document for the "air large" capability, akin to Caesar, potentially for a C-12 or a MQ-8 Fire Scout drone. Last year it tested the Networked Electronic Warfare Remotely Operated (NERO), a jamming pod attached to the Gray Eagle drone.

The Defense Department in March set up a panel to address its electronic warfare shortfalls, which, Griffin said, has generated discussion about accelerating the timeline for MFEW.

'Future of War Is in the Ukraine'

Forces with US Army Europe have for the last 10 weeks been training three battalions of Ukraine Ministry of the Interior troops, known as Ukraine's national guard. The second cycle of that training was paused so that troops could participate in a combined multinational exercise, underway through early August, and it will resume and conclude with the third battalion in August.

The Ukrainian military — which is in the midst of a reform and modernization effort even as it wars with Russia — has shown interest in creating a noncommissioned officer corps modeled after that of the US, Hodges said. Ukrainian military officials charged with reform efforts visited Washington in recent weeks and, in a press conference, acknowledged the challenges of corruption and shoddy soldier equipment, which they sought to correct.

But Konstiantyn Liesnik, an adviser to the Defense Ministry's reform office and head of its working group for logistics and procurement, noted the US military's experience in recent years has concerned insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan, not a powerful, organized and well-equipped adversary like Russia.

"The future of war is in the Ukraine, and I think in this case our experience is very important to US personnel how war should be in this century and next century," Liesnik said.

Beyond electronic warfare, Russian anti-aircraft rockets have prevented Ukrainian forces from using their airplanes, and it has had to consider personal armor that can protect against artillery.

Ukrainian forces interacting with US soldiers have spoken frankly about their difficulties, something Hodges said he saw firsthand when the chief of the Ukrainian Army, at an event attended by senior leaders from other countries, discussed with a group of officers his force's battlefield experiences and shortcomings.

"I have been very impressed with the earnestness of the Ukrainian military to fix their shortcomings and improve their capabilities," Hodges said. "It was one of the most professional things I have ever seen of any army, and they were very candid: We were not prepared to do this, and here's how we adapted."

Ukrainian troops have not only had to adapt to Russian electronic warfare, but its artillery and unmanned aerial systems. A senior Army official, Hodges said, detailed how unprepared Ukrainian troops have been for the number of casualties and their treatment.

The US provided Ukraine with lightweight counter-mortar radars in November 2014, which Hodges said its troops have "used in ways we have not used it ourselves, and made it more effective than we thought was possible." These troops, he said, would be savvy enough to operate a more advanced radar with a wider range — which the Pentagon is reportedly in talks to send.

An official at the US State Department said the administration believes there is no military resolution to this crisis, but Ukraine has the right to defend itself. To that end, it announced a $75 million Defense Department aid package in March that includes 30 armored Humvees, 200 other Humvees, radios and unarmed surveillance drones, night-vision devices and medical supplies.

The 173rd Airborne Brigade Combat Team, based in Vicenza, Italy, had been training Ukrainian troops in western Ukraine, in battlefield medicine, casualty evacuation, and tactical tasks such as anti-roadside bomb techniques and basic battlefield movement.

Saber Guardian, a command post exercise which rotates between Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria, this year was linked to Rapid Trident, an annual field training exercise held in Ukraine, according to the US Army. The combined exercise, which includes roughly 1,800 soldiers from 18 different nations, is meant to focus on defensive operations to ensure a safe and secure environment within the operating environment.

This year's scenario consists of a host nation that comes under attack. The nation is able to defend itself at great cost. A multinational force is sent to assist the host nation and the challenge is to bring together and train a multinational brigade, which would then be sent to assist the host nation in its defense.

[Haven]

Snowden is a fugitive in Russia for exposing state secrets, also known as treason. There is no doubt he deserves nothing less than high speed lead poisoning.

What exactly did he betray? The state apparatus? Or the people of America? I find it delightfully ironic that he denied government the privacy it has been denying its people for years.

You do realize that people in Washington don't even agree on this "line" you're talking about right? And that we're free to criticize our government right? And you do realize that treason includes giving aid to your state's enemies which includes giving away state secrets right?

