Top 10 List - Necessary DK Changes

[Deleted]

I've seen nothing but arguing over this talent row since it was made and the conclusion has always been (in PVE at least) that they're so closely tied with each other as to be kind of pointless. Mind you, I'm a tank so I'm not super interested in doing 2% more damage. I'm interested in Death Strike fluidity.

I actually prefer tiers like the Death's Advance one. I near always take Death Advance and sometimes end up with Chillblains but I feel like an actual choice is being made. The rune refresh tier is literally the only tier across all the classes I play that I literally don't know the names of the 3 abilities and what they do specifically off the top of my head. I picked one at the start of 5.0 and it hasn't mattered since. I literally had to log into check my Blood DK -- I'm using Runic Corruption.

Most boring talent tier ever.

Not arguing with that. But the tier is not that boring because all offer the same performance. It's because they offer the same gameplay.
(On a side note: even as a tank dps should be a concern of yours. Not top priority, but once you hold aggro and don't die (and don't give the healers a heart attack trying to keep you alive), you should go for damage. tank damage in MoP is more important then ever, and on some fights tanks can easily surpass the dps in ...dps)

[Clash the DK]

1. don't see how KM procing on FS would be more awkward than having it proc just when you pressed FS (for 2h) or OB (for dw).
2. the problem would be that you'd use those death runes for SS, and dropped FeS out of your rotation. Then you'd have to use your blood runes on BB.
3. as I said, would be a huge and needed buff to our movement, but contrary to our class identity
4. 2% less than gamed RE/BT is NOT crap. what is crap is that macroed BT is just as passive as RC but gives more runes
6. As I said, baseline buff to our defenses. Nothing would change for blood, unholy and frost would be less squishy
7. If you take conversion/DP anyway, then it doesn't matter what rune DSi is on. Them using the same rune is intentional, seeing as DSi offers more healing than both conversion and DP
9. You do realise your idea is just "HB without the ae, additionally to HB"? That is a pretty good case for button bloat. I agree frost doesn't have enough main abilities, but something like that wouldn't help.
10. Because it can get dispelled? probably intentional.

1. I don't think we should aim for "less awkward".

2. If the damage ratio between SS and FeS took us into that direction, then they could just change the cost of FeS to 1 Blood Rune. That would at least create a more evenly distributed rotation. (FeSx2 + SSx2 ---> SSx6 versus FeSx2 + SSx4 ---> SSx6)

4. The difference is not 2% for DW Frost.

7. They could always just buff Conversion and Death Pact if that was indeed the case.

9. Yes, it would be just like Howling Blast without the AoE. That's the whole point. Plus there would be a cool visual effect.

10. The fact that our execute ability can be dispelled in the first place is reason enough to lower the detonate time to 3 seconds. But that's not the only reason.

[Schizoide]

4. The difference is not 2% for DW Frost.

https://twitter.com/jakobsohn/status...516417/photo/1

RC sims at -2.6% for DW frost, and that's the largest variance across specs for the rune regen tier. I agree that's more than enough for me to not use it, particularly since macroed BT is also passive so it's free DPS. But the difference really is quite small. If someone prefers RC for whatever personal reason I wouldn't necessarily say they're doing it wrong.

The problem is the FAQs say to do it one way because they're based upon simcraft output. But simcraft profiles and action lists are polished and optimized to extreme degrees. That's not wrong; they need to be fully optimized for comparative purposes. The problem is when people aren't aware of the true variance between options, so they do things like using un-macroed Blood Tap, or the old pre-buff Plague Leech, and don't realize that they can't live up to the perfect play of the sim and are actually hurting their performance-- or at best, adding unneeded and unrewarded complexity to their gameplay.

[Deleted]

1. I don't think we should aim for "less awkward".

2. If the damage ratio between SS and FeS took us into that direction, then they could just change the cost of FeS to 1 Blood Rune. That would at least create a more evenly distributed rotation. (FeSx2 + SSx2 ---> SSx6 versus FeSx2 + SSx4 ---> SSx6)

4. The difference is not 2% for DW Frost.

7. They could always just buff Conversion and Death Pact if that was indeed the case.

9. Yes, it would be just like Howling Blast without the AoE. That's the whole point. Plus there would be a cool visual effect.

