[6.0] Shadow Priest Discussion

[mindp]

It is, and that's partially why this is a problem.

There's generally 1-2 fights per tier, where your talent choices will match roughly what you would choose on a patchwerk fight. In the case of SoO we're talking Iron Juggernaut and to an extent (depending on strat changes) Sha of Pride and Malkorok. You can argue that your T75 and T90 will change but that ultimately won't change the placement of the T100 talents in relative power for that kind of fight.

The fact is on a single target (pushing into 2 target) CoP blows the rest out of the water. 3k DPS difference is no laughing matter. In order to take advantage of this you do need a mastery focused gear set, that's already been shown. Not sure about the rest of your guilds, but for myself I sure as hell can't justify taking an entire second set of gear from mages/locks during progression, its just not gonna happen.

There hasn't been a Patchwerk, since, well Patchwerk. It's been said for years now, that Patchwerk Sims don't matter. Especially in Beta/PTRs. I get what you're trying to say about talent selection, but otherwise the Patchwerk Sims are irrelevant in the long run. It seems there is a lot of wasted QQ, this thread is an echo chamber.


You also can't say it's the best way to show the potential of each class is through a Patchwerk, some classes will inherently do better past single target, movement and gimmicks. That should be obvious.

[Dierdre]

There hasn't been a Patchwerk, since, well Patchwerk. It's been said for years now, that Patchwerk Sims don't matter.

For that matter no sim matters since no fight fits exactly the simcraft models. As Nestar pointed out, the patchwerk model is to some extent a valid (if not exact) extrapolation for many fights like Feng, Sha of Pride, Iron Juggernaut, Malkorok, and even Norushen or Sha of Fear depending on strats and if you understand what you're looking at. Patchwerk can be taken (with a grain of salt) as a raw measure of single target maximum throughput, which is important.

[mindp]

For that matter no sim matters since no fight fits exactly the simcraft models. As Nestar pointed out, the patchwerk model is to some extent a valid (if not exact) extrapolation for many fights like Feng, Sha of Pride, Iron Juggernaut, Malkorok, and even Norushen or Sha of Fear depending on strats and if you understand what you're looking at. Patchwerk can be taken (with a grain of salt) as a raw measure of single target maximum throughput, which is important.

Besides getting stat weights, there isn't much for Patchwerk Sims. Remember the context which my reply is too. There was QQ about how bad shadow is, in rank or that it 'needs' separate gear. I call BS. Every expansion has people that link the current SimC, and go nuts with the sky is falling rants. For a lot those in that camp, shadow historically isn't a single target spec. We shine 2+ targets, and we are competitive. Soon, I'm sure Twintop will release a single target and 2 target SimC spectrum like he did with MoP beta, and you'll understand.

http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/?p=396
http://warcraft.twintop-tahoe.com/?p=117


Disclamer from SimC

Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta! Beta!

[Echocho]

I was wondering about haste caps for CoP. Since you can't cast faster than 1 sec due to gcd anything above 50% haste will be a complete waste in regards to mind spike. Should we stop at 20% not to go over it with bloodlust?

[Dawnrage]

I was wondering about haste caps for CoP. Since you can't cast faster than 1 sec due to gcd anything above 50% haste will be a complete waste in regards to mind spike. Should we stop at 20% not to go over it with bloodlust?

I might be crazy but right now with PI, Bloodlust, the legendary meta gem and running about 50% haste, I swear my GCD feels a lot lower than 1 second. Can anyone confirm/deny if they removed the 1 second GCD cap or not? I definitely don't feel like my spells are lagging behind with all of the above.

[kaamila]

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

friend linked me this. wonder how true it can be. locks not at the top? what sorcery is this!

[Dierdre]

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

friend linked me this. wonder how true it can be. locks not at the top? what sorcery is this!

Warriors not on top, I call shennanigans.

[Nestar]

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17M.html

friend linked me this. wonder how true it can be. locks not at the top? what sorcery is this!

There's a ton of hotfixes in there that are definitely intended to fix stuff at 90 that have a very good chance of either being totally reverted or altered prior to lvl 100 content. The Windwalker changes for example, If I remember right are coded as a passive hidden spell that just modifies all the existing abilities, they didn't actually change any of them directly. Some of the ones that jumped significantly last week when we got our 10% buffs to flay/spike/blast could be back where they were shortly.

[Alanar]

Yes, it was patchwerk.

This used to be a cool thread.. now it's nothing more but a patchwork PVE thread.. It's like Ive been reading through 3 or more pages here on whos right or not about some fucking sims.. who fucking cares dude?

