Page 42 of 43 FirstFirst ...
32
40
41
42
43
LastLast
  1. #821
    you're forgetting fire's setbonus with their 6 sec hot streak with 100% crit.

  2. #822
    Stood in the Fire Kagecamia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Hell aka Detroit
    Posts
    366
    So wait. Is fel flame back now? Or are we stuck in limbo.

    I am really starting to lose faith in the devs right now in regards to mobility. The whole purpose of toning down instants was to balance ranged.

    Now all I see is Blizz going back on what they planned with mobility with mages and are pretty much leaving us ignored.

    It does seem pretty retarded and sketchy if you ask me.

  3. #823
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    11,172
    It's not back, it's just the most confusing set of patch notes ever concieved by man.

  4. #824
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post

    The more I think about this, the more I am convinced MF should just be a straight, passive DPS boost. This isn't a mobility talent row. It's a DPS row with crappy DPS talents which may or may not benefit you against a mobility talent that will always benefit you.

    KJC - Either Live or Beta form.
    AD - DS now has two charges and increases your DS effect by X%
    MF - Increases your Versatility by an additional X%

    Two clear bonuses to DPS, one active, one passive with a bit of a survival bonus, and one for increased mobility traded off against those bonuses.
    Not going to happen. There's no talents anymore that are just "increases stat A by X%", that's the vanilla-to-cata style. Can't expect it to return. MF should be redesigned to give a dps increase in a broad sense (i.e. not just limited AoE scenarios), but it has to do so in a way that adds functionality or changes/enhances existing functionality.

    I've proposed they just add fel flame as the MF talent replacement (a more powerful fel flame than is on live today. If there are other ideas let's post them.

    Not judging the worth of your idea, only its likelihood for serious consideration. suggesting something completely contrary to the current talent design won't get us anywhere.

  5. #825
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    KJC is universal in that you will always gain something. When you balance that against MF, then on many fights the extra mobility is no penalty at all. Against AD, then it depends on the encounter length and in part on RNG as to how much benefit from the additional DS you actually gain. That makes it very difficult to gauge, so those questions make it less attractive. It needs to be an absolute cut and clear bonus, so KJC has a much clearer trade off.
    Heresy!
    as that is not accurate.

    For most scenarios, you simply do not gain anything of real value from KJC, even if you do, that 'something' has to be numerically equal (towards the other talents) or relevant/ non-personal gain/ no unnecessary padding.


    KJC is not universal either as it is only ever mostly useful for Destruction only, even then: it doesn't lighten your numerically critical spell, it is also limited to be 'useful' in PvE only and mostly HC, and in many cases: it is at best on even footing, but mostly numerically inferior compared to what two timely Dark Souls provides.

    KJC is also for certain much weaker for the unknown, mainly PvP: as they might not even choose to target you and then you receive nothing from it, should you have 'wrongly' anticipated attacks on you, but even if you can use it - it has also little relative value, as there is not much to be gained from fillers (which also applies to PvE). Fel Flame provides resources, and so does a Second DS for Affliction dwarfing extra MG Corruption ticks for Nightfall) but KJC is also weak for progress (as you simply do not know) and sudden world combat.

    AD has doesn't have this weakness in any way and can always be used in all other/ any scenario(s), compared to KJC and even MF - which makes AD a true universal talent.

    KJC requires quite a dozen lost trivial-filler casts to be remotely compared to AD, as with AD:
    - You are highly most likely to sync all your Dark Souls with procs, unlike non-AD options.
    - You gain much more resources from higher up-time on Haste boosted Corruption for Affliction compared to extra MG Corruption ticks.
    - A second Dark Soul also provides resources boost for Destruction too (even if you are moving).
    - Fel flame provides a comparable amount of resources and the off-set damage isn't far off.
    - For Demonology it is too dependent on strong burst phases.
    - Affliction is also too dependent on artificially buffed DoTs during snapshotting.
    - Even Destruction.

    As of this,
    under almost all circumstances, what KJC provides when it can provide: it is most trivial for being seemingly convenient.



    Which ultimately, makes KJC a trivial Destruction in HC PvE talent only.

  6. #826
    I think you missed the point entirely. That is that the minimum benefit of KJC is always higher than the minimum benefit of the alternatives. Those alternatives might offer a slightly higher max benefit, but only situationally, and only at high levels. Effectively that means as a baseline, the extra mobility doesn't come at much, if any real penalty.

    It's also ridiculous to focus on heroic PVE content for your argument too as there are so many aspects of the game.

    Ultimately it comes down to lowering the floor for KJC, or raising it for AD and MF. The latter just seems much easier because the floor for KJC can't get much lower.