10. The fact that our execute ability can be dispelled in the first place is reason enough to lower the detonate time to 3 seconds. But that's not the only reason.

1. sooo... more awkward then?

2. OH, you want to have the same rotation as dw-frost, why didn't you say so in the first place? Trust me, you don't.

4. Oh, you're right, sorry for that. It's actually only 1%. (Source: elitist jerks frost-dk guide. I think mendenbarr is a pretty reliable source regarding numbers)

7. to... make DSi useless for pvp i guess? why would you want that?

9. that's exactly the kind of button bloat the dev's try to reduce. artificially bloating the frost rotation doesn't help at all (It wouldn't, by the way. the rotation would be exactly the same as now, you just replace one ability with another).
Agree that dks are lacking visuals, and need a lot more of them.

10. So what are the others? It would be easier to discuss if you just told me.
The only thing that would change is that it's less likely that something happens inbetween application of SR and triggering it's debuff. What could happen inbetween? The target could die. As I said, then why bother applying it (also, you still get a haste-buff). Or it could get dispelled. Or the target could pop a def cd, but 3s still is more then enough time to do so.
Oh yeah, healing. Thanks for telling me. Same argument as for dispelling though: probably intentional to reduce burst-dmg

[Skarssen]

I think that Frost should be a DW based spec and Unholy a 2h based spec.

You take away 2h frost then you have to give us back blood DPS. I'm not interested in dual wielding, and I won't play some glorified pussy warlock in plate that barely tickles enemies with its weapons and relies on pets and magic to do all of its damage. I don't want to play an arms warrior, but if they turn ALL DK specs into spell casting nancy-boy weaklings I guess I won't have much choice.

[Shiira]

I'm still using unmacrod blood tap, I'm aware of the issues but this class is dull enough as it is.

[Schizoide]

I'm still using unmacrod blood tap, I'm aware of the issues but this class is dull enough as it is.

If you actually enjoy it that's perfectly fine. But the problem remains; it is best macroed.

[Shiira]

I don't enjoy it but anything that makes the number of buttons I press regularly slightly harder to count on one hand is welcome at this point.

[valliant13]

Huge No.
If it costs me getting occasionally trolled by KM proccing when my finger is already pressing the skill suboptimal for my current subspec, so be it.
Much rather this than even more dull homogenization.

So spamming Obliterate and FS as 2H and HB and FS as dw is fun? I personally would rather Blizz bring back Blood DPS get rid of 2H Frost(since all it really is, is blood dps with the big huge crits) make frost dw only and unholy stays close to the same. I'm actually really upset they are bringing a protection dps spec for warriors into the game before giving dks back blood dps. This way they could merge the current frost subspecs back into one frost spec(similar to how we played in wotlk) and the spec would be a lot less dull than it is now.

[Challenge]

1. Agree

2. None of our tiers are useless. There are useless talents in some tiers, but the tiers themselves all contain at least one useful choice. Tier 75 being that useful is NOT a problem, except if you are not level 75 yet, which is adressed in WoD by switching it with tier 60. Difference between the 3 talents should be bigger though.

3. Most classes are in this situation. Nothing dk-specific, and apperently the desired goal. 3 AMS-glyphs are a bit excessive, but not really a problem

4. That would be nice, but not doable without a class overhaul

5. Simple balance-problem. Also we'll have to wait how the hp-changes in WoD turn out.

6. See my other post, not a problem

7. Agree, except on the lich: Lorewise, Lich and DK are equally powerful. A DK summoning a Lich would be ridiculous

8. BS is useful for unholy until lvl 62 (when you get FeS), except BB does more damage AND is AE. It's useless for frost though.
Apart from that, first you complain about losing class identity, than you continue advocating removal of presences and diseases. Ever thought about what if it were the other way round? Would you complain then that DKs are losing identity with the removal of presences and diseases? and that the stike modifier and AotD were a relic of the past and should go? A lot of players complain just for the sake of complaining, and this looks like the perfect example. Just saying.

9. KM needs to get looked at: Soul Fire treatment and not proc on auto attacks.
AMS: there's a glyph for that in WoD (you complained about that, remember)
if you make AMS no longer generate RP and increase the scaling of haste, that would have EXACTLY the effect you try to avoid: too strong in the first tier, useless in the last

10. Agree

1. Ok

2.Useful and largely predetermined are different. " You can take this one and be alright, or take one of these two which is useless in almost every scenario for you. " t75 Needs to compliment the death knight resource system instead completing it if that makes sense. Hunter t60 and Monk t30 are examples that spring to mind.

