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  1. #1

    SoO HC: Dark Shamans or Malkorok?

    Hello!

    We have killed Nazgrim HC the other week, skipping Shamans because at the time we didn't have 3 tanks and Nazgrim looked easier... now that we have killed him, we have a dilemma... should we go for Shamans or Malkorok?

    Been reading up a bit about both and it looks like we don't have a great setup for either of them, here is our team:

    Guardian Druid
    Guardian Druid
    Prot/Holy Paladin
    Resto Druid
    Resto/Ele Shaman
    Frost DK
    Fury Warrior
    BM Hunter
    Affli/Destro Warlock
    Destro Warlock

    With ilvl ranging between 565/570ish

    So we have 2-3 Tanks and 2-3 Healers. For Shamans I understand that the 3 Tanks strategy is a lot easier, but you either have to 3 heal it (if we 3 tank we dont have a 3rd healer) or have a healer with absorbs, but our healers would be resto shaman and resto druid. For Malkorok the ideal strategy seems to have just 1 Tank soak the cleaves alone, but I've heard that can only be done by Brewmasters and Prot pallies, and we have 2 Bears...

    So, since we can't go for the easiest strategies, what's gonna be better, 2 tank Shamans or 2 tank Malkorok?

  2. #2
    You can 3 tank 2 heal with any healer combination you have. Why is it a must to 3 heal?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by chuachua View Post
    You can 3 tank 2 heal with any healer combination you have. Why is it a must to 3 heal?
    I didn't say it's a must, but most if not all of the posts and guides I've read say it's easier if you 3 heal it. Or if people 2 heal it 99% of the time they have a Disc that can bubble for Iron Prisons, or other healers with absorbs. We haven't tried the fight yet, but apparently Iron Prisons is cast very often and people may not always have a personal cd ready, so if you dont have a healer with absorbs you can't avoid those deaths?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlily View Post
    I didn't say it's a must, but most if not all of the posts and guides I've read say it's easier if you 3 heal it. Or if people 2 heal it 99% of the time they have a Disc that can bubble for Iron Prisons, or other healers with absorbs. We haven't tried the fight yet, but apparently Iron Prisons is cast very often and people may not always have a personal cd ready, so if you dont have a healer with absorbs you can't avoid those deaths?
    With 3 tanks you want to 2 heal. I believe you only 3 heal if you're using 2 tanks.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    The bigger issue I would see for Dark Shamans is having 2 Melee DPS on a 10man kill. Makes things 100% more complicated. The fight just isn't melee friendly at all; ideally you'd have the Melee DPS with the Tank OS there just to make your life easier. About 2 or 3 Healers really depends on how strong your healers (and your DPS!) are. We can easily 2heal it (used 3 just for the slack and no issues on the DPS requirement, also it helped with getting a Melee DPS through the blobs to be safe), but it's really trying out what works for you. A combo that works great for some groups might be painful for you just because it's not the same players at the classes.

    Same for Malkorok really, I find it easy to 2heal/2tank as our Resto Druid is really strong and allows the second healer to be anything (2healed it with both RDru/Mistweaver and RDru/Disc without issues).

    But as said - trial and error. I'd possibly suggest Malk just because of those 2 Melee DPS. Frost DK is strong on Malk, too (can soak all melee puddles and also grip in the adds). The 2 Guardian Tanks are not that much fun of course. Maybe I should reconsider and say: If your Healers are really strong, go for Dark Shamans and use 3 Tanks/2Heals.
    Last edited by mmoc0db2352a9d; 2014-05-12 at 10:14 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlily View Post
    We haven't tried the fight yet, but apparently Iron Prisons is cast very often and people may not always have a personal cd ready, so if you dont have a healer with absorbs you can't avoid those deaths?
    The iron prisons are cast every 30 seconds on 2 people, last for one minute and are never cast on people that already have the debuff. This means you can get prisoned once every minute max. All your classes can deal with this on their own without any externals.

