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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    I think the 1 min CD is great though, for general purposes at least. I don't mind sharing CDs with potions though, it then makes it a choice you make based on how the fight is going. Need the dps? Use a pot. Have an "oh crap!" moment? Use the boosts to help you get out of trouble. I'd say that's a reasonable choice to have. I'm assuming that if dps/health pots do have different CDs this would be tied to the dps pot CD.
    I don't know why you think that's a reasonable choice, because it isn't. That's why talents aren't supposed to be that kind of choice, because it isn't a choice at all. You can't make it a choice between utility and doing damage.

  2. #22
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    I don't know why you think that's a reasonable choice, because it isn't. That's why talents aren't supposed to be that kind of choice, because it isn't a choice at all. You can't make it a choice between utility and doing damage.
    This isn't a talent and not at all the same situation as a talent.

    It is a minor bonus from a profession, which they are giving you as a reliable option to use as a "oh crap" moment once per fight during a raid. If you don't need it or want it, then you don't ever have to use it. If you do need it then great, you now have that choice. And yes, its a choice. If you get into trouble and this saves you from dying, that's worth more dps than using a dps pot isn't it? This simply gives you another option, should you need it. If you don't need it, or you've already used a dps pot that fight, then it doesn't help or harm you. If you do, its there. That is a reasonable choice.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 2014-06-11 at 05:48 PM.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    This isn't a talent and not at all the same situation as a talent..
    Yeah, it's a lot harder to change than a talent.

    The rule of thumb for Blizzard is that it can't be a choice between utility and damage, because guess what? Damage wins. Period. Always. Forever. This game has been around long enough to look at its history and know that much.

    You know what your "interesting" choice equates to? Maybe 1 or 2 people (in min/max setting, which is the only thing that matters) wasting their potion CD on a specific fight mechanic where they need to run fast. What "interesting" choice? Are you joking?

    It's the same REASON you can't put a damage talent on the same tier as a utility talent. BECAUSE NOBODY PICKS THE UTILITY. It can't be a choice between damage and utility.

  4. #24
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    Yeah, it's a lot harder to change than a talent.

    The rule of thumb for Blizzard is that it can't be a choice between utility and damage, because guess what? Damage wins. Period. Always. Forever. This game has been around long enough to look at its history and know that much.

    You know what your "interesting" choice equates to? Maybe 1 or 2 people (in min/max setting, which is the only thing that matters) wasting their potion CD on a specific fight mechanic where they need to run fast. What "interesting" choice? Are you joking?
    No, I'm not joking because we're talking about a minor bonus coming from a profession. Its not supposed to be much more than something for fun, and now it has a possible small use in a raid if you need it. Its not a choice in the sense that its equal. Its not - the dps pot (and we don't even know if its tied to a dps pot CD specifically yet) is the best option. I'm not arguing that. It is a "choice" in that will have this other option, for those odd chances that you might need or want it. That's a good thing. Any serious raider isn't going to complain about having an extra tool in their belt (no pun intended) for making progress, even if its not something they need much. Min/max'ers will use it from time to time and it will be helpful for them. Others won't, and they can just use it to get around the world faster every minute. And that's all that you should expect from something coming from a profession.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    Any serious raider isn't going to complain about having an extra tool in their belt (no pun intended) for making progress, even if its not something they need much.
    Any 'serious' raider realizes that function that's being taken away (can no longer use potion + nitro) isn't giving them an additional tool in their belt. And they also realize they aren't going to drop a DPS potion for a sprint. Under any circumstances.

  6. #26
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    Any 'serious' raider realizes that function that's being taken away (can no longer use potion + nitro) isn't giving them an additional tool in their belt. And they also realize they aren't going to drop a DPS potion for a sprint. Under any circumstances.
    Its not being taken away, as it stands now the boosts aren't 100% guaranteed to work. It is a reasonable trade-off to make them completely reliable to tie them to a potion CD. And you're wrong about "under any circumstances". During progression mistakes happen and people get into bad spots. If using this gets you out of that bad spot and remaining alive then its worth more than a dps potion.

    Hell, now that its 100% reliable and going BoE, I'd expect that at some point we'll see some top guild finding a way to use/abuse/exploit it to help kill a boss that they are very undergeared for. A couple people using those to kite a boss that doesn't have a hard enrage and giving the rest of the raid and extra 10+ seconds of dps time is going to be a greater dps gain than those 2 people using dps pots, particularly if its healers/tanks doing that kiting. That's an immediately obvious way it could be useful.
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  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    That's an immediately obvious way it could be useful.
    I'll wait for you to post me a video of this immediately obvious example in action. I won't hold my breath.

    (I won't point out how a class with evasion/deflection is actually useful in this example, and how melee can't attack a boss while they're being kited as well)
    Last edited by Daerio; 2014-06-11 at 06:22 PM.

  8. #28
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    A boss enrages at 6 minutes but its not a hard enrage. At 6 mins you start having people taunt and run to kite boss and allow raid extra time to dps the boss. You need a video to show how this could allow the rest of the raid additional dps time and how that could offset the loss of dps pots? Particularly if said kiting is being done by a healer or tank?

