Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill 1.1

[Crispin]

how can you possible take any moral stance after kosovo and other bullshit the west does around the world?

I gotta admit, I cant remember when "the west" last send in unmarked soldiers to stage a "referndum" for a part of a country to join the US or whatever.

Do the west make mistakes? no doubt about it, I could write a book about the mistakes done in the west, I don't think anyone inhere claimed that the west is perfect at all, heck parts of the west caused 2 world wars among other things.

[Ausr]

bhahahahahahahahahahaha

Hey hey now, those "concerned locals" just happened to have military grade uniforms, weaponry and armored vehicles in their backyard sheds.

[Shalcker]

It must have been MIND blowing when the curtain fell and the internet really picked up, and theese Russians learned that their govt had been lying for them and their parents for the major part of the 20th century.

No, what was mind blowing to Russians in 90's is that almost everything Soviet propaganda said about West was actually true... and their rosy image of West was a lie.

Now, Soviet propaganda also was lying about things happening in USSR, but as USSR no longer existed it didn't matter as much as West that was still there...

Because China have claims to parts of Siberia, just like Putin claimed Crimea, I'm sure you've got no idea of this, but I doubt it's on the front page of RT's news coverage, according to your pov Russia and China are best pals lol.

China occupying Siberia is one of things Americans wish to believe are true because real alliance between Russia and China is too scary for them to consider.

They don't even try to boast "We can take on Russia AND China combined"... because they actually cannot.

[Megraam]

I'm sure this was all part of Kremlin's masterplan of purging Crimea from western influences.

Poor ukranians, buying something in Kiev should be harsh. I guess prices skyrocketed as well.

[MerinPally]

No, what was mind blowing to Russians in 90's is that almost everything Soviet propaganda said about West was actually true... and their rosy image of West was a lie.

This surpasses funny, this surpasses sad, it's actually kinda terrifying.

Your bias is nauseating; your ignorance, astounding.

[Crispin]

Hold on, so Russian propaganda said stuff like, "in the west you decide who leads the country, there are no Gulags for people who have another opinion, their prosperous life gives room for the individual" and so on and so forth?

What real alliance? noone in the west consider Russia and China allied, neither do China.

And China really invading Russia is not something the west "dreams" of, it's pretty darn obvious that we'd get sucked right into it.

The fact that Russia promotes China as an ally is laughable at best, the problem is that Russia cant take on China nor USA by themselves, not that anyone cares since I doubt we'll see a war.

[Megraam]

The fact that Russia promotes China as an ally is laughable at best, the problem is that Russia cant take on China nor Russia by themselves, not that anyone cares since I doubt we'll see a war.

Sorry, your post doesn't make any sense to me.

[Crispin]

Aye, didnt expect you to figure it out yourself, which is why propaganda works so well on you.

[Kasierith]

This surpasses funny, this surpasses sad, it's actually kinda terrifying.

Your bias is nauseating; your ignorance, astounding.

While clearly hyperbolic, his post does have a hint of truth. The expectations for what would happen with the fall of the Soviets did not at all match up with what the people hoped would happen. One thing to remember is that for countries like West Germany, which had a significant impact on exposing Soviets to Western ideology, did not just spring up after the war; the United States had a heavy hand in reinvigorating the country and bringing it up. Russia, on the other hand, was a country that had grown to be reliant on its satellites; for example, Kazahkstan was vital for the Soviet economy as a means to feed the country. Thus, the collapse reduced the Russian support systems, as opposed to increasing them (and led to numerous problems in Central Asia including one that is pretty much nothing but a giant cartel). People who had previously had ensured employment by the state were suddenly jobless, and there was no massive market ready to step in and invigorate the private sector. What did happen was that those who came out of the USSR with a lot of influence took a heavy hand in forcing economic and political changes in their own favor. Marketing scams and fraud became abundant, and poverty skyrocketed as they monopolized multiple industries.