3. Ok.

4. Not really.

5. More of a QoL problem. Necrotic strike acts as a game finisher in PvP, makes sense it would cost RP instead and benefit from both SD and KM. Depending on damage tuning, it could be another useless button bloat for frost. AT the very least could go back to unholy runes but eh.

6. Ok

7. There are many things that could be put in its place, twas just a example.

8. To be more clear, I dont want to hold onto relics for the sake of idenity. Presences if they did something compelling and not horribly mimic warrior stances now, I would want to keep them. Having a second disease with no interaction at all is pointless to me. Could one guess how long it would take in mastery levels before 2h frost ignores blood plague, depending on number tuning and plaguebearer doesnt make it live in this form. Im sure 2h frost would quickly ignore it in pvp aswell but gotta wait and see number tuning. Why would aotd go? It has a purpose, especially in solo play and challenge modes.

Imagination is the limit on what they could replace these things with, such as empowered frost fever to keep 2 dots for a frost spec.

9. You know stating something is silly is not the same as complaining. It wouldn't matter cause the only AMS glyph that looks remotely useful is regenerative magic. I can probably safely predict the other 2 wont hold much light in this current form, especially with other new glyphs.

I see your point on haste scaling, however it can still be worked, with a higher rune regen base, and lower haste scaling.

10. Ok

[Clash the DK]

4. Oh, you're right, sorry for that. It's actually only 1%. (Source: elitist jerks frost-dk guide. I think mendenbarr is a pretty reliable source regarding numbers)

Mendenbarr is indeed a very reliable source regarding numbers. But the Sim results reflect more than just numbers. The default priority list for DW Frost is Masterfrost. That works fine for BT or RC, but RE really shines with Mastersimple. You would need to tweak the current priority list in order to customize that effect. Furthermore, the Sim results are based on single target. The gaming of BT and RE totally out-paces RC in any AoE situation because those Unholy Runes become even more worthless. With the amount of encounters that include adds this tier, the default single target Sim results are almost moot.

So no, it's not a 1% or 2% difference just because you read it that way at Elitist Jerks.

[Deleted]

2.Useful and largely predetermined are different. " You can take this one and be alright, or take one of these two which is useless in almost every scenario for you. " t75 Needs to compliment the death knight resource system instead completing it if that makes sense. Hunter t60 and Monk t30 are examples that spring to mind.

4. Not really.

5. More of a QoL problem. Necrotic strike acts as a game finisher in PvP, makes sense it would cost RP instead and benefit from both SD and KM. Depending on damage tuning, it could be another useless button bloat for frost. AT the very least could go back to unholy runes but eh.

8. To be more clear, I dont want to hold onto relics for the sake of idenity. Presences if they did something compelling and not horribly mimic warrior stances now, I would want to keep them. Having a second disease with no interaction at all is pointless to me. Could one guess how long it would take in mastery levels before 2h frost ignores blood plague, depending on number tuning and plaguebearer doesnt make it live in this form. Im sure 2h frost would quickly ignore it in pvp aswell but gotta wait and see number tuning. Why would aotd go? It has a purpose, especially in solo play and challenge modes.

Imagination is the limit on what they could replace these things with, such as empowered frost fever to keep 2 dots for a frost spec.

9. You know stating something is silly is not the same as complaining. It wouldn't matter cause the only AMS glyph that looks remotely useful is regenerative magic. I can probably safely predict the other 2 wont hold much light in this current form, especially with other new glyphs.

I see your point on haste scaling, however it can still be worked, with a higher rune regen base, and lower haste scaling.

2. That is the essence of the new talent system: Having situational abilities, or abilities you can choose based on personal preferences. You can see that in every talent tree for all classes. Not dk-specific, and largely intended.
There is no problem with Tier 75 completing our rune regeneration, that's its intention. The problem is they are way to similar and offer the same gameplay

4. Currently, you will always use deathrunes for whichever is most benefitial to you, which is: DS for blood, HB for dw, OB for 2h, SS for uh.
Exception are abilities that consume Death runes, which are DSi and NS, but you only use those in PvP.