Oh tell me more about how people in Washington have disagreements about bashing Putin 24/7. Only one person has not been talking shit for the last two years, and it's Trump, which speaks for itself.

Well yeah, you're free to criticize your government as long as your critics is completely irrelevant. You can rend air, shout your lungs out if you so desire, someone will probably even listen to you with a polite smile. But when you try to do something, you get handled like Occupy Wall Street. Fast and brutal, mass arrests.

And what if this "treason" involves actually acting in the interests of American people? He was trying to not let US become Huxley's Brave New World. You're under supervision and control. Say something wrong, NSA will know it, FBI will take you in, because Patriot Act (now Freedom Act) says you're a terrorist. KGB would've been envious of these methods. Is this your idea of democracy?

[Uzkin]

I think the Finns are, more and more, starting to see through the western bullsh*t regarding this Ukrainian crisis, and realize where the real problem lies. Just yesterday the Swedish neo-nazis organized a violent riot in the Finnish city Jyväskylä:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015...25197_uu.shtml (in finnish)
http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenyt...cle21202778.ab (på svenska)

and a couple of days ago USA demonstrated that Finland is not allowed to conduct our own independent foreign affairs by issuing (illegal) sanctions against FINNISH individuals and companies who have dared to conduct business with Russia:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/201...14822_ul.shtml (in Finnish)

We (Finland) demanded explanations from the US but their diplomat just told us that "It's nothing personal, guys". I'm so glad the US decided to import some proper FREEDOM to us as well... the freedom to do as they say.

Thus it is no wonder that several Finns have joined the ranks of the Donbass forces to fight against the western neo-imperialism. Here's an interview from one such Finnish volunteer fighter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za3jt8uN034 (in Finnish)

Some excerpts from the interview (loosely translated by me) :
"Why do you fight?"
- "I fight against the western fascism and neo-imperialism."

"Do you fight against NATO and USA in Donbass?"
- "Yes. That is exactly who I fight against."

"If you face a NATO/american soldier on the battle field what do you do?"
- "Shoot at him."

[Deleted]

There is Brussels' and Washington's line, and it decides everything. No significant power, be it a political party, person or outlet, is allowed to defy this line. Strauss-Kahn was removed from politics with an obviously forged scandal. Assange is hiding from police that charges him of rape, and no one in the entire world believes this charge is not just an excuse. Snowden hides in Russia for telling the truth. German bloggers were recently charged with state treason for the same thing. And you're saying that pluralism exists in Europe and Western world?

Yes. I also think you have no idea how the West works still. I mean.. if you think Assange and Snowden defines how Western politics work in general then obviously you'll have a skewed view.

- - - Updated - - -

I think the Finns are, more and more, starting to see through the western bullsh*t regarding this Ukrainian crisis, and realize where the real problem lies. Just yesterday the Swedish neo-nazis organized a violent riot in the Finnish city Jyväskylä:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2015...25197_uu.shtml (in finnish)
http://www.aftonbladet.se/senastenyt...cle21202778.ab (på svenska)

and a couple of days ago USA demonstrated that Finland is not allowed to conduct our own independent foreign affairs by issuing (illegal) sanctions against FINNISH individuals and companies who have dared to conduct business with Russia:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/ulkomaat/201...14822_ul.shtml (in Finnish)

We (Finland) demanded explanations from the US but their diplomat just told us that "It's nothing personal, guys". I'm so glad the US decided to import some proper FREEDOM to us as well... the freedom to do as they say.

Thus it is no wonder that several Finns have joined the ranks of the Donbass forces to fight against the western neo-imperialism. Here's an interview from one such Finnish volunteer fighter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za3jt8uN034 (in Finnish)

Some excerpts from the interview (loosely translated by me) :
"Why do you fight?"
- "I fight against the western fascism and neo-imperialism."

"Do you fight against NATO and USA in Donbass?"
- "Yes. That is exactly who I fight against."

"If you face a NATO/american soldier on the battle field what do you do?"
- "Shoot at him."

That's nice. But the Finns will stay with the West no matter what you think. Period.