Heartstrike - He Gone.

[Aezral]

Our rotation is NOT being simplified. Its getting MORE complex. How do people not get this?
Our ST and AoE rotation already are the same. The only difference is that on ST you use your blood runes for HS (which a lot of dks don't even do anymore, they use BB even on ST) and on AoE for BB. Your rotation stays exactly the same.
Snapshoting was a mechanic that wasn't very intuitive, relied heavily on rng so it could screw you over pretty bad, and was disliked by a lot of players. The only reason blood dks even did it was because our rotation was so simple we had litterally nothing else to do. This is getting addressed in WoD, with the changes to SoB, DC and RT.

when do you put any thought into using HS? you use it in the rare situation where you are not RP capped, can't DS (delaying it or no free runes), and are only tanking one mob. Also, it's not getting removed. Pest REPLACES it, meaning that in every situation you use HS now you will use Pest instead.
The longer DS window does make things easier, but was neccessary because our defenses are so reactive we got screwed by certain boss mechanics numerous times. To compensate for this small simplification, we got the changes to SoB, DC and RT, which will require more thought than watching an addon telling you when to DS (provided you even time DS, most of the time you can go perfectly well with spamming it)

He's right. Our survival is becoming loads more interesting than DS being our only go-to for active mitigation.

But our actual combat remains lackluster. Rather than fixing HS to be better than pest for 1-3 targets, depending on how many it hits, we get to use our aoe move. Yayyyy

Hunters shots should all be multi shots, because we don't want to have to give them an aoe ability that is it's own button, that would be too complicated.


In seriousness, they need to trust us as players to be able to handle using 1 button for st and cleave, and another button for aoe. Give both abilities SoB, and scale HS to be better than low target # pest.
Other classes have that choice. If you say we don't need it, then Destro locks should just have baseline Fire and Brimstone.then they will have just as much lack of control when it would come to focusing 1 or 2 mobs.

[Deleted]

Your an idiot Blood worms have blood in the name and drink the blood of enemies so that's a retarded thing to start with bloodboil boils the blood of enemies we used to drain blood with mark of blood. Blood tap give life....life and blood are the same really Blood has always been about blood magic. Sorry but its like em taking arcane missiles and arcane blast from arcane mages and giving em fireball and frost lance to replace them its full retard.

First of, ad hominem.
Second, you accidentally put your personal insults in my quote, please change that.

For your actual argument:
Blood worms are leeches, they drink blood. We don't do anything blood magic related there, we summon a bunch of corpse worms (they used to require you to kill the target in order to spawn), and corpse worms sound pretty unholy to me.
Blood boil, as I said, used to erupt diseases, causing the blood to boil. They left that out of the tooltip when they changed BB to no longer require diseases on the target. Without that portion, BB can be seen as both blood magic as well as unholy magic. However, since blizzard explicitly stated that blood dks don't use blood magic, it's obviously the latter.
Mark of Blood has absolutley nothing to do with blood, despite the name. It was a "curse" (lore wise, not gameplay wise) to cause the enemys attacks to heal their target. Not a single drop of blood shed anywhere in relation to the spell itself.
Blood tap did not give life, it took life in exchange for runes. While it's name implies that you actually sacrifice blood, instead it's a unholy spell draining your life energy to empower a rune. And life energy and blood are nowhere the same. Look at Death Siphon, definatley doesn't drain blood from your enemy.

Your comparison to mages is not applicable, since arcane, frost and fire are actually different schools of magic. A better comparison would be taking a affliction warlocks malefic grasp and agony and replacing them with shadowbolt and doom. Which oddly enough once was the case.

- - - Updated - - -

But our actual combat remains lackluster. Rather than fixing HS to be better than pest for 1-3 targets, depending on how many it hits, we get to use our aoe move. Yayyyy

Hunters shots should all be multi shots, because we don't want to have to give them an aoe ability that is it's own button, that would be too complicated.


In seriousness, they need to trust us as players to be able to handle using 1 button for st and cleave, and another button for aoe. Give both abilities SoB, and scale HS to be better than low target # pest.
Other classes have that choice. If you say we don't need it, then Destro locks should just have baseline Fire and Brimstone.then they will have just as much lack of control when it would come to focusing 1 or 2 mobs.

That's an extreme exaggeration. For us, HS accounts for about 5% of our damage. Replacing that with Pest is minimal.
Your ideas for "comparable" changes would turn almost 100% of their spells into AoE, so it isn't even remotely possible to balance that against other specs.
In cases where you don't want to aoe, you still can use SR, even above 35%, so you are only using about 3% of your damage.

