Are Bosses actually getting "better"?

[mercychan]

A year from now, maybe longer, we'll be looking back on MoP. I've seen a lot of claims that raiding has only been "getting better and better", but how true is this?

Looking back on this expansion and others, here are bosses I thought were great, good, and terrible:

MOP:

Well done: Elegon, Durumu, Lei Shen, Siegecrafter, Garrosh

Good: Vizier, Garalon, Sha of Fear, Ji-Kun, Sha of Pride, Thok

Bad: Stone Guard, Will of the Emperor, AmberShaper, Lei Shi, Horribledon, Tortos, Animus, Immerseus, Nazgrim, Paragons


Cata:

Well done: Ascendent Council, Atramedes, Sinestra, Al'akir, Nef 2.0, Alysrazor, Ragnaros 2.0

Good: Cho'gal, Zonozz, Hagara

Bad: Conclave, Chimeron, Slime Dude, Spine, Madness


Wrath:

Well done: Sarth 3D, Mimiron, Yogg 0, Putricide, Sinestra, Lich King, Halion

Good: Malygos, XT, Freya, Anub'arak, lootship (maybe), Algalon (much shiny, very space, wow)

Bad: lolnaxx2.0, big stone guy, faction champions,


I noticed that the number of bosses that I actually enjoyed hasn't really changed, even considering how few bosses Cataclysm had. In fact, there were so many bosses this expansion I thought were terrible; either the gimmick was a flop or it was too complex. (For me, gimmicks are either a hit or miss, and there were A LOT of gimmicks this expansion). Personally, I don't see the raids as "getting better", but the quality has mostly been stagnant.

So what do you guys think? Am i full of shit? I may be becoming sort of 'numb' to bosses now that I've raided for ~seven years. How would you rate the bosses this expansion?

What makes a set of raids 'good'? Is it the number of great bosses? Number of decent bosses? Would you, at this point, consider this expansion of raiding better than the rest? Let's hope for the best in tier 17

ITT: my opinion is better than your opinion

[Krazzorx]

This isn't a subject which can really be quantified. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer in the vast majority of cases.

[mercychan]

define: opinion

[Jackelyn]

MoP
Good: Siegecrafter - Lei Shen - Iron Juggernaut - Dark Shamans - Horridon - Dark Animus - Durumu - Elegon
Enjoyed: Spoils - Thok but not the best

Worst thing in MoP raid wise was Heart of Fear for me (mainly Garalon)

other than that I've had the most fun raid wise in years, last raid I enjoyed as much as Siege of Org was Hammerknell back in Rift... still probs the greatest raid I've ever finished whilst current

[moveth]

I completely disagree with these. The biggest being Animus which was, without a doubt, one of the most unique bosses we've ever encountered. I had a blast with it even though it was INCREDIBLY unforgiving.

[Krazzorx]

define: opinion

What you appear to be looking for is the answer to: "are bosses better or worse now than before"?

But there is no black and white answer to that where "better" translates to "more fun". People just prefer different things. Will of the Emperor is probably a top 3 boss for MoP for me but that doesn't say anything about its quality. It just means I like it.

[rhorle]

There seems to be a disconnect between your title and question you are posing and your reasoning. One talks about bosses being better then before and the other talks about your enjoyment factor of a boss. The two are not equal concepts when discussing bosses. As you don't have to enjoy a boss for it to have better mechanics and function then a previous boss.

[mercychan]

Yeah I'd consider a boss great if it had a lot of different elements that made the fight flow well. Durumu had a particularly cool gimmick with the color spectrum, and I thought the maze was a fresh and interesting mechanic, it also had a really tight DPS check on heroic.

Other fights I would consider 'good' if they stood out in my memory among most of the bland bosses

There seems to be a disconnect between your title and question you are posing and your reasoning. One talks about bosses being better then before and the other talks about your enjoyment factor of a boss. The two are not equal concepts when discussing bosses. As you don't have to enjoy a boss for it to have better mechanics and function then a previous boss.

I don't understand what you mean. If raid tiers were becoming better, you would expect to enjoy the bosses more, no? How is the OP not related to the title?

[Krazzorx]

Because entertainment value is subjective. Do you not see that in the responses of those who hate Durumu?

[mercychan]

Because entertainment value is subjective. Do you not see that in the responses of those who hate Durumu?

Yes, I do, which is the point of the thread, to discuss your opinion of how the list of 40-some bosses turned out, and maybe to compare it to your past raiding experiences. I would appreciate it if you would not attack the premise of the discussion, and instead just give your opinion on the raids, thanks.

[Pua]

I think the best boss of this expansion was Lei Shen, with Nefarian arguably the best of Cataclysm. In WotLK I thought Sartharion was the best (and the best single encounter in the game), while I thought Karazhan's Shade of Aran was exceptional for the small amount of content I got through.

The next step is to identify what made them good, see what's common, and then use that to objectively judge what makes a "good" boss... Which is easier said than done. Ultimately, I think all of these bosses were markedly short on gimmicks, with simply playing your class well being the major factor in your success. They were also largely short of horrible one-shot mechanics that cause wipes off the bat, which might also explain why I liked them.