I quit pve at end of wrath.. so this thread was relevant at start with changes and glyphs... but in the end it all comes down to boring sims..

gg

[Ilir]

This used to be a cool thread.. now it's nothing more but a patchwork PVE thread.. It's like Ive been reading through 3 or more pages here on whos right or not about some fucking sims.. who fucking cares dude?

I quit pve at end of wrath.. so this thread was relevant at start with changes and glyphs... but in the end it all comes down to boring sims..

gg

Then instead of making a rant... you could contribute about something that you're interested in or stop reading this "irrelevant and boring thread". Don't you think ?

[Dawnrage]

This used to be a cool thread.. now it's nothing more but a patchwork PVE thread.. It's like Ive been reading through 3 or more pages here on whos right or not about some fucking sims.. who fucking cares dude?

I quit pve at end of wrath.. so this thread was relevant at start with changes and glyphs... but in the end it all comes down to boring sims..

gg

Obviously more than you think since it's three or more "boring" pages of sims. If you have nothing to add don't post please.

Anyway back on topic, I really think the hotfixes are banaid fixes for people not having multistrike etc. I doubt they will let us keep the 10% mindflay/mspike/mindblast buff.

I imagine most if not every class will be reverted to how they were at first in WoD. WW especially is weak just because they lack multistrike, so if they keep their changes they are going to be monsters.

[Mooninites]

There hasn't been a Patchwerk, since, well Patchwerk. It's been said for years now, that Patchwerk Sims don't matter.

There hasn't been a pure patchwerk in years, you are correct but as ThrashMetalFTW pointed out there are fights that are very close to that. Look at Iron Juggernaut or Malkorok. They're not pure patchwerk fights and require some movement etc, but for the most part it is a patchwerk style. Its hard for me to speak to the shadow priest because I've been raidng on my feral for the entire expansion, but fights like Iron Juggernaut, Malkorok, Blackfuse are pretty much entirely patchwerk for me. The point is these fights are not pure patchwerk but that doesn't make the patchwek sims irrelevant because there are bosses in which you are sitting there hammering away on the boss, Sha of pride is another great example there's movement like closing rifts, getting people out of prisons, etc but for a large portion of the fight your just on the boss. In fact pretty much every boss has a patchwerk element (with exception to Spoils I guess) which makes it more common than not ever having pure patchwerk fights. I don't think its irrelevant and I think its pretty healthy for dps specs to look at where they stand when they are just hitting the boss because that actually happens more than you think

[mindp]

You're going to tell me, that if you look at the class/spec comparative in all dps, on Patchwerk, and claim that will be indicative for an entire expansion in regrades to which class or spec to play. You're crazy. By the way, if you move once, snag any dps on an add or cheese some kind of mechanic, it isn't a Patchwerk fight.

E: I just realized you don't even get what the conversation was about. /shrug

[Setheria]

You're going to tell me, that if you look at the class/spec comparative in all dps, on Patchwerk, and claim that will be indicative for an entire expansion in regrades to which class or spec to play. You're crazy. By the way, if you move once, snag any dps on an add or cheese some kind of mechanic, it isn't a Patchwerk fight.

E: I just realized you don't even get what the conversation was about. /shrug

Patchwerk fights are not at all typical of encounters these days - that much is a given, and anyone trying to draw direct parallels that damage meters will reflect the resultant sims overall is missing the point.

But at the same time, Patchwerk sim data is useful and it does matter.

Particularly on prog, having strong single target damage matters hugely when you have to switch and kill a priority target. You're not taking your time spreading dots, you're dropping your collective shit and putting everything you can on to that target to meet the dps check, because you're undergeared in early prog (aka when it matters most), every ounce of damage matters.

And when it comes to those types of on demand damage requirement, it's a worthwhile question to ask. Single target damage almost always matters, regardless of the encounter type.

That's not to say that there's not a bunch of nonsense posts that spring up saying the sky is falling because simcraft said so, but the data still has relevance and has use as a measuring tool for encounters beyond the original Patchwerk fight it emulated.

[Dierdre]

Has anyone found a fight yet where CoP didn't pull ahead? I ran Highmaul tonight on t17 gear, and it's a CoPfest. I tried running AS for Brackenspore, I had almost 1k less dps than with CoP lite with crit on nearly every non-tier piece.

Also, DoTs suck big time. SW:Wet Noodle.

And Mind Sear sucks even worse. Not even Mind Tickle. Honestly every time I cast Mind Sear there's this voice in my head saying "Why even bother?"