[Aezral]

That's an extreme exaggeration. For us, HS accounts for about 5% of our damage. Replacing that with Pest is minimal.
Your ideas for "comparable" changes would turn almost 100% of their spells into AoE, so it isn't even remotely possible to balance that against other specs.
In cases where you don't want to aoe, you still can use SR, even above 35%, so you are only using about 3% of your damage.

You keep ignoring that for HS to be a viable against pest, even with SoB, it's damage needs to be strong enough where under a certain amount of targets, HS>pest in every way. Which is something I have said numerous times. All HS needs to be is better than pest in damage unless AoE.

Assuming damage ratios stay the same, there is no reason to reintroduce HS, unless it's damage and functionality is buffed. Having that choice made for you because blizz decides to not bother tuning and redesigning makes for less interesting Gameplay

[Deleted]

You keep ignoring that for HS to be a viable against pest, even with SoB, it's damage needs to be strong enough where under a certain amount of targets, HS>pest in every way. Which is something I have said numerous times. All HS needs to be is better than pest in damage unless AoE.

Assuming damage ratios stay the same, there is no reason to reintroduce HS, unless it's damage and functionality is buffed. Having that choice made for you because blizz decides to not bother tuning and redesigning makes for less interesting Gameplay

And you keep ignoring that our gameplay gets way more interesting already. Introducing a further new mechanic just to keep HS is unneccessary.
If you don't introduce a new mechanic but simply buff it's damage, then what have you gained?
Nothing, actually. You managed to keep a generic strike without flavor, which will continue to use up our keybinds. Good job.
Having HS perform the exact same purpose as Pest makes no sense. You simply push one button for 1-2 targets, and the other for 3+. There is no gameplayvalue there.

[Aezral]

And you keep ignoring that our gameplay gets way more interesting already. Introducing a further new mechanic just to keep HS is unneccessary.
If you don't introduce a new mechanic but simply buff it's damage, then what have you gained?
Nothing, actually. You managed to keep a generic strike without flavor, which will continue to use up our keybinds. Good job.
Having HS perform the exact same purpose as Pest makes no sense. You simply push one button for 1-2 targets, and the other for 3+. There is no gameplayvalue there.

You can say that about any class that's aoe is different than single target. If you're so worried about #of key binds, why not go frost DK, or arcane Mage this exp? They only have a couple. Might be easier

[Deleted]

You can say that about any class that's aoe is different than single target. If you're so worried about #of key binds, why not go frost DK, or arcane Mage this exp? They only have a couple. Might be easier

That is hardly true for every class. For some it is (palas), for others it would make no sense (rogue ST FoK spam is silly). A lot of classes don't even use similar mechanics for ST or AoE (mages).
And your argument that if blood dks (TANKS) have to many keybinds I should go frost dk or arcane mage (DPS) makes absolutely no sense.
Also works in reverse, if you think blood has not enough keybinds, why not go monk or warrior?

[Aezral]

That is hardly true for every class. For some it is (palas), for others it would make no sense (rogue ST FoK spam is silly). A lot of classes don't even use similar mechanics for ST or AoE (mages).
And your argument that if blood dks (TANKS) have to many keybinds I should go frost dk or arcane mage (DPS) makes absolutely no sense.
Also works in reverse, if you think blood has not enough keybinds, why not go monk or warrior?

Because I love blood and it's changes to its survival. But in a time where tank's combat performance is important, having slightly more depth to the actual combat of the spec is welcome. It's like, why do monks get breath of fire? It's purely offensive, why spend the chi when you can blackout kick? If you have enough shuffle to keep you alive, then that option of BoF in an aoe situation to pump out a bit of extra damage makes sense. BoF provides no survival.

If HS gave you SoB stacks for what it hits, then in an aoe situation, you have the option of deciding if you want to sacrifice some survival with HS, or decide to go full on Pest for an aoe pack if you're not worried about slight loss of self healing.

That's a gameplay decision. Adds depth, especially in this age of tank damage mattering. Blizzard said they want to preserve that mindset going forward. There's nothing wrong with expanding the depth of tank combat, as well as survivability. With vengeance gone, damage can be balanced for those situations.

[Deleted]

If HS gave you SoB stacks for what it hits, then in an aoe situation, you have the option of deciding if you want to sacrifice some survival with HS, or decide to go full on Pest for an aoe pack if you're not worried about slight loss of self healing.

