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  1. #641
    That's true. That's why -- in response to the changes made to Warlocks and other casters going into WoD -- I'm more concerned about fun factor and utility than our performance.

    I'm sure we'll be fine on meters no matter what, but I am concerned about high mobility fights becoming boring. One can say there's no skill in casting on the move, but there sure as shit ain't a lot of skill in empty globals...and learning how to minimize movement is DPS 101 stuff.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulzar View Post
    I find it funny that Locks are always used as the example of being OP for having a talent like KJC, when ELE shamans currently have 5.4 KJC and 6.0 KJC baseline...

    F&B Inncinerate is the only difference...
    Maybe because Ele Sham is pretty shit right now? They provide some great cleave, and some off healing and utility, but one of the worst single target (you need to go Enhance for that). Ele's damage on the move is getting nerfed and Blizzard commented Warlock and Elemental were going to get hit the most hard on the damage on the move. No more Lightning Bolt on the move. No glyph for it either. And yet the Ele Sham community (IIRC it was an Elemenal Shaman from Temerity) did some preliminary theorycrafting, noting it wasn't a huge DPS loss.

    Strangely I don't see the Warlock community calculate their DPS loss at all ...
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  3. #643
    Mechagnome Crisius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post

    Strangely I don't see the Warlock community calculate their DPS loss at all ...
    Whipped together a heavy movement sim without fel flame, 25k iterations. Then a patchwerk.

    Last edited by Crisius; 2014-06-06 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Cropped image

  4. #644
    Are there simulations without Snapshotting?
    - "I throw away all the rules of acceptable conduct during battle; near the ruptures I throw away all the accepted ideas of how the natural world is supposed to behave. Targeting isn’t even a consideration - I will be engaging my enemy at arm’s length."

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Maybe because Ele Sham is pretty shit right now? They provide some great cleave, and some off healing and utility, but one of the worst single target (you need to go Enhance for that). Ele's damage on the move is getting nerfed and Blizzard commented Warlock and Elemental were going to get hit the most hard on the damage on the move. No more Lightning Bolt on the move. No glyph for it either. And yet the Ele Sham community (IIRC it was an Elemenal Shaman from Temerity) did some preliminary theorycrafting, noting it wasn't a huge DPS loss.

    Strangely I don't see the Warlock community calculate their DPS loss at all ...
    My comment had nothing to do with DPS or the state of Shaman DPS. Just simply noting that when people talk about Casters casting while moving, KJC and Warlocks are always the example used to say Casting while moving is OP which I found interesting given that outside being able to AoE trash on the move, Shaman have the better "cast while moving" toolkit.

    Obviously, I know its due to people hating our position on the DMG meters, which is not the result of KJC.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Soulzar View Post
    My comment had nothing to do with DPS or the state of Shaman DPS.
    Yeah, it does.

    Lets play a quiz.

    A) Warlock movement
    B) Elemental movement
    C) Warlock DPS
    D) ???

    Now you may guess variable D in this comparison.

    Shaman have the better "cast while moving" toolkit.
    Celestalon said in the Finalboss interview (which was quoted on MMOC frontpage) Warlock and Elemental were going to get the biggest nerf on their movement DPS. Not sure what he or you thinks is #1 or #2 right now; both get nerfed hardest, that is what matters.

    Obviously, I know its due to people hating our position on the DMG meters, which is not the result of KJC.
    Hating theory is pure speculation and lacks proof, numbers & statistics, and more important its a red herring ie. irrelevant.

    If your damage is too high, its easy to nerf, so if its not fixed between patches I assume it is deliberate.

    UVLS being nerfed for Warlock, yet RoO not for Feral, gives us a peak in how Blizzard addressed mid tier the issue of Warlock DPS in SoO because they don't like to nerf specs mid tier. At all. So it was considered severe enough, unlike say Discipline as it is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthaven- View Post
    Really? So if we replaced Shadow with Arcane, how would you argue for this then? "Just go healing!"
    The way we done it is we replaced healer with a SP to push the DPS while still providing off healing. Just go Disc is an option a lot of 10 man SPs had to go for throughout MoP (not the least at the expense of other healers, opening up the spot for OP clothies). When I had to do this, I just quit the game, because I don't like healing that much to play it 9 or 12 hours a week and I find Disc in particular incredibly boring. YMMV.

