KJC change in WoD Alpha test

[Nighthaven-]

The joke about Mannoroth's Fury is how it affects Demonology and Destruction differently. That particular talent balancing happens with what spec they cared for last.
Non passive increment of radius for Hand of Gul'dan is terrible for Demonology (even if HoG doesn't receive any damage bonus), while passive effect for Destruction AoE is just OP.

And basically what you said about Cataclysm. I doubt the 'idea' of current 100-talents gets replaced completely.

[Gihelle]

I'm sure that in a raid environment with 5-10 targets, you literally could not spend the embers fast enough.

I must be missing something, RoF is already that way in a 5-10 target environment right now.

I'm pretty sure the nerf happened due to how much you could cheese fights like Horridon, Tortos and Durumu (being able to do AoE damage to almost ALL walls was insane)

[Soulzar]

I must be missing something, RoF is already that way in a 5-10 target environment right now.

I'm pretty sure the nerf happened due to how much you could cheese fights like Horridon, Tortos and Durumu (being able to do AoE damage to almost ALL walls was insane)

Ahhh Primordius!.... my buddy! MF heaven

[xuros]

Ahhh Primordius!.... my buddy! MF heaven

HAHAHA I did the same thing on that fight. Endless embers. It was a Chaos bolt fest.

[Brusalk]

HAHAHA I did the same thing on that fight. Endless embers. It was a Chaos bolt fest.

Quite possibly the funnest fight and most rewarding for being Destro.

That fight basically felt like it was designed to make Destro shine.

[Deleted]

The joke about Mannoroth's Fury is how it affects Demonology and Destruction differently. That particular talent balancing happens with what spec they cared for last.
Non passive increment of radius for Hand of Gul'dan is terrible for Demonology (even if HoG doesn't receive any damage bonus), while passive effect for Destruction AoE is just OP.

And basically what you said about Cataclysm. I doubt the 'idea' of current 100-talents gets replaced completely.

well they could just make MF into something like the old death knight talent that caused their dots to do aoe dmg on a crit or something and then adjust their aoe dmg accordingly, for example the aoe dmg from each of the afflic dots would be lowers say 5% of their tick's dmg, where immolate would do 10-15% of it's tick's dmg as aoe and demo's corr would deal like 25-30% of their tick's dmg as aoe each time MF would proc.

[Deleted]

well they could just make MF into something like the old death knight talent that caused their dots to do aoe dmg on a crit or something and then adjust their aoe dmg accordingly, for example the aoe dmg from each of the afflic dots would be lowers say 5% of their tick's dmg, where immolate would do 10-15% of it's tick's dmg as aoe and demo's corr would deal like 25-30% of their tick's dmg as aoe each time MF would proc.

That doesn't sound particularly balanced to me - affliction doesn't benefit from crit much and requires a fair few GCDs to dot everything since SB:SOC only applies corruption, meanwhile destruction can get all of it's benefit off with one cast and it likes crit a fair bit more than affliction - considering destruction is already king of AOE I doubt it needs propping up more, as dumb as I feel talking about numbers in regards to WOD.

I'd much rather they just revisited that entire tier of talents from the ground up rather than changing a different talent every few months - the problem is they lack a cohesive design, taking balance potshots every now and then in the hope that they magically line up in balance just isn't going to work without the talents either being useless like MF / future KJC or boring like AD / current KJC.
They had a go and stuck with it for a year, but there comes a point where I think it makes sense to say something just didn't work out, and I think that talent row is at that point.

[Deleted]

not that mad of the change. they could lower the cd to 1 min and 30 sec or 1 min and 45 sec. and make teh duration 1-2 sec longer.

[Deleted]

That doesn't sound particularly balanced to me - affliction doesn't benefit from crit much and requires a fair few GCDs to dot everything since SB:SOC only applies corruption, meanwhile destruction can get all of it's benefit off with one cast and it likes crit a fair bit more than affliction - considering destruction is already king of AOE I doubt it needs propping up more, as dumb as I feel talking about numbers in regards to WOD.

I'd much rather they just revisited that entire tier of talents from the ground up rather than changing a different talent every few months - the problem is they lack a cohesive design, taking balance potshots every now and then in the hope that they magically line up in balance just isn't going to work without the talents either being useless like MF / future KJC or boring like AD / current KJC.
They had a go and stuck with it for a year, but there comes a point where I think it makes sense to say something just didn't work out, and I think that talent row is at that point.

well they could easily balance its dmg based on the amount of dots and how easily they can be applied or make it so that the dots proc only after you use the cd so you dont need to apply the dots while the cd is up, they could easily use this talent to balance out the differences in aoe between specs, so thats afflic would get more dmg out of it than say destro.

