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  1. #181
    Not seeing much beta discussion here... just a lot of rable rable..
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gSQg1i_q2g point proven

    So how is shadow playing in the beta? I myself haven't gotten an invite yet (cough cough veteran invites bs). But am highly curious on how it plays atm shadow is my number 2 choice for a main since holy is my fav healing spec. I never quite liked shadow tho. Talents suggest ( last i read could have changed by now ) that a direct damage option would be viable (again) over dotting.
    "I'm Tru @ w/e I do" ~ TM

  2. #182
    I have not, thus far, participated in betas. Nonetheless, as it stands, the patch notes on the Shadow Priest are worrying. While healing has often been subject to criticism, nearly removing this part of the Shadow specialization is like ripping a crack in the backbone. The Shadow Priest is a Priest. Always been, and will always be. The light must stay, and everything else attached to the priestly nature of the specialization. I hope, at least, that no more damage will be done to the healing. The healing from damage does not mean much. We're not Warlocks.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirkzat View Post
    I have not, thus far, participated in betas. Nonetheless, as it stands, the patch notes on the Shadow Priest are worrying. While healing has often been subject to criticism, nearly removing this part of the Shadow specialization is like ripping a crack in the backbone. The Shadow Priest is a Priest. Always been, and will always be. The light must stay, and everything else attached to the priestly nature of the specialization. I hope, at least, that no more damage will be done to the healing. The healing from damage does not mean much. We're not Warlocks.
    What are you all concerned over being removed? If anything we're stronger on beta than live right now.

  4. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestar View Post
    What are you all concerned over being removed? If anything we're stronger on beta than live right now.
    Power output is irrelevant to my point. I simply want the utilities to stay. I disagree, for instance, with certain Holy spells not being usable in Shadowform. Takes away what Shadow Priest holds unique to itself.

  5. #185
    See most prefer their class to be relevant than unique.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Dropson View Post
    See most prefer their class to be relevant than unique.
    It wasn't relevant prior to utilities going away?

  7. #187
    Mastery, SoD + ToF/SI + CoP

    mind spike spam, bind blast + DP on CD, dots on ads in boss fights only to proc SoD

  8. #188
    I disagree that certain druid spells can't be used by priest - hear me cry

    p.s. DP heal in beta is extremely strong and doesn't cost you an extra pointless utility based hybrid heal i.e. renew/pom

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirkzat View Post
    It wasn't relevant prior to utilities going away?
    Barely. I've said many times I'd give all my healing away in exchange for more damage.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Cerbz View Post
    Barely. I've said many times I'd give all my healing away in exchange for more damage.
    Ah, barely. 10 years being generally stable and useful. Incidentally that counts as "barely." Nonetheless, I presume you are a PvE player, which is fine - except that if you want the huge damage, why don't you roll a Warlock for that? You do understand that the moment you choose the Shadow specialization, you are NOT giving up the Discipline and Holy nature of the class in their entirety?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MDWiemann View Post
    p.s. DP heal in beta is extremely strong and doesn't cost you an extra pointless utility based hybrid heal i.e. renew/pom
    Not pointless. However, it is obvious that you and most people care about the PvE aspect, which barely does anything to affect my point. A class' potential in general is mostly exercised outside PvE. Your talent for using other utilities than your prime ones (like damaging) is not brought into question.

  11. #191
    You cant please everyone.
    There are more people who were concerned with shadows damage.

    The class has two healing specs and you're upset that shadow lost some of its utility to further flush out its role as a DPS?

  12. #192
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mirkzat View Post
    Ah, barely. 10 years being generally stable and useful. Incidentally that counts as "barely." Nonetheless, I presume you are a PvE player, which is fine - except that if you want the huge damage, why don't you roll a Warlock for that? You do understand that the moment you choose the Shadow specialization, you are NOT giving up the Discipline and Holy nature of the class in their entirety?
    They moved away from the Support spec model (spriests, dps shamans, rets) during the WotLK beta, and they denounced the Hybrid Tax model during the Cataclysm beta: at least officially, unofficially it is obviously still in play.

    You are meant to pick a class based on whether the identity appeals to you - not FOTM to whatever does the most damage for the given expansion / tier / fight. If people want to be DPS Priests, they should be competitive with Warlocks, who should be competitive with Rogues, and Hunters, and Warriors: that's the current idea / model. Competitive DPS, competitive utility, competitive etc - no class is supposed to have strong strengths or weaknesses anymore.