    Arcane Mage could easily go Frost with Mastery build right now. Else, fix haste caps, akin to Destruction <-> Affliction. Fire is the outlier, Fire going from UP to OP due to scaling might be fixed with Multistrike secondary stat + less gems available. Arcane loses NT's GCD multidot, lowering their damage on the move. Finally, pures do get a little bit of flexibility from their talent tree. That together with their 3 specs will almost always mean they're overall better than a hybrid's DPS specs. Which is fair enough and yet the difference should not be huge (MoP cloth comparisons).

    I get you say casuals don't care about that, cause if the casual likes to play Destruction he's gonna play Destruction. Fair enough, but you can't have it both ways. Don't come with this bullshit the casual cares about their DPS because no, in this very case they don't. They're refusing an available option for them to do more damage. The rest of the world will take the best option available, and if you neglect the other pure specs, then pures have always a major advantage over hybrids. I don't think that is how stuff is being designed or tuned. I'd like to add its good if the best spec of a pure alternatives, to provide people who love one spec a patch to shine in.

    Accept it whether or not you can get it into your tiny shell: the secondary stat flexibility is not there equally for dps.
    I know Warlocks had to gem and enchant for Affliction in Firelands, and then on Raggy had to gem and enchant completely different for Demonology. Such extreme cases aren't there right now for Warlocks, best secondary stat being Mastery. From what I've gathered, Blizzard wants at least all secondary stats to be useful for every spec meaning haste for Warriors, crit for Frost Mages. As such there is evidence which suggests Blizzard regards such as an issue, one to fix, albeit not of major importance. It surely took them time.

    Just switch talents... right. Fel Flame is not the equivalent of a flavor talent no matter how much you would like to believe it is. It is bread and butter for every Warlock spec, it's not damage - it is resource generation.
    I thought you had issues with FF being removed for Destruction. I thought you were talking about resource generation for Destruction. Now you're talking about entire Warlock spec.

    It is a core Warlock ability that is not there, and the current KJC doesn't does even remotely solve movement impairment without Fel Flame to a tiny degree.
    I am not so sure about that, I think the choice between an extra Dark Soul versus temporary 100% of your stationary damage on the move is rather compelling on movement heavy fights where the DPS matters during movement. Take Siegecrafter for example. On wave #8 you could use KJC and move backwards at the same time. If you can turret (later on farm, most likely, or with a lot of CC) you can just stick with AV. However it doesn't make it a strong talent choice by default, and you need to time it. Since movement heavy fights are a niche, most fights are light movement which is where Destruction isn't affected much by this change.

    What you lack brain capacity to understand: Warlock does not have DAMAGE-PROCS on the move
    Wait, now you're again talking about Warlock in general. Nightfall should work fine on light movement, and Shadowburn & Havoc offer resource generation on the move albeit situational it can aligned with procs (if those occur on move). Ignoring Shadowburn and Havoc for a moment, procs on heavy movement without KJC are problematic for Destruction either way (with or without Fel Flame).

    and Fel Flame doesn't deal any significant damage, it generates resources for our slowly filled large resource-pool.

    And because we're tuned around that slow but steady resource-generation, we do not have boosted stationary-output as direct damage as other classes which they have on demand/ quick.
    What do you mean? On heavy movement, Arcane loses its RoP and Ice Floes can only do so much. They might even have to use ABr before heavy movement cause of otherwise stacks dropping off. WoD Destruction keeps its resources. It does not generate more, but it also does not lose them. If you need those resources right after the heavy movement, you pool it, a luxury Arcane doesn't have apart from its burst CDs. Arcane would need to rebuild its RoP and rebuild its resources after heavy movement. And Arcane doesn't have a pet, loses its multidot on GCD.