[Milocow]

ok give felflame back to warlocks

[Jessicka]

well they could easily balance its dmg based on the amount of dots and how easily they can be applied or make it so that the dots proc only after you use the cd so you dont need to apply the dots while the cd is up, they could easily use this talent to balance out the differences in aoe between specs, so thats afflic would get more dmg out of it than say destro.

Could also produce additional ticks for %damage like Malefic Grasp. Not sure I actually like the idea, but I certainly feel different function for different specs would be the way to go for this talent as it stands, if it were to remain an AoE DPS cooldown; something I feel is more generally superfluous for our toolkit. Right now, I just feel like MF just epitomises everything the complaintents of button bloat say is wrong with abilities; other than that it is supposedly optional.

[Deleted]

It's going to be hilarious when everyone laughing at destro's movement realises that this means they are going to get all the bitch jobs whilst their destro is told to turret.

Depends. You got 2 more specs to work with. Same with Mage, and a spec like Shadow has a lot of flexibility from their talent tree.

Looking at talent trees you could compare KJC + Destro with Arcane + Ring + Ice Floes. KJC allows for uninterrupted work for a longer duration, while Arcane has more liberty within their ring and with Ice Floes would lose no DPS. So where Arcane will do fine on light movement, but be punished on big, Destro will lose some on light movement, and will be punished on big. However SimCraft showed no huge DPS loss for Destruction on light movement.

I'm also already used to the excuse / explanation from Arcane. Arcane can easily swap to Frost tho (not Fire), and Warlock can currently pretty easily switch to all other specs.

Female lich is a bad example. That is annoying for almost every spec. Just a matter of dispelling (its a Curse) or with similar mechanics using silly spells to get rid of the debuff (3rd boss in SPM). For the fight I would suggest, become friends with the Mage.

[Nighthaven-]

Depends. You got 2 more specs to work with. Same with Mage, and a spec like Shadow has a lot of flexibility from their talent tree.

Looking at talent trees you could compare KJC + Destro with Arcane + Ring + Ice Floes. KJC allows for uninterrupted work for a longer duration, while Arcane has more liberty within their ring and with Ice Floes would lose no DPS. So where Arcane will do fine on light movement, but be punished on big, Destro will lose some on light movement, and will be punished on big. However SimCraft showed no huge DPS loss for Destruction on light movement.

I'm also already used to the excuse / explanation from Arcane. Arcane can easily swap to Frost tho (not Fire), and Warlock can currently pretty easily switch to all other specs.

Female lich is a bad example. That is annoying for almost every spec. Just a matter of dispelling (its a Curse) or with similar mechanics using silly spells to get rid of the debuff (3rd boss in SPM). For the fight I would suggest, become friends with the Mage.

"As you're a priest, it doesn't matter if Shadow is uncompetitive on movement as you can heal"

[Deleted]

"As you're a priest, it doesn't matter if Shadow is uncompetitive on movement as you can heal"

What an utterly stupid remark. Yeah guise lets have the Shadow go Disc, who cares about our raid DPS. A Warlock switching spec is similar versatility as Shadow. A Mage as well (if Arcane <-> Frost since Fire has a completely different stat weight).

Shadow has a talent tree which provides the versatility to the spec, I explained that to you at least 5 times now. In this talent tree, Mindbender and SoD are good for movement, but S&I isn't (for heavy movement, like Lei Shen P3 on HC). The reason Shadow is low as it is, is purely tuning; not mechanics. It is tuned around its off healing (and I suspect due to popularity of spec, too, but that's a can of worms for discussion).

For Priest, the following is true:

"As long as one of the two Priest healing specs tops the meters in roughly every encounter, Priest healing is in a more than average state."

With more than average being an obvious understatement. This is because the Priest healer will pick the best spec, apparently a concept lost in the voids for Warlock community here.

Just sucks its Disc 3 major patches in a row. Boring for those who prefer Holy Priests. Yet I am not at all proposing Destruction is going to be the worst Warlock spec for entire next expansion.

For Priest healing I expect next expansion Holy will shine, and Disc will return to being a niche spec which can be important on certain fights.

Your statement is as weak as

"Marksmanship brings down the average Hunter DPS, making it weak."

If MM was worst, SV average, and BM best and all 3 are together average in your twisted pure heaven world we could use this reasoning of yours to say Hunter is average while in raids they clearly are not because every half serious Hunter would play BM. Where it goes sour is in the notion MM has been pretty much terrible for 3 major patches. For those who love MM, that sucks. But that doesn't make it a compelling argument to say Hunter is a weak class because they got 2 other specs to work with.