But yep, on single target we're kind of ok.

[Echocho]

Has anyone found a fight yet where CoP didn't pull ahead? I ran Highmaul tonight on t17 gear, and it's a CoPfest. I tried running AS for Brackenspore, I had almost 1k less dps than with CoP lite with crit on nearly every non-tier piece.

Also, DoTs suck big time. SW:Wet Noodle.

Have you tried running standard CoP with a more mastery heavy set of gear? It would be nice to hear your impressions on that one.

[Qualia]

Particularly on prog, having strong single target damage matters hugely when you have to switch and kill a priority target. You're not taking your time spreading dots, you're dropping your collective shit and putting everything you can on to that target to meet the dps check, because you're undergeared in early prog (aka when it matters most), every ounce of damage matters.

And when it comes to those types of on demand damage requirement, it's a worthwhile question to ask. Single target damage almost always matters, regardless of the encounter type.

It's true that there are fights during progression where single target damage is important. However, fight with emphasis on single target damage is NOT Patchwerk fight. It's wrong and seems to be a common mistake nowadays. Patchwerk fights on simcraft is defined strictly as "single target without any movement" fight. So unless it's a fight where you plant your feet at a spot and DPS one mob from start to the end, it's not Patchwerk. Adding movement (be it light movement or heavy movement required), or add in some kind of adds you can use to game ToF / DI / FDCL procs, or orbs from SWD / GoMH, and Patchwerk won't be a good representation. So Patchwerk sims don't really tell much about classes and as you said, QQing about Patchwerk sim makes little senses.
A really obvious example would be that same sim result - according to it, SP should be really bad during T17. Yet, even if you are to ignore my testing experience, there were other more respectable SPs who have done PTR with high ranking guilds (xlate: not a bunch of nobody who don't have any clue what to do) reported that we were doing well on many fights.

It was the reason why I asked a few days / pages ago if the CoP vs CoPLite sim report were Patchwerk sim. If it's Patchwerk, it didn't say much. CoP was ahead of CoP Lite in Patchwerk by the same amount of DPS even before the 10% buff to MSpike and Flay. If CoPLite still pull ahead on single target with movement, or 2 targets / 3 targets fight, we would be going for CoPLite anyway.

Has anyone found a fight yet where CoP didn't pull ahead? I ran Highmaul tonight on t17 gear, and it's a CoPfest. I tried running AS for Brackenspore, I had almost 1k less dps than with CoP lite with crit on nearly every non-tier piece.

Not in Highmaul Normal, not enough adds up at a time long enough for AS to pull ahead and VEnt is just bad right now.

[Annesh]

Has anyone found a fight yet where CoP didn't pull ahead? I ran Highmaul tonight on t17 gear, and it's a CoPfest. I tried running AS for Brackenspore, I had almost 1k less dps than with CoP lite with crit on nearly every non-tier piece.

Also, DoTs suck big time. SW:Wet Noodle.

And Mind Sear sucks even worse. Not even Mind Tickle. Honestly every time I cast Mind Sear there's this voice in my head saying "Why even bother?"

But yep, on single target we're kind of ok.

Good Single-target
Good Cleave
Good AoE

Pick Two.

...Unless you're a warrior or mage, then you can have all three.

And unless you're an spriest, in which case you can only have one.

(Please don't take this as whining too badly, I'm looking forward to wod... this kinda thing just bugs me, these double-standards)

[Deleted]

Good Single-target
Good Cleave
Good AoE

Pick Two.

...Unless you're a warrior or mage, then you can have all three.

And unless you're an spriest, in which case you can only have one.

(Please don't take this as whining too badly, I'm looking forward to wod... this kinda thing just bugs me, these double-standards)

There is always 1 class that is lowest on dps, no matter how balanced it is. As long as the differences aren't too big and it's not the same class on top on every boss it's going to be fine.
Difference between us and nr 1 now is 17% in patchwerk simcraft. Priests are balanced around multiple targets and movement and ww monk is probably going to be nerfed a little. No worries.

[Dierdre]

There is always 1 class that is lowest on dps, no matter how balanced it is. As long as the differences aren't too big and it's not the same class on top on every boss it's going to be fine.

Mages can currently top on every single fight. And we can't beat mages nor warriors unless they play badly.

Priests are balanced around multiple targets and movement

Not really. Our DoTs are currently more than underwhelming and the bulk of our damage comes from MB-DP (i.e. single target). CoP lite did feel great for movement though. You won't top, but it feels great; I really liked the Twin Ogron fight dancing around with all the fire and not wasting a single GCD while moving.