    Stop insisting that Destruction has the same ramp up time for burst without resources/ embers than eg. Arcane.
    I never said this, I said Arcane suffers from heavy movement.

    Stop insisting that Fel Flame is direct damage on the move and the equivalent of damage procs.
    I never said this either. Simming takes into account the mechanic of Fel Flame. My simming suggests a very minor DPS loss for Destruction, and rather strange DPS gain on heavy movement. The results are public, well documented, and should be reproducible [you should see a similar trend with your Warlock, as I also simmed Brusalk's to verify), and I welcome feedback. Amount of feedback received thus far: Zero. None. Nada.

    By all means scoff it off if you want, but the level you're at is theorycrafting before tuning pass.

    Stop insisting that the current KJC solves this issue.
    Current as in live or WoD? Commented on WoD's KJC above.

    Put simply,
    if that is faulty design for classes that do not have choices, it is equally faulty for Pure classes as they are neither meant to 'find something else to do' even if they can just switch spec and do their role regardless.
    Who are you kidding, are you being realistic here? Not at all! If you use Power Infusion as Shadow you're doing it wrong in almost every situation. If you want to insist on using that you shall suffer the consequences. If you insist on using MF as Affliction, again that is your choice. If you don't want to play Demonology on Ragnaros HC progression not only is this your choice. If you played Destruction on Lei Shen HC progression you were doing it wrong, too. In every case it isn't only your loss, its your team's loss as well. I played with people who refused to swap spec in the past most notably a Fire Mage who refused to go Arcane on Spine. When facing the most difficult content this attitude won't get you very far whereas for almost all other content and the vast majority of the playerbase, gear can and will make up for the suboptimal choice. The result is the heavy movement issue for Destruction -which is already a niche- is even more a niche due to how the playerbase plays the game and the situations where it does matter the player is expected to adapt. This adapting does not require a reroll!

    If supposedly healer classes had only healing specs, I would find this agreeable in a nut-shell because then it would be fair. You don't receive: "I need three working specs in each different role under any circumstance as I don't have a choice as a hybrid"
    You do have choices as a hybrid -at least as Shadow- because the flexibility lies within the talent tree. Pures flexibility lies within having 3 different specs, playstyles, in addition to talent tree choices.


    That is what you're implying. Tell me what you are actually arguing for/ against in a simple line and I'll happy to tell you that your parallel comparison is shit again.
    My stance has not only been consistent, its a stance I developed over a longer period of time, and used last when comparing all DPS specs' performance and scaling in tier 14 after finding out Holy did more damage than Shadow in Heart of Fear. To my surprise I found Shadow scaling at 90% of the median, and Warlock/Mage at 115% to 118% of the median. Of course I picked the best Priest talents, as well as the best Warlock and Mage specs and talents. This is what every bleeding edge raider does, so why bother about specs which perform subpar? And if you do, why bother complaining about a niche (heavy movement)? Its like me complaining SWI isn't good for heavy movement. No shit, if it were, everyone would always take it and its already the default choice as it is.

    If you think this is good design because you're fortunate to have a choice, then you're stupid.
    Ah, then I'm stupid, OK thank you for mentioning this, the lack of logical fallacies totally convinced me

    Healing during movement isn't always important (currently, arguably it is), and also nerfed in WoD.

    Those talents do not equalize the current KJC and Fel Flame removal as a work-around.
    Yes, as a matter of fact they do. DI and SoD (FDCL) allow instant damage on the move but this means no Mindbender (excellent when you lack GCDs) or SWI (the best when you need single target burst and can turret, unless Council fight where FDCL is better). PI isn't good unless you do short burst, like maybe on the legendary cloak boss if you overgear it. DI is movement friendly, except you need to turret for SWI, and you lose the option for ToF which is an execute and multidot mechanic you can game. So if you want to go for more movement, this almost always comes with the price of ditching the better option.