[Nighthaven-]

-gibberish-

WoD:
"Destruction deals inferior dps when it has to move but doesn't have the stationary-bonus-output of Arcane (as it requires the steadily generated resources during movement for stationary output) when it has the chance to cast again - This is 'fine' because you have two other Warlock specs"

LOL


How about:
"It doesn't matter if holy has bad HPS, because DISC is great." = "It doesn't mater if Priests have bad healing output because Restoration is great"


What you're saying:
"Pure classes doesn't need more than 1 working dps spec"

To make it fair:
"We should give Priests healer specs only as we couldn't care about the other two specs so long as they have same role alternatives."

- Why should hybrids have more 'working' specs? Just because they're hybrids?

[Deleted]

[...]

You misquoting what I say, calling it gibberish is itself a non sequitur. I won't lower myself to your low level of immature debate.

"Destruction deals inferior dps when it has to move but doesn't have the stationary-bonus-output of Arcane (as it requires the steadily generated resources during movement for stationary output) when it has the chance to cast again - This is 'fine' because you have two other Warlock specs"

I established Destruction seems to be doing alright on light movement. Most fights are about light movement. I used the tools available to everyone else: SimCraft without Fel Flame and picking AV. The result seemed to be about 1% DPS loss. All my results are public, but of course you got nothing to say about that cause it doesn't suit your carebear agenda. I also gave examples of how you can do useful things on the move, including DPS. Some is situational, some is permanent and requires no skill apart from pet management. A few fights contain some heavy movement phases or are completely about heavy movement. Those fights, the Warlock might have to pick a spec other than Destruction, the Mage might have to pick a spec other than Arcane, and the Shadow Priest might have to pick a talent tree other than Shadow & Insanity. I know that is difficulty to get in that head of yours, cause it has been explained to you 6 times now.

How about:
"It doesn't matter if holy has bad HPS, because DISC is great." = "It doesn't mater if Priests have bad healing output because Restoration is great"

Doesn't follow. The first statement is more or less true, apart from the fact it sucks if your spec isn't viable for 3 times in a row. If you love Demonology and you cannot play it for an entire expansion because it is never good on any fight, it sucks, I admit that, and I have always maintained that stance on the forums here.

Your second statement's equiv is saying "well no Warlock spec is currently good, but that is OK, since you can always reroll Hunter or Mage". Nowhere did I make an equiv statement like any of those though. What I am saying its totally OK if one of the three Warlock specs isn't good for heavy movement which is a niche.

What you're saying:
"Pure classes doesn't need more than 1 working dps spec"

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying you can quote and read although you've proven with your previous post you lack the ability to both quote and read.

I will repeat what I wrote above: What I am saying its totally OK if one of the three Warlock specs isn't good for heavy movement. How that means the same to you as Warlocks should only have 1 viable spec is beyond my comprehension.

To make it fair:
"We should give Priests healer specs only as we couldn't care about the other two specs so long as they have same role alternatives."

Nah rather "we make Disc bad for heavy movement, Holy good."

Shadow's versatility lies in the talent tree, I explained that 6 times to you now, explaining how T3 and T5 works (T6 also adds to it, and the reason we are balanced lower). T7 will also to the toolkit, enriching the available choices once more.

- Why should hybrids have more 'working' specs? Just because they're hybrids?

Because you cannot swap your role easy in Mythic raiding from tank to DPS, while switching DPS specs makes much more sense. They often don't have 3 working specs (certainly not like Warlock has it). Pala and DK for example have been rather lackluster with all their specs this expansion with very little notable high points.

[Nighthaven-]

You misquoting what I say, calling it gibberish is itself a non sequitur. I won't lower myself to your low level of immature debate.

I wouldn't lower myself to your level of logical thinking to make your arguments work.

I established Destruction seems to be doing alright on light movement. Most fights are about light movement. I used the tools available to everyone else: SimCraft without Fel Flame and picking AV. The result seemed to be about 1% DPS loss. All my results are public, but of course you got nothing to say about that cause it doesn't suit your carebear agenda. I also gave examples of how you can do useful things on the move, including DPS. Some is situational, some is permanent and requires no skill apart from pet management. A few fights contain some heavy movement phases or are completely about heavy movement. Those fights, the Warlock might have to pick a spec other than Destruction, the Mage might have to pick a spec other than Arcane, and the Shadow Priest might have to pick a talent tree other than Shadow & Insanity. I know that is difficulty to get in that head of yours, cause it has been explained to you 6 times now.

Really? So if we replaced Shadow with Arcane, how would you argue for this then? "Just go healing!"
Accept it whether or not you can get it into your tiny shell: the secondary stat flexibility is not there equally for dps.

Just switch talents... right. Fel Flame is not the equivalent of a flavor talent no matter how much you would like to believe it is. It is bread and butter for every Warlock spec, it's not damage - it is resource generation.

It is a core Warlock ability that is not there, and the current KJC doesn't does even remotely solve movement impairment without Fel Flame to a tiny degree.

