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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    The flaw with comparing the damage per cast over an entire raid night is that Kill Shot is only used under 20% whereas Explosive Shot is used for the whole fight so it's average damage per cast is going to be massively inflated due to proc/buff stacking which generally doesn't happen too much during the execute phase, in comparison to the insane increase during the opener with double trinkets and Skull Banners.

    Feel free to go compare average ES damage per cast while a boss is below 20% to average kill shot damage.

    tl;dr your reasoning is still shit.
    Yea, no. You also fire off a ton more ES while not under procs, bringing the average down. But if you chose to believe so, feel free man.
    Just to prove you wrong, here's the damage from KS/ES on Juggernaut sub-20% in the above log:
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...83&end=3807650

    12 ES for 4.63M dmg, or 386K per.
    8 KS for 2.83M dmg, or 353K per.

    Here's Malkorok:
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...73&end=5863649

    16 ES for 5.34M dmg, or 334K per.
    8 Kill shots for 2.35M dmg, or 294K per.

    Here's Thok:
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...35&end=7658130
    21 ES for 8.25M, or 393K per.
    10 Kill shots for 3.28M, or 320K per.

    Here's Sha of Pride:
    http://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/...36&end=2456354
    12 ES for 4.14M dmg, or 345K per.
    10 Kill Shots for 3.15M dmg, or 315K per.

    The list goes on. Instead of talking shit, you should probably stick to your boomkin and actually look into stuff before you start blabbering on <.<.

  2. #42

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by LolkinEU View Post
    Draco goin ham
    HAM SON

    hi lolkin pls boost my proraider ranks

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    -snip-
    I was expecting looking at execute range only to have a larger impact on the damage comparison but I guess not. In that case you're also not considering that KS is fired off 2 at a time, so if prioritizing one over the other means getting an extra use of it per fight then you're now looking at the extra KS doing near double the damage of 1 explosive shot CD.

    In reality the only thing that would push 1 ahead of the other is getting an extra use of either per boss fight which is impossible to know beforehand so you either make your decision based on either:
    • One extra KS cooldown would do more damage than one extra ES but has a longer cooldown and is less likely to happen; or
    • One extra ES cooldown does less damage than a KS cooldown but has a higher chance of actually happening due to the shorter cooldown.

    Also don't forget that some of the ES damage could be lost if the boss dies while it's still ticking.

    Honestly I really don't care, If you feel you need to take shots at me for whatever reason then you're horribly mistaken about what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, I'm trying to say that you're wrong to try and justify one being better than the other.
    Last edited by Glurp; 2014-05-25 at 06:10 PM.

  5. #45
    Sorry if offtopic but do Simulations accurately reflect the KS 2nd shot cast delay of @IRL?
    Capitalism, Ho!

  6. #46
    What delay? It's under 1 second on everything but Immerseus. It doesn't matter. And it won't lose you one over the fight duration anyway.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    I was expecting looking at execute range only to have a larger impact on the damage comparison but I guess not. In that case you're also not considering that KS is fired off 2 at a time, so if prioritizing one over the other means getting an extra use of it per fight then you're now looking at the extra KS doing near double the damage of 1 explosive shot CD.

    In reality the only thing that would push 1 ahead of the other is getting an extra use of either per boss fight which is impossible to know beforehand so you either make your decision based on either:
    • One extra KS cooldown would do more damage than one extra ES but has a longer cooldown and is less likely to happen; or

    • One extra ES cooldown does less damage than a KS cooldown but has a higher chance of actually happening due to the shorter cooldown.

    Also don't forget that some of the ES damage could be lost if the boss dies while it's still ticking.

    Honestly I really don't care, If you feel you need to take shots at me for whatever reason then you're horribly mistaken about what I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to say that you're wrong, I'm trying to say that you're wrong to try and justify one being better than the other.

    The fact that kill shots are fired off in pairs doesn't matter. So is lock and load explosive shots (minimum 2 charges, remember?).
    It's a very, very simple question really:
    If both shots are free, which one will on average do more damage?
    Answer: Explosive shot.
    Which shot do you want to fire first in that case?
    Answer: Explosive shot.