5. As I said, let's wait for WoD to see how NS is balanced. Don't see why NS costing RP would be better than runes. The argumentation works in reverse too:
DW cant sacrifice FS for NS because it's such a large part of its damage, UH cant sacrifice DC because it needs the stacks on its ghoul for DT

8. It just seems random which class elements are flavor, and which are relics. Why is a second disease more outdated than strike modifiers? Why is Ghoul flavor but presences bloat?

9. So higher base regen, but less scaling. That's the exact opposite of what you said in your first post.
The problem is then balancing between secondary stats. If haste increases your speed, but mastery/crit offer higher damage you don't take haste at all.

- - - Updated - - -

Mendenbarr is indeed a very reliable source regarding numbers. But the Sim results reflect more than just numbers. The default priority list for DW Frost is Masterfrost. That works fine for BT or RC, but RE really shines with Mastersimple. You would need to tweak the current priority list in order to customize that effect. Furthermore, the Sim results are based on single target. The gaming of BT and RE totally out-paces RC in any AoE situation because those Unholy Runes become even more worthless. With the amount of encounters that include adds this tier, the default single target Sim results are almost moot.

So no, it's not a 1% or 2% difference just because you read it that way at Elitist Jerks.

Have you run simulations yourself? if so, please tell us how big the difference between RC and RE/BT is for mastersimple.
Differentiating between DW ST and AoE is also moot, since that is essentially the same rotation.

[Skarssen]

Why is a second disease more outdated than strike modifiers? Why is Ghoul flavor but presences bloat?

Because so many people can't seem to see the distinction between personal preferences and fact. I think people that post on forums such as these are more....passionate......about the game than the general player and feel very strongly that their own opinions are somehow shared by others more than they really are.

[Challenge]

2. That is the essence of the new talent system: Having situational abilities, or abilities you can choose based on personal preferences. You can see that in every talent tree for all classes. Not dk-specific, and largely intended.
There is no problem with Tier 75 completing our rune regeneration, that's its intention. The problem is they are way to similar and offer the same gameplay

4. Currently, you will always use deathrunes for whichever is most benefitial to you, which is: DS for blood, HB for dw, OB for 2h, SS for uh.
Exception are abilities that consume Death runes, which are DSi and NS, but you only use those in PvP.

5. As I said, let's wait for WoD to see how NS is balanced. Don't see why NS costing RP would be better than runes. The argumentation works in reverse too:
DW cant sacrifice FS for NS because it's such a large part of its damage, UH cant sacrifice DC because it needs the stacks on its ghoul for DT

8. It just seems random which class elements are flavor, and which are relics. Why is a second disease more outdated than strike modifiers? Why is Ghoul flavor but presences bloat?

9. So higher base regen, but less scaling. That's the exact opposite of what you said in your first post.
The problem is then balancing between secondary stats. If haste increases your speed, but mastery/crit offer higher damage you don't take haste at all.

2. Again its not really personal preference when its pretty obvious what talents you should take unless you want to gimp yourself. Also still stands if lets say I was fighting malkorok. As unholy I could go with 0 talents except t75 and 0 glyphs and preform well. I dont think any other class can do that, but I could be wrong.

4. Right. For blood having UH and FS runes turn into death runes is kinda pointless? You would spend it on death strike regardless. For that example it would make more sense for blood runes to turn into death runes since ironically they leasted valued for blood.

The way the system works is runic power is supposed to be a finisher esq move. However its oppsite in PvP in which the end goal is just to get death runes, not runic power, which is just a byproduct. Necrotic strike acts like a ability that tries to end the fight, something that thematically, fits runic power more.

5. Which is why having it effected by KM and SD would make up for this. Frost you would choose a big hit with FS or a "crit" (double absorb) NS, or as unholy you can choose the damage/healing of death coil or retain the rapid fire necrotic strike stacking playstyle that currently is in game. Only is it doesnt add DT stacks which could be solved or added.

8. I dont think strike modifer was really outdated I like it but its already intended to go, so the byprotduct is that 2 diseases are being left behind without interaction is outdated to me. (ASSUMING nothing changes). Because you actually used ghoul, regardless if it was a super large DPS cooldown or not as blood and frost on a regular basis.

The amount of times I've had to use blood presence as a DPS in PvE this entire expansion and even last expansion I can count on one hand. Same for blood spec and unholy/frost presence (asides from the 10% movement speed for coming back during wipes.)