That's a gameplay decision. Adds depth, especially in this age of tank damage mattering. Blizzard said they want to preserve that mindset going forward. There's nothing wrong with expanding the depth of tank combat, as well as survivability. With vengeance gone, damage can be balanced for those situations.

Hm yeah I can see that point. Actually, I think I would prefer that to having HS removed.

[Ellondra]

If HS gave you SoB stacks for what it hits, then in an aoe situation, you have the option of deciding if you want to sacrifice some survival with HS, or decide to go full on Pest for an aoe pack if you're not worried about slight loss of self healing.

That's a gameplay decision. Adds depth, especially in this age of tank damage mattering. Blizzard said they want to preserve that mindset going forward. There's nothing wrong with expanding the depth of tank combat, as well as survivability. With vengeance gone, damage can be balanced for those situations.

This should really happen. It's not a huge decision but it is something to think about, which I would much prefer to just spamming the same three buttons.

[Deleted]

Bleh.
I actually liked the need to switch between BB and HS depending on single-target vs. AoE.
Same with using stronger RuneStrike when in melee vs. much weaker DC when forced to range and expecting to need to DS soon.
Hello, TBC mage rotation, long time no see.

[Schizoide]

I guess you guys talking about 3 buttons haven't played Blood before or are exaggerating for effect. There will be quite a few more, even in the primary priority.

Outbreak
Icy Touch - still needs to be keybound in case Outbreak is on cooldown and streaming adds
Plague Strike - ditto to IT
Death Strike (use UF runes)
Pestilence (use blood runes)
Death Coil (use RP)
Death and Decay (AE)
Rune Tap (primary priority now)

So we've got 8 primary priority keybinds right there. Then you have all the cooldowns

AMS
Army
Bone Shield
Dancing Rune Weapon
Emp Rune Weapon
IB Fortitude
Vamp Blood
Soul Reaper (put here because it certainly isn't primary)
Dark Simulacrum
L58 talents (if you pick Death's Advance, which you probably will)
L75 healing talents
L90 utility talents
L100 AE talents (all have tanking advantages)

That's another 13 keybinds from talents. Not primary priority, but you need to keybind these. OK, you can get away without Dark Sim and Soul Reaper, but you get my meaning.

So lets stop the "OMG 3 buttons" QQ, please. Blood is losing one keybind, but it's not exactly mastersimple.

[DarthMetatron]

What's become pretty clear to me is how much of a bastardized spec Blood has become since it was transformed into the tanking spec. I, for one, was fine with Frost being the tank spec, it did make sense for ice being a tank theme, but I understand the Blood = HP for a new tank theme. Although, I didn't necessarily agree with it being that I loved Blood DPS so much in WotLK.

All we have left of the glory days of Blood are remnant abilities of a DPS spec that some of us original DKs still hold near and dear to our heart. Now that they are being removed from the game, it's hard to let go. Kind of like when your new GF made you throw away all the pictures you had of your old GFs. You know what I'm talking about.

It's so hard...to say goodbyyyyye...to yesterdayyyyyyyyEEEEEEEE...
RIP Blood, I will always remember you as you once were.

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I guess you guys talking about 3 buttons haven't played Blood before or are exaggerating for effect. There will be quite a few more, even in the primary priority.

Outbreak
Icy Touch - still needs to be keybound in case Outbreak is on cooldown and streaming adds
Plague Strike - ditto to IT
Death Strike (use UF runes)
Pestilence (use blood runes)
Death Coil (use RP)
Death and Decay (AE)
Rune Tap (primary priority now)

So we've got 8 primary priority keybinds right there. Then you have all the cooldowns

AMS
Army
Bone Shield
Dancing Rune Weapon
Emp Rune Weapon
IB Fortitude
Vamp Blood
Soul Reaper (put here because it certainly isn't primary)
Dark Simulacrum
L58 talents (if you pick Death's Advance, which you probably will)
L75 healing talents
L90 utility talents
L100 AE talents (all have tanking advantages)

That's another 13 keybinds from talents. Not primary priority, but you need to keybind these. OK, you can get away without Dark Sim and Soul Reaper, but you get my meaning.

So lets stop the "OMG 3 buttons" QQ, please. Blood is losing one keybind, but it's not exactly mastersimple.

Ehhhhh, I wouldn't go THAT far.

You are confusing Priority with Cool Downs, yes Outbreak and RT are CDs.

Cool Downs are NOT part of your Priority and are to be used ONLY when needed.
Priority speaks to your abilities which you will use under any circumstance to use your resources (Runes/RP) so that they can regenerate and therefore not be wasted.