Amazingly, Hazzikostas agrees with me about Lei Shen so hopefully that's the type of boss we'll see in the future. The less of Dark Animus we see, the better.

[Lynarii]

The reason people are questioning the premise is because 'better' and 'more enjoyable' do not equate. I can objectively look at a fight like Seigecrafter and say that it is a well done fight, but I still don't have a lot of fun with that fight. Whereas mechanically, Spoils is kinda a messy fight that can be broken in so many ways, really somewhat sloppy all around... but I somewhat look forward to it because I find it a nice pace change between Malkorok and Thok.

As far as overall raids go though, I think SoO is one of the best they've done from a standpoint of a reasonable progression curve, encounter variety, and few gimmicks that scream "This is a gimmick!" (like most of Firelands bosses). SoO may not contain any of my all-time favorite fights... but it also doesn't have any of the fights I truly despised. I feel similarly about Throne of Thunder. Both ToT and SoO (especially having them back to back) show a Blizzard raid team that is currently putting out fights that are consistently solid as compared to the WotLK team which I felt was far more hit or miss. WotLK had some great fights, but also had some downright awful ones.

[Bigbazz]

Ones that stood out

TBC : Vashj, Kael Thas
WOTLK : Yogg Saron, Mimiron, Lich King, Putricide HC, Anub'Arak HC, Faction Champs!
Cataclysm : Ragnaros, Hagara
MOP : Stone Guard HC (tho I hated it, genius!), Feng, Will of Emperor, Garrosh.


I look back most fondly on WOTLK and TBC, The Lich King is the best fight in my opinion and Ulduar was the best raid. I think the bosses may not be getting better, but I don't think they are getting worse either. The first few in SOO are nothing to be excited about, but I haven't done them on HC so maybe my opinion would change.

[Thelxi]

All pretty subjective.

Example: You put Durumu under "well done" and I hated that fight and its dumb mechanics. You put Chimaeron and Faction Champs under "bad" and I liked both of those fights. You put Atramedes under "well done" and I thought that was a pretty bland fight (and it was tuned horribly to boot, was a pushover even on heroic).

So on and so forth.

You have weird taste.

[Deleted]

i didnt much like t14. msv was okay, but i didnt like hof. toes was soso, decent setting but gimmicky bosses. started playing very late in this tier and never cleared heroic when it was current

looking back, tot had a lot of intresting bosses, many of which i like a lot. lei shen is probably the most well designed/intresting boss in the expansion together with blackfuse. the reason is they were made incredibly hard without putting in crazy gear checks (like garrosh)
my favourites in tot was jinrokh and jikun. and my least favourite was megaera

siege is the middleground for me. its up there with tot though because of the setting, which i liked, but i dont think many of the bosses are super fun. garrosh as an endboss is okay, and could be better. the waves of adds in p1 together with the very non-epic room its set in kind of killed my first impression, but the rest of the fight weighs up for it, with a pretty heroic last phase, similar to sha of fear.

favourite in siege is hard. most well designed is blackfuse
whats most fun doing for me personally norushen, sha of pride and juggeranut. probably because they're pretty simple without being a pudge. theres always joy in tunneling one target :d

least favs in siege is immerseus and spoils. immerseus isnt such a bad boss but its an annoying one. him going up and down all the time together with the very slow pace. annoying knockups and knockbacks etc.., stop dps due to stacks. lots of annoyances pretty much
spoils is unique but really its just glorified trash. wouldnt call spoils complex at all just very basic with some mobs to aoe while not blowing up the raid

edit: my favourites =//= most well designed

bosses are getting better designed, thats true. but cant compare that to which are favourites, because people like different things

id wanna see a poll for favourite bosses and a different poll for most well designed bosses. that feels like the core point of your thread

[Daetur]

Totally subjective. You're trying to answer a question using only your own personal measuring stick of "enjoyment," and that does not work to produce a meaningful analysis.
For example, I fundamentally disagree with a few of the bosses in their places on your list, as well as the omission of certain bosses from both the "bad" and the "good" lists- but which of us is right? The answer is "neither," because enjoyment is totally subjective and not at all meaningful to answer this question on such a small, anecdotal scale.

You also failed to include every boss, which further hurts the validity of your analysis, regardless of the extreme subjectivity.

[cFortyfive]

Don't know. Every addon had horrible encounters - same goes for this. At least there was a relatively decent number overall and I did enjoy the raidcontent for mop.

[Steampunk]

I feel that there's a continual trend of good boss fights and bad boss fights.

I can't say that it's improving in general... just a stable trend of a few good and a few fillers.

[Absolucion]

define: opinion

I agree wholeheartedly with mercylolk. Conclave was a brilliantly designed encounter. There's two kind of players, those who didn't beat Conclave heroic and those who have 150+ attempts on it and remember every single one of them.

[wych]

Some people are getting way too wound up over the opening post of this thread.

I think it's pretty clear the thread should be "are the bosses getting better?" and you post your own opinion on it.


Anyway, I think there's less iconic fights now, but there's on average more mechanics. I still find a lot of them fun, but not as epic as they used to be.