9. Spit balling stuff but you get the idea here. Being balanced around AMS soaking is no good, but with the change it may be alright now so haste changing might not matter.

- - - Updated - - -

Because so many people can't seem to see the distinction between personal preferences and fact. I think people that post on forums such as these are more....passionate......about the game than the general player and feel very strongly that their own opinions are somehow shared by others more than they really are.

I dont know any class that has more than 1 DoT without some sort of class synergy. Just a obvservation

[Skarssen]

I dont know any class that has more than 1 DoT without some sort of class synergy. Just a obvservation

I totally agree. Diseases add nothing interesting to game play now, and Blizzard is making it even more mindless to keep them up in WoD. Why we NEED 2 pointless DoTs is beyond me.

And I wasn't responding to anyone in particular, just addressing how some seem to consider their own opinions as absolutes, and are unable to comprehend that others could ever disagree with them.

[Deleted]

2. Again its not really personal preference when its pretty obvious what talents you should take unless you want to gimp yourself. Also still stands if lets say I was fighting malkorok. As unholy I could go with 0 talents except t75 and 0 glyphs and preform well. I dont think any other class can do that, but I could be wrong.

4. Right. For blood having UH and FS runes turn into death runes is kinda pointless? You would spend it on death strike regardless. For that example it would make more sense for blood runes to turn into death runes since ironically they leasted valued for blood.

The way the system works is runic power is supposed to be a finisher esq move. However its oppsite in PvP in which the end goal is just to get death runes, not runic power, which is just a byproduct. Necrotic strike acts like a ability that tries to end the fight, something that thematically, fits runic power more.

5. Which is why having it effected by KM and SD would make up for this. Frost you would choose a big hit with FS or a "crit" (double absorb) NS, or as unholy you can choose the damage/healing of death coil or retain the rapid fire necrotic strike stacking playstyle that currently is in game. Only is it doesnt add DT stacks which could be solved or added.

8. I dont think strike modifer was really outdated I like it but its already intended to go, so the byprotduct is that 2 diseases are being left behind without interaction is outdated to me. (ASSUMING nothing changes). Because you actually used ghoul, regardless if it was a super large DPS cooldown or not as blood and frost on a regular basis.

The amount of times I've had to use blood presence as a DPS in PvE this entire expansion and even last expansion I can count on one hand. Same for blood presence and unholy/frost presence (asides from the 10% movement speed for coming back during wipes.)

9. Spit balling stuff but you get the idea here. Being balanced around AMS soaking is no good, and with the change it may be alright now so haste changing might not matter.

2. Want a example?
Druid. Only need tier60.
Rogue. Only need tier90

If you accept 2 rows that directly increase your damage, you get every class except for Hunter, Monk and Priest

And for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM there is always a best talent for any given situation. This is NOT an argument, since this is EXACTLY what the devs wanted to achive with this talent system.

4. Yes, that is pointless. Except this way blood gets the same amount of death runes as every other spec.
Also, I'd rather say that RP is a byproduct, and death runes are the goal.

5. Honestly, how is that different than currently? Either hit hard, or use NS.

8. But you actually use a second disease, doesn't matter if it's not a large damage increase. Also, then you would have one disease without any interaction. See that? Try arguments that can't be turned on you.

In the end, this point is totally subjective, and there will always be someone to whom your bloat is actually flavor, and whos bloat is your flavor.
What makes your opinion more valid than others?

I dont know any class that has more than 1 DoT without some sort of class synergy. Just a obvservation

*cough*boomkin*cough*
*cough*spriest*cough*
*cough*subtlety*cough*
*cough*feral*cough*
*cough*affliction*cough*
*cough*demonolgy*cough*

also, to some extent Survival hunters (serpent sting+black arrow)

[Challenge]

2. Want a example?
Druid. Only need tier60.
Rogue. Only need tier90

If you accept 2 rows that directly increase your damage, you get every class except for Hunter, Monk and Priest

And for EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM there is always a best talent for any given situation. This is NOT an argument, since this is EXACTLY what the devs wanted to achive with this talent system.

4. Yes, that is pointless. Except this way blood gets the same amount of death runes as every other spec.
Also, I'd rather say that RP is a byproduct, and death runes are the goal.