Debatable: IT/PS (rarely used in 99% of the time unless you're being bad and can't keep Outbreak rolling)

3 button priority:
Death Strike
Pestilence
Death Coil

[Schizoide]

You are confusing Priority with Cool Downs, yes Outbreak and RT are CDs.

Rune Tap has a 30s cooldown with 2 charges. Outbreak and Death and Decay are used in the primary priority. "Use when needed" is the definition of a priority. You can twist the definition however you like, but anyone calling 6.0 rune tap a cooldown when it's actually a major component of active mitigation in WoD is working against an agenda rather than being even handed.

[DarthMetatron]

You're making that definition up to fit your argument.

That is definitely not the definition of priority.

By your definition, we only use Pestilence when dots are about to expire, or do we even need dots at all? Hell sticking with your argument, if we have agro we don't even need to use Pestilence or Death Coil. We could just sit on Death Strike too if the healers are keeping up.

It's a slippery slope when you start calling everything "as needed".

[Schizoide]

If you can show me the tablets inscribed by Jehovah defining "primary priority", I will follow your definition. Until then, I will follow my own, which I hold to much more reasonable than yours. But of course both are subjective.

[Raugnaut]

My problem with the Blood changes, is that blood, like unholy, is slowly turning into a Death Mage, rather than a Death Knight. Blood will have one melee ability and auto attack. Regardless of how these changes affect spec performance....and I do like the additional active mitigation abilities, I have no desire to play a caster and to me it FEELS like they are turning blood into primarily a spell-caster.

Blood has 2, not 1, melee abilities- Death Strike, and Soul Reaper.

If I remember correctly based on tweets, Pestilece, next expansion, will have the animation of Roiling Blood- Blood Boil burst, followed by a Pestilence disease spread.

DKs original design intent was 33% melee 66% spells. Blood is pretty much there, with 1 primary melee spender (Death Strike) and 2 primary spell spenders (Pestilence, Death Coil).

The thing I am more worried about with these changes, which have NOT been mentioned in the thread yet, will be that Blood DKs will be more vulnerable to silences then they are now, which will be an issue with soloing certain fights. ATM, we are only unable to use AoE abilities if we are silenced, as well as most of our CDs. Next expansion, we will ONLY be able to use Death Strike and Soul Reaper when silenced, with almost all of our abilities, including a number of cooldowns, unable to be used while silenced. I feel that Blood DKs should have a passive that either A) prevents us from being silenced, or B) causes silence effects to only affect a very few abilities.

[Schizoide]

With another ten levels and the solo buff from the item squish, my guess is the silences won't be much of a problem. I can't recall too many past TBC, although I'm not a hardcore soloer myself.

In PvP silences (and disarms) are being largely removed, so it won't be a huge issue there.

[jimbojonez]

Blizzard keep removing skills just for the sake of removing some

I think they just keep changing skills for the sake of changing.

[Deleted]

yes Outbreak and RT are CDs.
Cool Downs are NOT part of your Priority and are to be used ONLY when needed.

RT is no more of a cd than guard (less, since it only got 20s cd and 2 charges), which is advised to be used rotationally unless there are certain mechanics that only occur less than 30s and deal a lot of damage, which is considerably rare.
Also, if 20s is enough to be called a cd, then apparently Colossus Smash is also a cd

Priority speaks to your abilities which you will use under any circumstance to use

By that definition, blood will no longer have any abilities in its priority. DS should be delayed to cope with incoming damage, RP for DC should be stacked for damage spikes. Pest should be used to increase DS, but most of the time, while you can use death runes on it, Pest should not be your go to ability to use them.

3 button priority:
Death Strike
Pestilence
Death Coil

Also SR, why does everyone keep forgetting SR?

I think they just keep changing skills for the sake of changing.

Even if they were (which they aren't, they are changing things to adress all the problems blood dks had), what would be the problem? Most people view changes as something exciting, and I know a lot of dks who were sad there were no changes for MoP. Frost dks are complaining right now that there are not enough changes.

[DarthMetatron]

By that definition, blood will no longer have any abilities in its priority. DS should be delayed to cope with incoming damage, RP for DC should be stacked for damage spikes. Pest should be used to increase DS, but most of the time, while you can use death runes on it, Pest should not be your go to ability to use them.

So what we're saying is that Blood no longer has a priority. I can agree with that. It is a huge web of wonk.

Also SR, why does everyone keep forgetting SR?

I don't refer to the execute phase of a fight when referring to standard priority.

Although, now with the new revelation, SR below 35% may be the only real priority we have left.

Maybe this was the intention all along?