  7. #827
    Fact disagreement.
    If the minimum benefit KJC is nothing, and under most circumstances virtually nothing for all aspects of the game, how can that remotely compare to AD? Even MF has a 'higher' minimum value.

  8. #828
    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthaven- View Post
    Fact disagreement.
    If the minimum benefit KJC is nothing, and under most circumstances virtually nothing for all aspects of the game, how can that remotely compare to AD? Even MF has a 'higher' minimum value.
    There are no encounters, other than Patchwerk, which is 7 years old now? Where the benefit from KJC is zero.

  9. #829
    Titan Nerraw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Denmark
    Posts
    11,172
    Ultraxion.

  10. #830
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerraw View Post
    Ultraxion.
    Got me. 2 Encounters in 7 years, definitely a significant indicator of an increasing trend in fight mechanics.

    Also worth pointing out, that without Fel Flame, AD and MF have a couple more steps to climb before they reach the KJC base; also meaning they have less room to overtake it, since their ceiling benefit isn't being raised either.

  11. #831
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    There are no encounters, other than Patchwerk, which is 7 years old now? Where the benefit from KJC is zero.
    Only for Destruction, and then is not usually numerically comparable and relevant, limited to HC only with a few exceptions on Normal, and limited to PvE only.

    It is seemingly popular for 'lesser players' in both PvE and PvP as it makes gameplay easy, convenient and more fluid, yet it doesn't provide anything of real value.

    Definitely not 'universal'

  12. #832
    Bloodsail Admiral Liquidsteel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Manchester, UK
    Posts
    1,139
    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthaven- View Post
    yet it doesn't provide anything of real value.
    Except Destruction's resource generation is directly tied to its filler spells, and Fel Flame's mana cost is punishing in periods of prolonged movement.

    Many fight's on heroic (if you've done them, especially the last few, I'm guessing you haven't) have many periods where movement is unavoidable, even if planned for. Cutting down Incinerate usage and substituting for Fel Flame, even with the addition of an extra Dark Soul, can often lead to a DPS loss.

    You talk about things in a vacuum as if movement is never an issue, however it is something that needs to be strongly considered in terms of talent choice for optimizing DPS. Many are in agreement that AD offers the highest ceiling, but you cannot base KJC worth on a perfect scenario for a different talent.

  13. #833
    Its really fun to see Celestalon and the DEVs spin their wheels on KJC, they're literally stuck in a rock and a hard place, by gating damage to a large extent on filler ticks they now have to figure out how to help movement and at the same time not over buff our dots. Ultimately they're going to realize that the current live iteration of KJC is the most balanced especially when it comes to their design philosophy.

  14. #834
    Quote Originally Posted by Urgganzish View Post
    Its really fun to see Celestalon and the DEVs spin their wheels on KJC, they're literally stuck in a rock and a hard place, by gating damage to a large extent on filler ticks they now have to figure out how to help movement and at the same time not over buff our dots. Ultimately they're going to realize that the current live iteration of KJC is the most balanced especially when it comes to their design philosophy.
    It's to seem legit that they were actually considering removing fel flame instead of KJC in the first place.

  15. #835
    You guys are spending so much effort discussing the benefit of kjc on live in a thread about kjc being changed in wod alpha. Sorry if I've missed the point because I've only gone back a couple pages. In fact, because of the removal of ff, it's making kjc look like a much more viable option since high movement is going to be so much more punishing.

  16. #836
    Quote Originally Posted by Moruff View Post
    You guys are spending so much effort discussing the benefit of kjc on live in a thread about kjc being changed in wod alpha. Sorry if I've missed the point because I've only gone back a couple pages. In fact, because of the removal of ff, it's making kjc look like a much more viable option since high movement is going to be so much more punishing.
    I think you are missing the point. The combination of the two changes takes away basically all mobility for 52 secs per minute. The complaint is inter-related. There's a few people in the thread suggesting KJC isn't powerful on live anyway, I think it's safe to say most warlocks and certainly the devs disagree with that argument.

    As to your assertion that taking away FF makes KJC more appealing, can you find me a fight where movement only happens once per minute and then lasts for 8 seconds? Movement tends to occur more often than that and in short bursts. So the current double whammy of losing the more powerful KJC and also losing fel flame feels like it will be overly punitive.

  17. #837
    Quote Originally Posted by Turturin the Warlock View Post
    I think you are missing the point. The combination of the two changes takes away basically all mobility for 52 secs per minute. The complaint is inter-related. There's a few people in the thread suggesting KJC isn't powerful on live anyway, I think it's safe to say most warlocks and certainly the devs disagree with that argument.