    Warlocks: Sacrificial Pact
    Warrior/DK: Def Stance/Blood Presence
    Hunter: Aspect of the Iron Hawk
    Resto Druid: Ironbark
    Resto Shaman: Stone Bulwark Totem

    You should definitely 3 tank 2 heal. Just send the paladin, your stronger healer and one bear with Haromm while rest stay with Kardris. Melee are also not a problem as long as your tank is quick to move Kardris out of the purple things and doesn't spawn the blobs right on Kardris so melee can keep hacking the boss.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Cathaia View Post
    But as said - trial and error. I'd possibly suggest Malk just because of those 2 Melee DPS. Frost DK is strong on Malk, too (can soak all melee puddles and also grip in the adds). The 2 Guardian Tanks are not that much fun of course. Maybe I should reconsider and say: If your Healers are really strong, go for Dark Shamans and use 3 Tanks/2Heals.
    Thanks, I think this week we'll try Malkorok, our druid healer is good, but I (the resto/ele shaman) am used to mostly dps, I'm ok when I have to pop in as the 3rd healer, but 2 healing a healing intensive fight is not something I look forward to!

  8. #8
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    we killed dark shamans with 3 tank / 3 heal tactic and worked very well. 2 healers (resto shaman, disc priest ) and 2 tanks ( warrior, monk ) at top and rest of the raid circling around.

    coordinate your cds, immunities etc. and dark shamans are easier than most people claim. found malkorok much harder than shamans but we only spent 1 raid night on him.
    Last edited by Huntermyth; 2014-05-12 at 04:36 PM.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Louis CK View Post
    With 3 tanks you want to 2 heal. I believe you only 3 heal if you're using 2 tanks.
    People were 3 healing at the very beginning when an average ilvl was much lower. I personally got to this fight like 2 month after the launch and solo healed two tanks on the hill cause gear allowed it. I remember the learning process was stressful cause of the weight of responsibility mostly and the toxic mist debuff.

    To OP: Shamans are pretty well suited to heal Haromm group. So is paladin,but he is your 3rd tank so keep him as a tank. Your group has enough personal cds to handle the prisons, so go for shamans.

  10. #10
    We 3 heal 3 tanked our first few Shaman kills. The DPS req is pretty low.

    2 healing with no absorbs at the bottom might be tough. The tanking requirement on this fight is very low up top... I highly suggest having your DK (or Warrior, but DK played well could be self sufficient up top) just go tank spec for this fight. and either 3 tank 3 heal or 3 tank 2 heal with your Holy Paladin being one of the healers. He doesn't need tank gear, just use the spec and it should be enough.

    Malkorok is a significant step up in difficulty. Dark Shaman is in line with the rest of the first 8 bosses with the 3 tank 2/3 heal strat, IMO.

  11. #11
    Deleted
    With your roster go shamans going up pala tank, 1 druid tank and shaman healer (no dps). This way the healer has to heal himself and that's it, the debuff on tanks is easy to heal and both tanks must help with healing. Pala tank has hand of purification which is really, really lifesaver (use it for the last 8seconds of the debuff on the healer). If your main spec is dps, druid heal could also heal the 2 tank group, with a paladin there is quite easy (hand of purification!)

    In the bottom if anyone dies is just his own fault, every class has cds, the healing requirement is a joke (~70k hps).

  12. #12
    The answer to your question is very easy. Shamans BEFORE Malkorok. It's not even close. Yes, you can 3 heal 3 tank easy for shamans. You have a dk and a warrior. Hell even the dk in dps gear as blood would be perfectly fine.

  13. #13
    We downed the fight 3 tank 2 heal with ~550 ilvl.

    The healing demand is laughable on both top and bottom, we sent the holy paladin/disc priest up the hill and keep the resto shaman/resto druid at the bottom of the hill and have people pop personals for prisons.