    Your tools are T5 (GoSup), T6 (KJC), and other specs and the entire Warlock community is waiting for your numbercrunching on why Destruction wouldn't be viable. Instead of arguing here, know you can make a valuable contribution in that way instead.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  7. #647
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Celestalon said in the Finalboss interview (which was quoted on MMOC frontpage) Warlock and Elemental were going to get the biggest nerf on their movement DPS.
    Celestalon also said they will leave KjC untouched and later justified his one-eighty with ... well he basically admitted he did it just for the lulz. This guy has flip-flopped on so many issues without any reasonable explanation other than his daily mood, i wouldn't trust anything that comes out of his mouth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rumblecrush View Post
    There's really no luck to it. Blizzard is VERY good at conditioning their low self-esteemed players into obedient pets. They come to see Blizzard as a close relative or extension of themselves, which is why any criticism is registered as judgement on their personal taste and MUST be defended against at all costs.

  8. #648
    You know that's the exact attitude that makes Blizzard not want to share anything with the community until it's done, right? The whole "taking anything and everything said as 100% committed gospel" thing. It's entirely possible for design and design goals to change day to day as more work and testing is done.

  9. #649
    Quote Originally Posted by Nagassh View Post
    The problem being it's not really "OK" if one of the specs is garbage on heavy movement, it's less bad than if a hybrid is, but it's certainly not good.
    By that logic it seems to suggest that a hybrid should be capable of performing well on every fight, at which point you're getting to the complete opposite of the hybrid tax - why take a pure if a hybrid's one spec is capable of performing on every fight + has the versatility of multiple roles?
    Hybrid tax as it was is gone, but some still remains, most notably in this expansion hybrids had strong utility and off healing. I never said Shadow must perform equal as all 3 Warlock specs combined, but the talent tree is Shadow's power to where Warlock gains its power from talent tree and 3 different specs. I fully underline a DPS able to pump out 100k HPS on Norushen or Thok does not have to be on par with the DPS of say a Warlock. In WoD, because hybrid off heal is nerfed (we only keep PWS and DP's self heal; rest is gone, but a perk will lower our WS from PWS), I expect they get compensated damage-wise.

    Destruction being bad on heavy movement, Affliction being bad on cleave, and Demonology being bad at ... something (AoE on distance, requiring melee range for optimal?), seems all niches and that's OK. One can also flip it around and enforce the notion of the positive.

    It might be okay if pure specs had identical gearing / stat weights - you may not even have that spec available if your classes specialities are spread over 3 different specs at which point you need to hearth, respec, reforge etc before a fight - I don't think that's "OK" anymore, and even then you'd have people who simply do not want to play that spec.
    Yep I get that point, it sucks if you gotta use your 3rd spec. Which is why generally 1 spec is best, and then the other one is good on one fight. Warlock @ Firelands, Mage @ Firelands, but also Mage @ ToT and Warlock @ SoO are all examples of that. I'm not sure about Warlock @ ToT. I know Demonology was great there, but I remember our Warlocks even being Affliction and Destruction on certain fights.

    I think it's fine if one spec is specialised more towards one role than another, but you shouldn't have a spec that is just complete and utter garbage in a scenario, which destro looks like it's shaping up to be.
    Light movement seems fine, heavy doesn't. Most fights are light movement. Only a few are heavy. On those heavy movement fights, melee are very likely going to shine. They already did actually, but the community doesn't seem to realize. Rogue and Feral? Amazing on both Lei Shen and Garrosh. Absolutely amazing damage and utility. If most ranged are going to suck on heavy movement, maybe with a talent or spec to cope with it, I'd say that's a good thing because -and I say that as a rDPS- melee do need a niche, or more precise: keep their niche, being: the best single target DPS on the move. That'd include Ret, WW, and at least one DK DPS spec.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  10. #650
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Maybe because Ele Sham is pretty shit right now? They provide some great cleave, and some off healing and utility, but one of the worst single target (you need to go Enhance for that). Ele's damage on the move is getting nerfed and Blizzard commented Warlock and Elemental were going to get hit the most hard on the damage on the move. No more Lightning Bolt on the move. No glyph for it either. And yet the Ele Sham community (IIRC it was an Elemenal Shaman from Temerity) did some preliminary theorycrafting, noting it wasn't a huge DPS loss.