What you lack brain capacity to understand: Warlock does not have DAMAGE-PROCS on the move and Fel Flame doesn't deal any significant damage, it generates resources for our slowly filled large resource-pool.

And because we're tuned around that slow but steady resource-generation, we do not have boosted stationary-output as direct damage as other classes which they have on demand/ quick.

Stop insisting that Destruction has the same ramp up time for burst without resources/ embers than eg. Arcane.
Stop insisting that Fel Flame is direct damage on the move and the equivalent of damage procs.
Stop insisting that the current KJC solves this issue.

Doesn't follow. The first statement is more or less true, apart from the fact it sucks if your spec isn't viable for 3 times in a row. If you love Demonology and you cannot play it for an entire expansion because it is never good on any fight, it sucks, I admit that, and I have always maintained that stance on the forums here.

Put simply,
if that is faulty design for classes that do not have choices, it is equally faulty for Pure classes as they are neither meant to 'find something else to do' even if they can just switch spec and do their role regardless.

Your second statement's equiv is saying "well no Warlock spec is currently good, but that is OK, since you can always reroll Hunter or Mage". Nowhere did I make an equiv statement like any of those though. What I am saying its totally OK if one of the three Warlock specs isn't good for heavy movement which is a niche.

If supposedly healer classes had only healing specs, I would find this agreeable in a nut-shell because then it would be fair. You don't receive: "I need three working specs in each different role under any circumstance as I don't have a choice as a hybrid"

No, that is not what I am saying. What I am saying you can quote and read although you've proven with your previous post you lack the ability to both quote and read.

I will repeat what I wrote above: What I am saying its totally OK if one of the three Warlock specs isn't good for heavy movement. How that means the same to you as Warlocks should only have 1 viable spec is beyond my comprehension.

That is what you're implying. Tell me what you are actually arguing for/ against in a simple line and I'll happy to tell you that your parallel comparison is shit again.

Nah rather "we make Disc bad for heavy movement, Holy good."

If you think this is good design because you're fortunate to have a choice, then you're stupid.

Shadow's versatility lies in the talent tree, I explained that 6 times to you now, explaining how T3 and T5 works (T6 also adds to it, and the reason we are balanced lower). T7 will also to the toolkit, enriching the available choices once more.

Those talents do not equalize the current KJC and Fel Flame removal as a work-around.

Because you cannot swap your role easy in Mythic raiding from tank to DPS, while switching DPS specs makes much more sense. They often don't have 3 working specs (certainly not like Warlock has it). Pala and DK for example have been rather lackluster with all their specs this expansion with very little notable high points.

You're a great game designer. Not influenced by hysterical screams of 'unfair warlock op nerf nerf remove the same abilities now although I have no clue what role they serve' without thought.


Infracted for Flaming. Implying someone is stupid by saying they lack brain capacity is uncalled for. Post more civilly next time.

[Deleted]

I will repeat what I wrote above: What I am saying its totally OK if one of the three Warlock specs isn't good for heavy movement. How that means the same to you as Warlocks should only have 1 viable spec is beyond my comprehension.

The problem being it's not really "OK" if one of the specs is garbage on heavy movement, it's less bad than if a hybrid is, but it's certainly not good.
By that logic it seems to suggest that a hybrid should be capable of performing well on every fight, at which point you're getting to the complete opposite of the hybrid tax - why take a pure if a hybrid's one spec is capable of performing on every fight + has the versatility of multiple roles?

It might be okay if pure specs had identical gearing / stat weights - you may not even have that spec available if your classes specialities are spread over 3 different specs at which point you need to hearth, respec, reforge etc before a fight - I don't think that's "OK" anymore, and even then you'd have people who simply do not want to play that spec.

I think it's fine if one spec is specialised more towards one role than another, but you shouldn't have a spec that is just complete and utter garbage in a scenario, which destro looks like it's shaping up to be.

And that's without touching pvp concerns, where afflictions ability to spread pressure hardly makes up for it's complete lack of killing power, and no mobility will kill destro in pvp even harder than pve.

[a C e]

The only way to fix warlock movement issues and mobility is to create three separate effects within one talent, blizzards solutions for this talent have always been benfitting one spec over the other.

I dont think its worth it to pick alpha KJC over AD as Demo or Affliction, no one would give up an entire darksoul for 10 seconds of Drain life or haunts ( <1.5 sec cast spell), unless that fight requires intensive movement which still makes the new KJC seem bad although better than other choices.

Affliction already has only 2 talents, I have never had a need to use MF as affliction since Elegon......................

[Dnusha]

Remove KjC. Bring back ff.
Bake in MF into Infernal. (more spells, less dmg)
Rebalance lvl 90 talents around AD and 2 new talents.