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  14. #14
    I'd say Dark shamans. You have the same healers as we do in our raidgroup, myself (shaman) healing "downstairs" and our druid solohealing "top". No problem at all. Your setup have people that can mitigate the debuff themselves which they should do and use Cd's accordingly. Just get 3 tanks and it should be NP.

  15. #15
    Shaman was far easier for us. We went for malk first and put 60-70 wipes on him and the week after we killed shaman in 12 pulls. Though we did have one of our melee switch to a mage.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlily View Post
    For Malkorok the ideal strategy seems to have just 1 Tank soak the cleaves alone, but I've heard that can only be done by Brewmasters and Prot pallies, and we have 2 Bears...
    Shamans is an easier fight but... that Malkorok comment made me giggle. Any tank can solo soak Blood Rage, and it just happens there's a thread on the first page of the druid forum here with all the information you need to do it (with a bear tank).

  17. #17
    Malkorok the ideal strategy seems to have just 1 Tank soak the cleaves alone, but I've heard that can only be done by Brewmasters and Prot pallies, and we have 2 Bears...
    I also missed this part. It's really easy to solo tank bloodrage with any class. Use Major CD + AoE reduction trinket for first half, then any remaining CD + external or two for the rest. If you want to throw all your externals in at that point to feel safer, go ahead. Our blood DK takes literally zero damage during that fight if cooldowns are used correctly. If neither tank has the AoE reduction trinket, just replace that with another external.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    We do it with 3 tanks, but the guy that casts those iron prisons will be done by disc + tank, the rest goes up the hill.

    That way the non-tank-debuff mob will try to cast iron prison 30 seconds long, every minute, but fail everytime because there are no more eligible targets (tank and disc have it all the time and after 30s he goes into cast frenzy mode)

    While we did to 3 tank & heal the fight I was always sure I could handle the mountain alone ( the whole group is there except 1 tank and 1 heal ) and it worked, but wasn't a breeze. Enrage isnt tight enough so if you feel pressured, take 1 heal + whatever heal for top.

    Since the people that you let stay down are limited on 2 it is enough to get 2 classes, that are capable of surviving the iron prison once per minute. Most tanks can do that anyway and for healers I think everyone except shaman ( although shaman can do it his bullwark totem is not something I would rely on, because it might break unfortunately to eg meteor resulting in a reset )

    Edit:

    Malkorok blood rage can be done by guardians. We have a guardian tanking the blood rage solo and he doesn't even need a lot of externals I think he takes max hp and 10% banner from the warrior and that's it.

    As for dark shaman, guardian + disc do the bottom for us, but resto druid and guardian would work aswell. Our druid just struggles to much to be put on duty there.
    Last edited by mmocb22685c122; 2014-05-13 at 03:31 AM.

  19. #19
    Shamans using any strat is a ton easier than malkorok. First 8 heroic bosses are super easy, a nice smooth extension of normal.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonlily View Post
    For Malkorok the ideal strategy seems to have just 1 Tank soak the cleaves alone, but I've heard that can only be done by Brewmasters and Prot pallies, and we have 2 Bears...
    shamans is definitely easier than malkorok.

    some advice for malkorok though, any tank can solo soak its just a matter of personal cooldowns and external cooldowns. however a safer strat that you can use is to stampeding roar the 2 sets of debuffs. stampeding roar removes the root and prevents the explosion. you have 3 druids so everyone can stay stacked up except for someone that can clean up orbs and then one druid casts stampeding roar for the first set and then a different druid casts for the second set. roar will be back up for the second blood rage if needed. the tanks wont get a ton of vengeance this way but you wont have to worry about them dying either.

    as for shamans, you dont have to 3 heal if you 3 tank but things can get dicey with the haromm group so its sometimes a good idea to have 2 healers there and 1 on kardris.

    last option would be to gear up the dk or warrior tank shamans. they dont need a crazy amount of gear to do it. just a few pieces.
    Last edited by Lessthanzer0; 2014-05-14 at 05:40 PM.
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