    You can argue that's a dumb model - that greater diversity is more interesting - but the commitment to get to max level and gear to BiS is far, far greater in WoW than it is in other competitive games (whether PvE or PvP). In League of Legends, if my team needs a mage/support, I play Morgana - if we need an assassin I play Evelynn - to switch this I need only push a single button at champion select. With sufficient 'specialization' diversity you can create some flavour of mage-support, or assassin, or etc - that appeals to anyone: but WoW has ~30 specs to LoL's 120+ champions.

    WoW would be a very different game if I could just select a BiS Affliction Lock at login one day, and then a BiS Unholy DK the next - we would FOTM reroll by design, and we wouldn't have relationships with our character/identity as a class: that's not the way RPG's work.

    I agree that healing is a part of Shadow identity - but it's also highly problematic for both PvE and PvP. When it's very strong, our presence makes encounters designed to be 2-healed hard to predict, since when things get rough suddenly it's more like 2.5-3 healers present. The same is true for 3's - when Shadow's heals are very potent, the enemy team can CC my healer and try to burst my teammate - and I can just stand there and bomb flash heals and shields to keep the rogue alive. That's problematic to balance for more than just the obvious - it reduces the choices of the enemy team regarding who they can kill - they have to kill either me or the healer, while CC'ing the other - and letting the rogue peel: it takes a rogue kill off the table.

    We saw this with patch 5.2's Shatreeplay most recently, where Symbiosis not only gives the Druid an ice block+trinket effect depending on what they need at any given moment, it also gives the Mage Healing Touch - which means that in a pinch, potentially anybody or everybody on Shatreeplay is a healer. They try so hard to make sure that double hybrid comps are not viable to avoid this - but then they gave heals to mages this expansion (along with a lot of other nonsense that Shatreeplay leverages) - and we have seen the result: a team that - earlier in the expansion - could only die if they made mistakes.

    When Shadow's heals are very weak, we still pay a utility and/or DPS cost for their presence in our toolkit - in MoP - Shadow typically pays the cost of their HPS*2 in DPS for having that HPS - it's not a coincidence that on fights like Juggernaut and Malkorok our DPS sucks, but our HPS rivals the bad healers. In PvP, every few seasons we get our heals demolished (because they ended up too strong for one reason or another) - to the point where they aren't worth casting under any combat circumstance: they become out-of-combat / pillar bandages - where it takes us 15 casts and all our mana to heal up over the course of 20-25 seconds of spamming Fheals. Yet, despite that they occasionally become entirely and completely useless - we still are balanced around having the option to use them.

    By reducing our retinue of options, and the size of our kit, we reduce the option-cost that Blizzard charges us for retaining. Overall, I think that the WoD simplification of WoW is the wrong direction to go for the game - but it could be beneficial to balance, at the very least, since it makes the game easier for the Devs to understand.


    Not pointless. However, it is obvious that you and most people care about the PvE aspect, which barely does anything to affect my point. A class' potential in general is mostly exercised outside PvE. Your talent for using other utilities than your prime ones (like damaging) is not brought into question.
    Do you even play a Spriest?
    Last edited by Yvaelle; Today at 01:00 AM.
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  13. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirkzat View Post
    Ah, barely. 10 years being generally stable and useful. Incidentally that counts as "barely." Nonetheless, I presume you are a PvE player, which is fine - except that if you want the huge damage, why don't you roll a Warlock for that? You do understand that the moment you choose the Shadow specialization, you are NOT giving up the Discipline and Holy nature of the class in their entirety?
    For one, I both PvE and PvP. Secondly, I do have a Warlock which I raid and PvP on as well, however I find both Destro and Affliction boring.

    And I hope you do understand that being a Spriest my only concern is doing what Shadow is supposed to do, which is damage. No one brings Shadow to raids for utility, there's nothing special about Shadow's off healing in raids(except on very rare occasions the raid is stacked+DS) or arenas, and there's nothing wrong with playing a DPS spec and only wanting to concern yourself with damage.

    I realize that in Shadow you retain some Disc/Holy spells, but I don't think those things make Shadow "unique" to me and that quite frankly if Shadow DPS is suffering because of those spells, Blizz can take them all IMO--we can be balanced around not having those things.

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