    You don't see how this could possibly have been useful for the people who managed dreadflame on heroic Rag? If you could get through the P3 dps check to P4 without them needing their dps pots then that would have been helpful, particularly on 10 man. Or if someone messed up and got cornered by a meteor on that fight as well. Or how it might be helpful to have it as a backup for kiting iron stars on heroic Garrosh? Maybe your priest died and so you don't have feathers available, or it spawned on the wrong person, or that person just made a mistake and now is going to get hit. On heroic Thok it would be a nice backup if the kiting didn't go as planned.

    There are plenty of times where it could be useful because mistakes happened. In a vacuum its never going to be a better choice than a dps pot, but I would rather have it be 100% reliable and tied to a pot CD than off the pot CD but could backfire. Obviously you disagree with that, which is fine, but that doesn't mean this change has no value at all and will never be used.
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    A boss enrages at 6 minutes but its not a hard enrage. At 6 mins you start having people taunt and run to kite boss and allow raid extra time to dps the boss. You need a video to show how this could allow the rest of the raid additional dps time and how that could offset the loss of dps pots? Particularly if said kiting is being done by a healer or tank?
    Grasping at straws. You think someone holding their nitro boosts and sacrificing a DPS potion will increase the likelihood of killing a tight enrage boss? Ridiculous. Honestly dude. Can you get real for a minute and NOT play devil's advocate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilderness View Post
    You don't see how this could possibly have been useful for the people who managed dreadflame on heroic Rag? If you could get through the P3 dps check to P4 without them needing their dps pots then that would have been helpful, particularly on 10 man. Or if someone messed up and got cornered by a meteor on that fight as well. Or how it might be helpful to have it as a backup for kiting iron stars on heroic Garrosh? Maybe your priest died and so you don't have feathers available, or it spawned on the wrong person, or that person just made a mistake and now is going to get hit. On heroic Thok it would be a nice backup if the kiting didn't go as planned.
    So like I said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    You know what your "interesting" choice equates to? Maybe 1 or 2 people (in min/max setting, which is the only thing that matters) wasting their potion CD on a specific fight mechanic where they need to run fast. What "interesting" choice? Are you joking?
    (If they didn't already use their DPS potion to make sure they'd make the tight DPS check on a fight like Thok, lol)

    And, what did this change add to this dynamic?

    Or, did it in fact TAKE AWAY from it? I think so.

  10. #30
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    I'll wait for you to post me a video of this immediately obvious example in action. I won't hold my breath.

    (I won't point out how a class with evasion/deflection is actually useful in this example, and how melee can't attack a boss while they're being kited as well)
    Of course that's useful, and you're right that it would limit your melee to those with speed abilities as well. But that doesn't mean its not useful or helpful. There are still situations where it can help in that specific case, or in the others that I just listed in my other post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    Grasping at straws. You think someone holding their nitro boosts and sacrificing a DPS potion will increase the likelihood of killing a tight enrage boss? Ridiculous. Honestly dude. Can you get real for a minute and NOT play devil's advocate?
    If that person isn't even a dps? Yes, it might help. I'm not claiming this is going to be amazing or incredibly useful.

    It is a small bonus from a profession, and that's all it adds up to. It may have some uses here and there, but overall it won't. That's the purposeful design by Blizzard, and as I said, I think it is a better raid tool when its 100% reliable even though its tied to a pot CD rather than not tied to the CD but not always reliable. On the off-chance that you need it, it will work. People who min/max will find some uses for it every now and then. And most of the time it won't matter. That's the design intent and I think its better this way than how it currently stands. That's all I've ever been saying, I'm not claiming it will be some super awesome tool that will just be used all the time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Daerio View Post
    And, what did this change add to this dynamic?

    Or, did it in fact TAKE AWAY from it? I think so.
    The reason I think it is better this way is because as it is reliable, you COULD use it for more than a "oh crap" button. On a fight where you don't need the additional dps, you may be able to use it to help your raid deal with a particular mechanic that is giving you problems. You could use it to help your raid get in position on the pull faster. That's why I think this is a better choice. As it stands now, if you're an engineer and you find yourself in a bad spot, you might as well use it because if it blows up you were going to die anyway. But you can never use it as a part of any actual strategy since its unreliable. Making it reliable adds that factor to it, which I think makes it a more "interesting" tool.

    Yes, I know it will still rarely be used as part of an actual strategy, probably the most useful thing overall might be using it to help position on pulls if you can't get to the right spots until combat starts. But I like that the option is there, and I believe that there will be times that it gets used that way - the rest of the times it will be ignored just like it is ignored in combat now.
    Last edited by Wilderness; 2014-06-11 at 06:43 PM.
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  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    If the fights a dps check your tanks and where possible healers should be using dps pots anyway and tehrefore be on CD. Healers aren't going to get aggro until most of the dps are dead (remember not many have full threat drops) on top.

    More importantly, THEY ARE BUFFING FRAG BELT AND PLASMA SHIELD. I can't imagine seeing nitro boosts having any place in non gimmicky kills. Those gimmicks will likely to beat a mechanic easier than beat a dps check too. Almost every class either has a sprint or can be given a sprint now through different mechanics as well.

    I wouldn't see an issue with an engineering thing being considered "incredibly useful" considering that's exactly what pots and flasks are already.

    You also seem very bad at managing a self dot. Right now the belt is fine for using at times you aren't risk of immediate death (ideally with a minor cd if you can spare) and if it doesn't work you use your backup that you'd use as a non-engineer. If it does your backup can allow you to retain more dps at another time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

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