An example of this is the housing market. Upon the fall of the USSR, every citizen was given their own home to live in (or an equivalent amount of funds) that was their own private property. One company in particular realized an opening, and simultaneously skyrocketed the price of food and goods, and then offered to buy out people's houses. People who suddenly had no job had no choice but to sell their home so they could afford the elevated food prices.... and then found themselves trapped through rental systems designed for extortion rather than accomodation. In the years after the collapse, Russia produced more billionaires than any other country at the time, as the oligarchs collected their wealth either through extorting the people or consolidating the structures left behind by the USSR and dismantling public support systems.

[Shalcker]

Regional autonomy can work - but not at the degree Russia was pushing for, and not when its a pretext for breaking up the country.

Hey, we never actually said which degree is acceptable as Kiev refused to discuss it, so you cannot claim that our expected degree was too much.

The problem with it is that it was a recipe crafted to break Ukraine up. Those regions would have had their autonomy and they'd have Putoins cronies in charge by virtue of the armed volunteers who taken charge of the areas. They'd make deals with Russia, and tell Kiev where to go.

Well, alternative is Kiev telling them where to go... and where Kiev tells them to go is where their factories get closed down, their coal mines get closed down, and they become shadow of their former economic power... Why would you force that on them? Why would they agree?

Kiev broken social contract that held country together. What they are trying to create now will absolutely NOT hold for long.

And why should Putin care? Annexing Crimea, money drain that it is, gives him all those Black Sea mineral rights he's been trying to get for years. Stirring up trouble in Donetsk and Luhansk simply keeps Kiev busy.

Kiev had Crimea for how long? And still couldn't make it profitable due to their corruption.

We can.

The observers who were kept out of the penninsula by the little green men?

You CHOSE to not send other observers there. Easier to claim voting is rigged if you refuse to confirm or deny it independently.

The referendum with a 93% In favor rate, a rate not even God could achieve in a fair contest?

Hey, should i point 90+% results in Germany? It is in fact quite possible in "true" democracies for various reasons.

In a referendum boycotted by huge sections of the Crimean population? A referendum rushed through and overseen by a government who had seized power by the gun and support from the Russian military? A military whose armed presence was ever pervavsive on election day? A referendum which offered biased questions, little chance or opportunity for debate and where those saying no were "encouraged" to stay away.

Amount of people boycotting was still insufficient to change referendum results. Referendum was overseen by government that was ELECTED by Crimeans before that. Referendum offered option of staying within Ukraine - which wasn't taken, but everyone knew it was exactly that, and Crimean government even said they'll resign if that option will get majority.

Crimeas so called referendum was a rigged contest organised by Russian cronies, supported by the Russian military, and vouched for by Russian political officers. In a land where two thirds opposed unification with Russia just a month or so previously.

In the land where noone believed unification with Russia was possible just a month ago. Well, things do change rapidly nowdays.

Russia agreed to recognise the borders of Ukraine.

Borders that Ukraine still haven't got around to properly demarcating by 2014 btw...

It did so by occupying Crimea and staging a rigged referendum. A nice new tactics....send in its own thugs to take over and browbeat the local population, then have those same thugs use a local mouthpiece to declare independence and use that as an excuse to send in the troops and arrange a rigged referendum to make it look all nice and cosy.

Worked for Kosovo. And West didn't even bother with referendum there - just accepted parliament vote.

Why does Russia get to dictate what Ukraine does?

Because we were subsidising their economy for decades at this point. We knew their situation perfectly well, and even said how much it would cost for Ukraine to follow on Association Agreement - money nor EU nor US are willing to give.

We said "Okay, then how about we talk and get agreement that considers all interests, Ukraine, Russia, and EU?" EU refused and said that it's a matter between just them and Ukraine.

Well, what is happening now is just a matter between Russia and Ukraine too. Same logic.

If you didn't want free trade, you shouldn't have joined.

It's a lot more complicated then that. Some sectors get boosted, some sectors suffer, all about having right balance of freedom and protections.

Putins decision to strip food away from his people won't really hurt Europes farmers that much. But it will affect thoose in Russia.

Yes, it will make it easier for Russian farmers to sell their production at decent prices.

And he's getting a price from the Chinese that's barely more than it costs to produce it. That isn't a huge foreign poilicy success. That's China driving a very hard bargain and him taking what he could get.

We weren't doing those talks for what... decade? To get "what we could get". Chinese driven hard bargain and so did we. In the end we got solution that satisfied both sides.

And "cost to produce" for gas in Russia is extremely low, it's physically impossible for that gas to cost "barely more". Maybe if it would be 150 instead of claimed 350...

[Kasierith]

Hold on, so Russian propaganda said stuff like, "in the west you decide who leads the country, there are no Gulags for people who have another opinion, their prosperous life gives room for the individual" and so on and so forth?

What real alliance? noone in the west consider Russia and China allied, neither do China.

Actually, Soviet propaganda was more oriented towards moral depravity. The Soviets did their best to depict the average American as an overweight, greedy fat cat who would sell his mother for a dollar if someone made the offer. They described capitalism as a corrupting influence that caused one to forget things that are important in life. The "there's starvation and genocide in America!" propaganda was pretty much extremely minimal, and only became prominent through Western Media using it essentailly as a caricature to mock the propaganda altogether.

[MerinPally]

-snip-

And whos fault is any of that? That's Russians shitting on Russians because they want to rich and then concluding that they got shit on because the west is evil. Whilst obviously not true, that's a reasonable sentiment to be feeling - back then. It is not one that it makes any sense clinging to almost 25 years on. Thus it's one out of ignorance. They made their own problems and then blame someone else for it.

[Elim Garak]

Even your Putin recognized it. Get with the times.
Military personal entering a foreign soil without being allowed to : Invasion.

Putin never recognized no invasion because there wasn't any.
Russian troops in Crimea were there legally. Not a single Russian soldier crossed the Ukrainian border.
There was no invasion. No matter how strongly you want to believe your media and politicians.

[Kasierith]

And whos fault is any of that? That's Russians shitting on Russians because they want to rich and then concluding that they got shit on because the west is evil. Whilst obviously not true, that's a reasonable sentiment to be feeling - back then. It is not one that it makes any sense clinging to almost 25 years on. Thus it's one out of ignorance.

At what point exactly did I say that the Western countries were in any way to blame for that? I was giving the background information for why Russians who don't know better can come to certain conclusion, and the reasoning why a lot of older Russians noticed a significant drop in quality of life following the collapse.

[Deleted]

Most of the russians are living in an alternate reality, don't try to reason with them, they are too brainwashed by their propaganda and are beyond saving.

[Marcellus1986]

Putin never recognized no invasion because there wasn't any.
Russian troops in Crimea were there legally. Not a single Russian soldier crossed the Ukrainian border.
There was no invasion. No matter how strongly you want to believe your media and politicians.

You're right. It was "militia", using uniforms, weapons, and vehicles that are only issued by the Russian Federation.

Onllllllyyyyyy "militia"

Silly Kremlin trolls.


[Infracted]

[Deleted]

You're right. It was "militia", using uniforms, weapons, and vehicles that are only issued by the Russian Federation.

Onllllllyyyyyy "militia"

Silly Kremlin trolls.

Yes, also its all Merica's fault!
They lured poor russians into attacking their neighbors those evil americans


[Infracted]

[MerinPally]

At what point exactly did I say that the Western countries were in any way to blame for that? I was giving the background information for why Russians who don't know better can come to certain conclusion, and the reasoning why a lot of older Russians noticed a significant drop in quality of life following the collapse.

Not you, Shalcker. The argument used is one by the old soviets, things were better back then (for them) and it was only once the west got involved that things went tits up, and that all the positive stuff about the west was a lie. But the positive stuff about the west was not a lie, it was true, it was just prevented from being a shared truth in Russia due to the acts of the Russians. They fucked up their own system and then concluded that the rosy image of the west was a lie, when it was not.

[burek]

Most of the russians are living in an alternate reality, don't try to reason with them, they are too brainwashed by their propaganda and are beyond saving.

claiming such a thing is pretty ironic

[Marcellus1986]

claiming such a thing is pretty ironic

No, it really isn't. Especially with people linking Russia Today and other state run media.