5. Honestly, how is that different than currently? Either hit hard, or use NS.

8. But you actually use a second disease, doesn't matter if it's not a large damage increase. Also, then you would have one disease without any interaction. See that? Try arguments that can't be turned on you.

In the end, this point is totally subjective, and there will always be someone to whom your bloat is actually flavor, and whos bloat is your flavor.
What makes your opinion more valid than others?



*cough*boomkins*cough*

2. What? Druids 60 and 90 talents both increase their damage, aswell as glyphs such as savage roar for the opener. Rogue 15 talents marginally help combat and assination and greatly helps sub in additon to 90. Aswell as again glyphs such as redirect, hemorrhaging veins, vendetta.

Not even including the usefulness of glyphs. All classes get damage in their 100 talents so wound count it. This is who has game changing damage effecting talents.

Druids have 2
Hunters have 3
Mages have 2
Monks have 3
Paladins have 2
Priest have 3
Rogues have (arguably the other class lacking this way.) 3. Although 75 only effects largely PvP, Make that 2. And 15 is minimal at best ass/combat and great for sub. But still there.
Shamans have 2
Warlocks have 2
Warriors have 2
Death knights have 1, which all preform exactly the same with no imporant DPS variance between the 3.


4. Death runes are just a little extra to add flexibility in your next move, aka a wild card. It all leads to using RP though as a "finisher" though

5. Because for unholy necrotic strike is valued higher than death coil. Not sure if intended but Im pretty sure RP costing abilities should want higher priority, as much as a PvP setting can have priority. Also atm for frost its not a option. Its hit hard or kill nothing. Having it separated from runes for frost at least still leaves obliterate for the hard hitting portion. It was alright in cata when you could howling blast spam and use all unholy runes on necrotic strike.

8. Again as I've said, how long until 2h frost doesnt give a crap about blood plague? Then its legitimate button bloat. ( Going from the already suggested WoD changes.

Also blood plague interacts with unholy mastery, and frost fever frost mastery. There is is some synergy with a singular disease. Nice try.

Not really subjective when anyone can observe the game's current state and see which abilities currently never/super rarely warrants a use and which abilities most likely woundnt in WoD even before a numbers pass.

*cough* boomkin mastery, and for PvP spaming moonfire/sunfire depending on eclipse says hi *cough*

[valliant13]

I totally agree. Diseases add nothing interesting to game play now, and Blizzard is making it even more mindless to keep them up in WoD. Why we NEED 2 pointless DoTs is beyond me.

And I wasn't responding to anyone in particular, just addressing how some seem to consider their own opinions as absolutes, and are unable to comprehend that others could ever disagree with them.

The dots arent pointless though. They are being buffed damage wise for both specs. So while yes there is no point to them for our strikes anymore I am going to say it's safe to assume they will do a decent amount of all specs damage in 6.0 and beyond.

[Deleted]

2. What? Druids 60 and 90 talents both increase their damage, aswell as glyphs such as savage roar for the opener. Rogue 15 talents marginally help combat and assination and greatly helps sub in additon to 90. Aswell as again glyphs such as redirect, hemorrhaging veins, vendetta.

4. Death runes are just a little extra to add flexibility in your next move, aka a wild card. It all leads to using RP though as a "finisher" though

5. Because for unholy necrotic strike is valued higher than death coil. Not sure if intended but Im pretty sure RP costing abilities should want higher priority, as much as a PvP setting can have priority. Also atm for frost its not a option. Its hit hard or kill nothing. Having it unserperated from runes for frost at least still leaves obliterate for the hard hitting portion. It was alright in cata when you could howling blast spam and use all unholy runes on necrotic strike.

8. Again as I've said, how long until 2h frost doesnt give a crap about blood plague? Then its legitimate button bloat. ( Going from the already suggested WoD changes.

Also blood plague interacts with unholy mastery, and frost fever frost mastery. There is is some synergy with a singular disease. Nice try.

Not really subjective when anyone can observe the game's current state and see which abilities currently never/super rarely warrants a use and which abilities most likely woundnt in WoD even before a numbers pass.

*cough* boomkin mastery, and for PvP spaming moonfire/sunfire depending on eclipse says hi *cough*

2. yes. yes they increase their damage. just like tier 75? and it's the only talent row that directly increases your damage? which you said was only the case for dks?
DA also marginally increases our dps, since it increases our uptime? glyph of regenerative magic also increases our damage?