    Strangely I don't see the Warlock community calculate their DPS loss at all ...
    Elemental shamans single target damage is not the worst. Shadow priests and Marksmanship hunters still dominate the number 1 & 2 spot.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Hikashuri View Post
    Elemental shamans single target damage is not the worst. Shadow priests and Marksmanship hunters still dominate the number 1 & 2 spot.
    They're terrible single target. True, a little bit better than Shadow, but terrible, and not far above Shadow. Which means they're among the worst.

    I discount MM in comparisons, because Hunter has 2 other viable specs, but don't tell the Warlocks here about that cause they'll surely find that unfair ...
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  12. #652
    since i dont have a max level warlock. besides movement while casting, whats the big deal about KJC?

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkvoltinx View Post
    since i dont have a max level warlock. besides movement while casting, whats the big deal about KJC?
    Nothing. That's the whole issue. With removing it and removing Fel Flame they did not only take away our movement DPS, but also the buttons we used to push during movement. Moving around now means you lack things to do especially when movement is prolonged or often, especially in Destruction.

    There's secondary issues, again, especially for Destruction, but most of the complaint is one of this creating uninteresting playstyles with increased movement.
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  14. #654
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Nothing. That's the whole issue. With removing it and removing Fel Flame they did not only take away our movement DPS, but also the buttons we used to push during movement. Moving around now means you lack things to do especially when movement is prolonged or often, especially in Destruction.

    There's secondary issues, again, especially for Destruction, but most of the complaint is one of this creating uninteresting playstyles with increased movement.
    i see. well all caster movement is being nerfed. i full understand why, even though they could have made a mechanic that is anti range that silences you until you move out of it.

  15. #655
    I'd much rather keep a damage nerfed Fel Flame and have KJC changed to something else. Maybe something like:

    "Kil'jaeden's Cunning - Calls upon the cunning of Kil'jaeden to reduce the mana cost of Warlock spells by 50%, and permit movement while casting non damaging Warlock spells. Lasts 8 sec. 2 charges. 1 min cd."

    That way, we get to keep Fel Flame (and while we're at it, how about making it available earlier in the Warlock leveling experience, say around mid-late teens?) along with an active talent that gives more mobile utility than mobile dps (which never ends well for us).
    Last edited by Roujeaux; 2014-06-07 at 03:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by pingdan View Post
    When life gives you lemons, throw them back and say, "WTF life?"

  16. #656
    Losing Fel flame as a resource generator is a crushing blow to both destro and demo in pvp. Shadow bolt especially as demo is just a ridiculously long cast time with mellee on you. And drain life won't be much of an alternative.

  17. #657
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucidious View Post
    Losing Fel flame as a resource generator is a crushing blow to both destro and demo in pvp. Shadow bolt especially as demo is just a ridiculously long cast time with mellee on you. And drain life won't be much of an alternative.
    Drain Life always felt to me like it screamed "Follow the green beam to where I am and interupt me", same with MG and DS for that matter. But there's just something so OBVIOUS to the green beam of Drain Life that it's going to be a psychological effect on opponents to follow it and make sure you stop doing it.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  18. #658

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    Drain Life always felt to me like it screamed "Follow the green beam to where I am and interupt me", same with MG and DS for that matter. But there's just something so OBVIOUS to the green beam of Drain Life that it's going to be a psychological effect on opponents to follow it and make sure you stop doing it.
    As if being a warlock was not enough of a big "come kill me" sign, they decide we need another.
    It's official, they hate warlocks.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  20. #660
    Scarab Lord Azutael's Avatar
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    Keep fel flame, remove KJC and come up with a new talent.

    I've watched some streams of alpha, and several have commented how "awkward" and weird it feels, to not have much to cast while moving, except for DoT's of course.
    I am definitively going to miss fel flame.

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