DPS Balance - Are Locks too OP?

[L3fty]

Hi

As the titles suggests, i'm interested in hearing your opinions on locks in their current state. More specifically destruction and affliction, as demo seems somewhat redundant compared to them atm.

Now my interest is not out of a burning hatred for the class, or jelly rage, but as a GM who was asked by our no1 DPS - a destruction warlock - just why I thought he was so far ahead of everyone else.

For me it is quite a strange one to answer. I don't want to tell everyone they are under performing and I don't want to feed his ego. What I am looking for is other raiders experience with warlocks in SoO, more exactly in Heroic modes.

To elaborate, it is almost a guarantee that on multi-target fights such as Galakras, and single target fights like Jugger, he is on top by atleast 75 / 100k DPS, and often ends up doing 1/3rd more total dmg than the guy at number 2. We typically have a Fire mage, WW monk, Unholy DK, Frost Mage, Survive Hunter. All pull at least an average 300k minimum, but the lock sits at atleast 450k, depending on the enocounter. The pack before Nazgrim saw some of the sickest AOE I have witnessed with him reaching around 2.5 mill dps.

For me this is quite a drastic gap. All the others DPS use addons such as ForteXorcist to track buffs, and try their best to optimize output, but it is seemingly impossible to get near the lock. I am quite puzzled as all of these are experienced guys that have been playing for years.

For me, it screams an imbalance, and also a stat weight issue. Mastery seems to be incredibly strong for locks, to the point where all our other DPS (no2 Fire Mage with huge crit etc) seem to be at a huge disadvantage. Even the Frost Mage who can get away with stacking Mastery is nowhere near this guy.

Sorry for the wall, I am as curious as the lock asking my why he was so far ahead. What have you seen in SoO HC?

[Deleted]

Yes, locks are hugely OP right now. That's basically it.

[Tavin]

On multi dot fights, no other class should be close to affli locks. Single target they are very strong, how ever so are other class such as feral/mages/rogues/hunters etc.

So yes, that is normal.

[Sonrisa]

Although locks are ahead, they aren't ahead by a 150k on boss fights in equal gear (except some of the Soul Swap abuse fights). Despite his class being OP as fuck, he is probably also a better player than the rest of your DPS.

[zephid]

Yes warlocks are insane right now. They are good on single target fights, they are good on multi-target fight and they have great raid utility.

[Deleted]

All pull at least an average 300k minimum, but the lock sits at atleast 450k

It is true that warlocks are in a very good position now, but there should not be a 33% difference. With the same item level, warlocks are not THAT much better. The only fight where they really pull ahead of everyone else by that much is protectors, if he's affliction. On Galakras, provided that they are not part of the tower team, your hunter and mage should not lag that much behind either. Maybe 10-20% below the lock, but not 1/3.
And on single target, he should only be slightly ahead, or even on the same level, depending on the fight. If your hunter can't easily top dps on Thok, kick him from the raid. Juggernaut is another fight that favors hunters and melee, because they can just sit on the boss while casters have to move from various aoe. Warlocks can still top dps on Juggernaut, but others SHOULD be very close to him.

[L3fty]

Yeah i'm in agreement he probably is better, whatever that really means...but the gap is just crazy imo. Surprised there are no more threads about it, seeing as in WoD locks are remaining relatively unchanged we are told.

Thanks for the feedback.

[Deleted]

Yes, Affli is too strong right now. On pure single target fights they can be stronger (e.g. Juggernaut 90th percentile or 40th percentile) than any other class. On Cleave-fights, they are even stronger (e.g. Protectors 90th / 40th percentile).

But, there are some points to consider: You have to get your interface right. Know which mob has which dots for how long. Know which trinket / other procs are up, and play reactively to that. This means, a good affli can do much much more damage than an average one, especially when it's more than only one target (as seen in the huge differences on protectors). And affli seems to pull even further ahead with better gear. For that reason, many play destro: They don't really do more damage as affli. And while destro is strong, too, it's not as OP as affli. E.g. look at the juggernaut numbers: double as much destros compared to afflis, though the second one does on average much more damage.

All in all that means for Blizzard: Affli is not generally OP, because the average PvE player (when he would play affli) - average player in wow is at max a flex raider - does not do more damage than others. So it's not really an immediate problem that afflis in hc guilds do much more damage than anyone else. But, they seem to want to fix this problem with the new dot mechanics in the addon.

But, looking at your numbers, the difference seems a bit too big for those dps numbers.

[Genju]

Yeah i'm in agreement he probably is better, whatever that really means...but the gap is just crazy imo. Surprised there are no more threads about it, seeing as in WoD locks are remaining relatively unchanged we are told.

Thanks for the feedback.

Because in this situation, its more the player and not the class.

Yes warlocks are very good, but more because of all their abilities combined with crazy survival and raid utility and pretty much no cons.
From a pure single target dmg prospective, especially mages but ill bet a few other specs like warriors/hunter/moonkin whatever can easily keep up with wl and/or beat them. In no world is a warlock 30% above everyone else just because he is a warlock. Because of that, there are no more threads. (talking about destro, affli is very rare because it needs garrosh heroic trinket to be rly good)

The only aspect in what warlocks are completly broken is aoe with Fire&Brimstone.

[L3fty]

30% was an extreme example, but the case remains that no matter the fight, noone can top the lock.

Perhaps this is just the natural swing of things, but to me it really feels like MoP has been locks > all. I am a resto shaman but I can see in our raids that some of the dps get frustrated with this level of supremacy. I know I would be annoyed.

Looking through HC vids on the youtubes, I can count the times I've seen a lock not number 1 on one hand.

Guess it's good for progress...