Your point was that dks only need one talent row to perform well, which is also the case with and rogues?
missed druid tier 90 though.
ok so we're one of two classes that only have one direct damage increase. so what?

4. great flexibilty having only one option. Still don't see why having a choice where to spend RP is better then a choice where to spend deathrunes (since that is their purpose, as you've said)

5. So that's a problem with OB, not with NS

8. So, basically:
PS is a slight damage increase that doesn't interact with our mastery, so that should be scrapped, because ... our rotation is simple enough as it is?
Ghoul is a slight damage increase that doesn't interact with our mastery, so we should keep it, because ... You always use it together with PoF?

also "anyone can see what is bloat and what isn't": apparently not, else we wouldn't have this discussion.

anyone

so boomkin mastery, still 2 dots with no interaction to your rotation that you always have active on the target.
also, frost mastery? also increases frost fever damage? don't see your point

and what about all those other specs?

[Schizoide]

*cough*boomkin*cough*
*cough*spriest*cough*
*cough*subtlety*cough*
*cough*feral*cough*
*cough*affliction*cough*
*cough*demonolgy*cough*

also, to some extent Survival hunters (serpent sting+black arrow)

Not sure if you don't know what synergize means or if you just aren't familiar with other classes.

Balance
- Moonfire & Sunfire proc Shooting Stars, and duration is increased by Wrath/Starfire/Starsurge crits. Damage done is modified and snapshotted by Eclipse (which is retained in 6.0). Tons of synergy.

Shadow
- Devouring Plague synergizes with mastery, does damage based upon the number of Shadow Orbs, and heals the caster. Also synergizes with Solace & Insanity talent.
- SW:P synergizes with mastery and Divine Insight talent.
- Vampiric Touch synergizes with master and generates their resource.

Subtlety
- Garrote is buffed by mastery and grants 100% armor pen for 10s.
- Rupture causes you to deal 35% additional damage via Sanguinary Vein and is buffed by mastery.

Feral
- Rip is buffed by mastery, and synergizes with Shred, Ravage, and Mangle, increasing its duration.
- Thrash is buffed by mastery and also applies Weakened Blows.
- Rake is buffed by mastery. Will give you this one, mastery alone doesn't count. But Rip and Thrash do have synergizes and secondary effects that matter.

Affliction
- Unstable Affliction is buffed by mastery. Has a secondary anti-dispel PvP effect, and synergizes with Malefic Grasp and Haunt.
- Agony is buffed by mastery and synergizes with Malefic Grasp and Haunt.
- Corruption is buffed by mastery, procs Nightfall, and synergizes with Malefic Grasp and Haunt.

Demonology
- Hand of Gul'dan's Shadowflame generates Demonic Fury.
- Corruption generates Demonic Fury.
- Doom summons a Wild Imp on crits, which deals damage, generates Demonic Fury, and procs Molten Core.

Survival
- Black Arrow is buffed by mastery and procs Lock and Load
- Serpent Sting grants focus every tick via Viper Venom

Frost DK
- Blood Plague can be applied/leeched by L56 talents, and replaced by Necrotic Plague.
- Frost Fever is buffed by mastery. Can be applied/leeched by L56 talents, and replaced by Necrotic Plague.

Unholy DK
- Blood Plague is buffed by mastery, and can be extended via Festering Strike. Can be applied/leeched by L56 talents, and replaced by Necrotic Plague.
- Frost Fever can be extended via Festering Strike. Can be applied/leeched by L56 talents, and replaced by Necrotic Plague.

Blood DK
- Blood Plague is refreshed via Pestilence, and can proc Crimson Scourge. Can be applied/leeched by L56 talents, and replaced by Necrotic Plague.
- Frost Fever is refreshed via Pestilence. Can be applied/leeched by L56 talents, and replaced by Necrotic Plague.

My main response to 6.0 DK diseases is that there's no reason to have two. I expected one of them (Frost Fever, probably) to be pruned. Beyond that, they are affected by a couple of talents but don't synergize with anything else, generate resources, or change gameplay for Frost and Unholy (Festerblight requires Necrotic Plague in 6.0). Blood does synergize with Blood Plague and Crimson Scourge, but Frost Fever just does damage.