    The main reason that there's such a small difference between prioritizing ES over KS is because in the end, they are both exchanged for Arcane shots/cobra shots. It doesn't matter when you fire them, unless (as you said yourself), you lose out on a shot in the end. But in a case of what's the stronger shot? Explosive shot wins hands down every time, and it makes sense to try and get more ES off than Kill shots (if the situation should arise).

    And I only bite when people take shots at me to start with. If you can't handle being told off, don't start. Easy solution.

  8. #48
    Well one small thing to consider is also the fact that KS scales with WDPS and ES with AP, possibly leading to situations that change that ES > KS.
    e.g. if you have a weapon ilvl which is much higher than your average gear, KS will hit relativly harder.
    On the other hand ES gets much more benefit from agi trinket proccs, therefore during AoC/TED proccs ES will be clearly better than KS.

    And don't forget this is only talking about the free ES from LnL... the last ES costs 25 focos, therefore losing ground on KS.
    Does that mean one should go: ES, ES, KS, KS, ES ?
    Would be best dmg/focus ratio, but also best dps? that option has the disatvantage of delaying the shots longer...

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Dracodraco View Post
    The fact that kill shots are fired off in pairs doesn't matter. So is lock and load explosive shots (minimum 2 charges, remember?).
    It's a very, very simple question really:
    If both shots are free, which one will on average do more damage?
    Answer: Explosive shot.
    Which shot do you want to fire first in that case?
    Answer: Explosive shot.

    The main reason that there's such a small difference between prioritizing ES over KS is because in the end, they are both exchanged for Arcane shots/cobra shots. It doesn't matter when you fire them, unless (as you said yourself), you lose out on a shot in the end. But in a case of what's the stronger shot? Explosive shot wins hands down every time, and it makes sense to try and get more ES off than Kill shots (if the situation should arise).

    And I only bite when people take shots at me to start with. If you can't handle being told off, don't start. Easy solution.
    You are working on the presumption that, because cost is equal, DPET becomes the biggest deciding factor. It's certainly a good starting point, but there are many other important things to consider. For example, delaying a L&L will often not lose you any ES casts, however, pushing KS to the back of an ES-chain has a reasonable likelihood of losing you a KS or two.

    Here is an interesting picture for you. Four sims, all 5 minutes long +-20%, with 250k iterations. To magnify the impact of spell selection, the full sims take place in execute range.

    L&L > KS > ES


    ES > KS


    KS > ES


    ES > KS > L&L



    So, is there an optimal way to perform here? Sure. But if the potential gain is equal to the square root of fuck-all, it probably doesn't warrant a great deal of our attention.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    Looking at average ES damage in logs simply doesn't work because of how the damage rolls into the next one when fired back to back. You simply cannot value the damage of a DoT based on average ticks, especially not one which rolls damage when clipped.
    Draco has already posted a ton on the subject, but I'd just like to add: Warcraftlogs can differentiate the actual ES hit from its ticks. Just hover over the spell/ability, and you'll get a 4 list breakdown into hits, ticks, crits and tick crits. I was only looking at "hits" on the posted numbers.
    Last edited by Beace; 2014-05-26 at 03:31 AM.

  11. #51
    Just weave it in between shots o_o


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  12. #52
    Mechagnome Ryas's Avatar
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    I usually weave it in between unless I am on such a nice string of Explosive Shots that I just want to keep it rolling.

  13. #53
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    This is why its a good thing they are taking kill shot away from survival come WoD, this argument will be over forever!! only 6 more months.

    kissthebaby#1726

  14. #54
    Mechagnome Ryas's Avatar
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    Next Set of Alpha Notes:

    "Kill Shot has been given back to Survival Hunters"

    Dammit!

  15. #55
    The really ironic thing is, all that discussion is almost pointless since the entire spec is based on an RNG proc.

  16. #56
    It begins.
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  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Raicky View Post
    The really ironic thing is, all that discussion is almost pointless since the entire spec is based on an RNG proc.
    All bad RNG means is not enough things were sacrificed before the pull. It took a giraffe for Devah to get 50% vicious uptime on IJ so I guess for the more average player half a continent or so?

    Hunters be gettin crimson tempest

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissthebaby View Post
    This is why its a good thing they are taking kill shot away from survival come WoD, this argument will be over forever!! only 6 more months.
    /care anymore I've joined the dark side

  19. #59
    The BM kool aid too stronk.

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