[kamuimac]

It is true that warlocks are in a very good position now, but there should not be a 33% difference. With the same item level, warlocks are not THAT much better. The only fight where they really pull ahead of everyone else by that much is protectors, if he's affliction. On Galakras, provided that they are not part of the tower team, your hunter and mage should not lag that much behind either. Maybe 10-20% below the lock, but not 1/3.
And on single target, he should only be slightly ahead, or even on the same level, depending on the fight. If your hunter can't easily top dps on Thok, kick him from the raid. Juggernaut is another fight that favors hunters and melee, because they can just sit on the boss while casters have to move from various aoe. Warlocks can still top dps on Juggernaut, but others SHOULD be very close to him.

dunno why u put so much focus into it hwen its clear - his lock is good and knwo how to play his class , rest is weaker then lock and thus the difference -

OP point them to dummies to practice their rotation for 3 hours and theyll do much better next week and problem solved.

also just cause locks are strong class doesnt mean all locks can pull out their potential - i have seen only 2-3 really good locks in 5.4, rest which i meet was clear fotm rerollers with next to no clue how to play their class average at best.

[mauserr]

Please... do you really think that 150k difference is being OP? It's just your people underperforming as hell.

and single target fights like Jugger, he is on top by atleast 75 / 100k DPS, and often ends up doing 1/3rd more total dmg than the guy at number 2

They are just bad, deal with it. Locks are a little bit stronger than others, but there are always classess who are better than the others, whether it's an arcane mage, a feral druid, combat rogue, enha shaman or a warlock.

If your people can not pull at least 360-3650k in 570+ gear, they're just bad. Not talking about UH dks or shadow priests, since these specs are just bad in general :P I was doing ~420k single target DPS(100% single target with nothing to pad the meters, such as malkorok slimes) with my rogue who was 578 and I'm by no means a rogue guru, I've played him only for about 4-5 months, so I had still quite a lot to learn when it was about min-maxing.

As Kamuimac said, the rest of your raid is heavily underperforming while your warlock knows how to play really well.

[The Kao]

Meh. Nobody cares if anything is OP currently. It may very well stay so as the content has long passed its best-before date and the next upcoming patch in terms of balance - 6.0 - will bring significant changes for the whole game anyway, including WLs. Quite futile to make a big deal out of it now.

[Varlak]

Yeah i'm in agreement he probably is better, whatever that really means...but the gap is just crazy imo. Surprised there are no more threads about it, seeing as in WoD locks are remaining relatively unchanged we are told.

Thanks for the feedback.

Blizzard already confirmed that current lock are overpowered and they don't want to nerf them because it would nerf guilds that use them (no joke). They said they will be tuned down in WoD.+

Also well just the change to snapdoting is a pretty big nerf to aff lock.

[Itisamuh]

The problem with nerfing their DPS, at least in the case of affliction, is that it would kill them in PvP, where their damage is already laughable.

[Deleted]

In 25H destruction is actually in-line with other specs, the only fights where it could be considered outliers are Immerseus, Galakras and Garrosh but even then not by much. Destructions dps comes down how big of a slice of the adds pie it gets (which is probably why it performs better in 10H where it often has the whole pie). I also don't get why people think destructions aoe is untouchable, ele shamans can compete with 3-4 adds and fury warriors can compete with short lived adds, even windwalkers can pull good numbers arcane is up there too and combat. Single target destruction is on the lower end of the top and multi target/cleave lots of other classes do similar/better numbers.

Affliction in a good 25H guild is op as fuck along with warlocks passive survivability (don't get why people think warlocks utility is so good healthstones/portal strike me as meh, shadowfury is good though).

[weedburst]

blizzard has already said that locks are too strong right now and it's an issue, but the problem with nerfing them right now is that it would nerf entire raid groups. when blizzard publicly states that nerfing a single class would ruin entire raids you know there is a problem. nothing we can do except wait for warlords to get them balanced correctly.

- - - Updated - - -

The problem with nerfing their DPS, at least in the case of affliction, is that it would kill them in PvP, where their damage is already laughable.

top tier affliction warlocks will pull 40k sustained dps in a 3's... which is higher than any other class in the game. you or whoever you are playing with isn't very good at affliction.

[Deleted]

The problem with nerfing their DPS, at least in the case of affliction, is that it would kill them in PvP, where their damage is already laughable.

I don't think ive ever seen a 3v3 where an affliction warlock wasn't on top of damage done at the end of the match, so that's not entirely accurate.

[Raiju]

30% was an extreme example, but the case remains that no matter the fight, noone can top the lock.

Yes, that is why warlocks are OP. They dominate nearly every fight since they don't have disadvantages dps-wise really (other than thok, I guess. The only ones not affected there are hunters though)

Perhaps this is just the natural swing of things, but to me it really feels like MoP has been locks > all. I am a resto shaman but I can see in our raids that some of the dps get frustrated with this level of supremacy. I know I would be annoyed.

Yes it has been annoying. It sorta sucks how a warlock can beat you be a marginal % and you know moreso than if you play better or had 1 piece better gear, if he was playing another class would be the biggest difference in dps. It's gotten to the point where people joke about replacing everyone with warlocks for over a year now.

Looking through HC vids on the youtubes, I can count the times I've seen a lock not number 1 on one hand.

Guess it's good for progress...

Yep.

[Basemath]

I'll provide you with a Celestalon quote, which should be more reliable than any "yes they're OP" answer you get.

This was in answer to the question "Dear Cele, never gets old, but why be any other dps when you can be warlock? And why did you guys stop game balance hotfixing?"

There's a huge conversation to be had about *when* to nerf. Short answer is that nerfing warlocks would also nerf *guilds*. (Celestalon)
Instead, we think the right call is to leave them until Warlords, then fix them there. We agree that they're too strong now (Celestalon)