    As to your assertion that taking away FF makes KJC more appealing, can you find me a fight where movement only happens once per minute and then lasts for 8 seconds? Movement tends to occur more often than that and in short bursts. So the current double whammy of losing the more powerful KJC and also losing fel flame feels like it will be overly punitive.
    Even if movement isn't in neat 8s intervals every 60s, it's still appealing to be able to have at least some movement dps when you want it. You don't need to take full advantage of it every cooldown as soon as it comes off cooldown. Let's say you take AD and you do a fight but end up having to move for a total of say 20+s total of DS, then it might be feasible to take kjc. Just an example, clearly situational and not all inclusive. In fact may change fight to fight, attempt to attempt. I'm not saying always go kjc, but having very few options for movement dps otherwise, it increases its usefulness compared to KJC on live.

    Also, there was a time when warlocks didn't have FF at all, so we would cast dots or just move without casting anything. We would have more reason to set up portals in good spots to gain a tiny bit of dps. Whatever it may be. We had a luxury for a while, and now they are taking it away. Doesn't really seem like a big deal to me, but I can understand others' finding exception.

    As far as I could tell, people are discussing how strong KJC on live is compared to AD. Not sure how that relates to KJC in WoD. That's all my post was about really.

  18. #838
    Alot of us here are actually on the beta so we do know how KJC is currently in the beta, the only thing we don't know is the fight mechanics we would be applying it to.
    With the removal of fel flame and the heavy nerf to KJC even now we can see it is going to be bit of a problem.

  19. #839
    Quote Originally Posted by Moruff View Post
    You guys are spending so much effort discussing the benefit of kjc on live in a thread about kjc being changed in wod alpha. Sorry if I've missed the point because I've only gone back a couple pages. In fact, because of the removal of ff, it's making kjc look like a much more viable option since high movement is going to be so much more punishing.
    I think the power gap presented isn't big enough, it would be fine if the other talents offered greater relative benefit. I believe that to be true both on Live, and on Beta where the lack of Fel Flame weakens those alternatives even against a weaker KJC. That's why I don't believe in FF as a talent to replace KJC is a viable option - it would still weaken AD/MF.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nighthaven- View Post
    Only for Destruction, and then is not usually numerically comparable and relevant, limited to HC only with a few exceptions on Normal, and limited to PvE only.

    It is seemingly popular for 'lesser players' in both PvE and PvP as it makes gameplay easy, convenient and more fluid, yet it doesn't provide anything of real value.

    Definitely not 'universal'
    I'll just draw a picture.


  20. #840
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    Except Destruction's resource generation is directly tied to its filler spells, and Fel Flame's mana cost is punishing in periods of prolonged movement.

    Many fight's on heroic (if you've done them, especially the last few, I'm guessing you haven't) have many periods where movement is unavoidable, even if planned for. Cutting down Incinerate usage and substituting for Fel Flame, even with the addition of an extra Dark Soul, can often lead to a DPS loss.

    You talk about things in a vacuum as if movement is never an issue, however it is something that needs to be strongly considered in terms of talent choice for optimizing DPS. Many are in agreement that AD offers the highest ceiling, but you cannot base KJC worth on a perfect scenario for a different talent.


    Fel Flame still provides equal resource generation, it is not mana sustainable, but you can pair it with managing Conflagrate better.

    You seem to be forgetting that a second Dark Soul also boosts resource-generation massively.

    KJC still doesn't solve your numerically critical spell: Chaos bolt, you only lose filler(s) - and if you loose chaos-bolt paired with strong fading proc, you didn't have any 'better' time with KJC. and why would you pop Dark Soul when you may move suddenly, especially when you can delay DS with no penalty with AD.

    When DS is that critical for any Warlock spec, and you lose incredibly much by not pairing it with the obnoxious strong trinket procs, but you still are forced to cast DS without AD (with the exception of the sync on pull) - those fillers are even less worth.


    As for PvE, I've only ever used Demonology for all content and heroics, but I've used the other specs for PvP. KJC is popular for the lesser arena players (as well as PvE), but your filler is not anywhere near dangerous (as it is numerically bad), and that is why all the greater Warlocks pick AD - it wouldn't surprise me if this is also the case for most PvE fights also (that most of the best logs use AD - however I haven't checked this).


    - You cannot base KJC worth on forced movement under the worst timings either.

    Movement is never that severe that AD is completely useless/ you were delayed for more than 1m30s from popping DS, but the RNG from timing that one DS with KJC can be terribly bad, and it is most likely completely random. You may also never get any relevant use of KJC either.


    And when the ceiling of KJC is only comparably high to AD for Destruction only (if it is at all), it isn't a universally strong talent.


    @ Jessicka

    ...and?
    That graph is only applicable to Destruction. And why should KJC provide nothing in circumstances when it can't provide a thing? No other class talent does that. Even Druids HoW provides a flat 6% stat.
    Last edited by Nighthaven-; 2014-07-14 at 09:56 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •