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  1. #41
    yes, it needs to go.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by bio347 View Post
    A recent tweet by Celestalon: "Different classes are different. Not every class needs free passive damage reduction (which you do have anyway: Shields)". He's talking about the shaman Lightning Shield glyph, but as a statement of philosophy you could easily rewrite it to read "Different classes are different. Not every class needs to apply their raid debuffs automagically."

    Not that that will stop everyone who is offended by the very existence of CoE from hating it, but whatchagonnado?
    That is simply a poor excuse.
    It does not imo bring anything special with its manual application that necessitates its continued application in such a way.
    Hunter's Mark acts as a preventative of stealth, and does not pull aggro. That I feel is an example of how to make it interesting applied manually.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  3. #43
    Yes, IMO it should either be cut or curses should become actual gameplay elements you interact with rather than passive debuffs that last for ages.

    It's seriously the top of my list for bloat, was baffled that they kept it. I guess cutting it would be the end of curses, but hey - they're not doing anything interesting with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Netherspark View Post
    Curse of Elements is the only AOE version of the magic taken debuff in the game, it also has thematic value as one of our last remaining curses/debuffs.

    It is not 'button bloat'.
    I disagree. It's something you set and forget, unless there's adds in which case you have to apply it to all of them.

    The magic damage taken debuff should either be passive or better yet gone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    That is simply a poor excuse.
    It does not imo bring anything special with its manual application that necessitates its continued application in such a way.
    Hunter's Mark acts as a preventative of stealth, and does not pull aggro. That I feel is an example of how to make it interesting applied manually.
    Hunter's Mark is also sheer bloat and for that reason it's being cut in WoD too. In PVE it's a passive debuff you apply without thinking and barely even have to maintain, a button for the sake of a button, which provides a buff that only affects Hunters and you would never be without. In PVP it's excessive BS considering Hunters already have about 4 ways to prevent stealth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    The magic damage taken debuff should either be passive or better yet gone.
    I agree.
    I even suggested that a while back, that all those debuffs should be outright removed, and the percentage of benefit simply baked into all classes by default.
    It would allow even more flexibility when it comes to a roster, more opportunity to bring the player and not a small number of classes needed to provide a certain debuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Bonkura View Post
    MMO's are pretty much dead besides WoW so I think it's fair to compare the game to MOBA's.
    Adventure games are dead so from now on I'll be comparing Monkey Island to CoD.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ComputerNerd View Post
    I agree.
    I even suggested that a while back, that all those debuffs should be outright removed, and the percentage of benefit simply baked into all classes by default.
    It would allow even more flexibility when it comes to a roster, more opportunity to bring the player and not a small number of classes needed to provide a certain buff.
    I think that the reason they exist is to encourage diversity and discourage class stacking, however I think the current 8 buffs are sufficient for this and the raid debuffs are just annoying clutter. If Blizzard feels the class benefits are too low, just add a buff and remove all the raid debuffs. It's also better in that you have the convenient x/8 raid buff tracker to make sure you have all the ones you need but you have to check the debuffs manually.

    Though I think they're reducing the 8 to 6 or so in WoD IIRC. Forget the details.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  6. #46
    100% agree, curse of elements is bloat.

    It had its place back in the day when we had many curses and a 1 curse limitation. Now there in wod there will be no limitation and only 1 curse (2 if afflic).

    It is no longer a curse, it is a generic debuff that takes up a button slot. A button you press maybe once every 5 min, and makes you require an addon to keep track of something you would otherwise forget due to how infrequently you need to apply it.

    It should be made passive simply because keeping it as a button adds nothing to game play. Hell for most raids its superfluous other classes provide the same debuff more easily (the aoe component is such a minor benefit due to most encounter design)

    It would be nice if the overhaul curses and brought them into the modern era, but as they have already cut all other curses and seem unwilling to overhaul locks again, they should just cut CoE instead of keeping it as an arbitrary relic of our previous curse based play style. (Which evaporated largely since the start of wrath)

  7. #47
    I'm surprised people would so easily cut one of the iconic things that make a Warlock a Warlock. Curses and Drains, that's what teh class flavour has been since forever. We nearly lost all the Drains apart from Drain Life till Blizzard realised that Drain Soul needed to stay, and now we'd voluntarily do away with Curses as well? I'm pretty appalled. There's more to a class then the technical aspects of button bloat and buff/debuff balance between all the classes. I'm MORE then happy to have a button for Curse of the Elements if that means I'm still a cursing and draining Warlock.

    I also feel there's a nice bit of game play in CoE. There's benefits to having it manually applied, and the fact we now have an AoE version of it only makes it even better. That's tiny stuff that makes bringing a Warlock a benefit, even if it is only in niche situations where the Warlock dies and his debuff stays, or the fact you don't have to send in a Rogue to FoK the adds when a Warlock can just do it from across the room.

    Curses are fine as they are, and I hope Blizzard sticks with them to the bitter end.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    I'm surprised people would so easily cut one of the iconic things that make a Warlock a Warlock. Curses and Drains, that's what teh class flavour has been since forever.
    There's no point keeping it in the game because it's iconic when it no longer has any gameplay value (if it ever did).

    Curses just haven't worked out as a concept. If they want to do service to the idea of Warlocks as a class that uses curses, then make it interactive and an important part of at least one spec's rotation. As it is it's a button that says "yes I'd like to kill this boss now" that you fire and forget.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  9. #49
    I would agree if we actually had curses. We lost nearly all of them since vanilla and no new ones have been added.

    Removing CoE now would not be eliminating curse play. It would simply be removing the tombstone that marks where Cata/MoP/Wrath killed curses.

    Once upon a time we had a arsenal of curses mutually exclusive with one another than had a variety of purposes. Giving us a pseudo debuffer class vibe (of course like all things in vanilla it was poorly implemented; like the 8 debuff limit for most of vanilla, and later overriding debuffs from other classes)

    We had curse of recklessness to reduce armor which stacked with sunder (If I remember right)
    and it could be used to fear kite by suppressing the fear if the mob got to close to other so as to prevent accidental pulls.

    We had Curse of Doom for mobs that would live long enough for the one tick, and could spawn a doom guard if it landed the KB.

    Agony was once a curse and our default damage curse if other curses were handled by other locks.

    We had Curse of Elements and Shadows which reduced mobs resistances. Something very useful in earlier wow before they were changed to generic damage increase that did not stack with other classes generic damage increase debuffs.

    We had curse of tongues which vastly slowed cast time of enemies. Between nerfs and making it not work on most bosses as well as giving a large number of other classes similar abilities it lost its usefulness before being merged with Curse of weakness and ultimately removed in WoD.

    We had Curse of weakness which reduced the damage an enemy dealt in melee, changing from attack power debuff to melee damage reduction, and eventually into a generic phys dmg debuff that did not stack with automatically applied tank debuffs it soon became only useful pvp and pve soloing. It is also being removed in WoD and if we had to chose a curse to save this would have been it.

    Finally curse of exhaustion, exclusive to Affliction reduced movement speed, frequently changing from mediocre to crippling it remains a useful ability. However with removal of other curses and lack of exclusivity with CoE it will become little more than a generic slow in WoD.

    All of our curses have been removed or neutered to the point where they no longer resemble the curse system we originally had in vanilla. We haven't been debuffers any more than another class for along time.

    Keeping CoE for nostalgia isn't really worth it, it adds nothing to game play except unnecessary tedium (A maintenance spell you cast 2-3 times per combat?)

    I would enjoy if blizzard were to reinvigorate curse play for warlocks, but an overhaul is unlikely so I would rather they just remove CoE to keep design space open for future Expacs.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    I'm surprised people would so easily cut one of the iconic things that make a Warlock a Warlock. Curses and Drains, that's what teh class flavour has been since forever. We nearly lost all the Drains apart from Drain Life till Blizzard realised that Drain Soul needed to stay, and now we'd voluntarily do away with Curses as well? I'm pretty appalled. There's more to a class then the technical aspects of button bloat and buff/debuff balance between all the classes. I'm MORE then happy to have a button for Curse of the Elements if that means I'm still a cursing and draining Warlock.

    I also feel there's a nice bit of game play in CoE. There's benefits to having it manually applied, and the fact we now have an AoE version of it only makes it even better. That's tiny stuff that makes bringing a Warlock a benefit, even if it is only in niche situations where the Warlock dies and his debuff stays, or the fact you don't have to send in a Rogue to FoK the adds when a Warlock can just do it from across the room.

    Curses are fine as they are, and I hope Blizzard sticks with them to the bitter end.
    Let's not all get sentimental here. Remember Spellstones and Firestones? Who cares.

    Rogues and Boomies used to apply it passively. Now Spriests can apply instead of Boomies in WOD. Just another spell I won't touch for another expansion.
    Cabana Pie Chart US 10th Twitch

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Nazmina View Post
    I would agree if we actually had curses. We lost nearly all of them since vanilla and no new ones have been added.

    Removing CoE now would not be eliminating curse play. It would simply be removing the tombstone that marks where Cata/MoP/Wrath killed curses.

    Once upon a time we had a arsenal of curses mutually exclusive with one another than had a variety of purposes. Giving us a pseudo debuffer class vibe (of course like all things in vanilla it was poorly implemented; like the 8 debuff limit for most of vanilla, and later overriding debuffs from other classes)

    We had curse of recklessness to reduce armor which stacked with sunder (If I remember right)
    and it could be used to fear kite by suppressing the fear if the mob got to close to other so as to prevent accidental pulls.

    We had Curse of Doom for mobs that would live long enough for the one tick, and could spawn a doom guard if it landed the KB.

    Agony was once a curse and our default damage curse if other curses were handled by other locks.

    We had Curse of Elements and Shadows which reduced mobs resistances. Something very useful in earlier wow before they were changed to generic damage increase that did not stack with other classes generic damage increase debuffs.

    We had curse of tongues which vastly slowed cast time of enemies. Between nerfs and making it not work on most bosses as well as giving a large number of other classes similar abilities it lost its usefulness before being merged with Curse of weakness and ultimately removed in WoD.

    We had Curse of weakness which reduced the damage an enemy dealt in melee, changing from attack power debuff to melee damage reduction, and eventually into a generic phys dmg debuff that did not stack with automatically applied tank debuffs it soon became only useful pvp and pve soloing. It is also being removed in WoD and if we had to chose a curse to save this would have been it.

    Finally curse of exhaustion, exclusive to Affliction reduced movement speed, frequently changing from mediocre to crippling it remains a useful ability. However with removal of other curses and lack of exclusivity with CoE it will become little more than a generic slow in WoD.

    All of our curses have been removed or neutered to the point where they no longer resemble the curse system we originally had in vanilla. We haven't been debuffers any more than another class for along time.

    Keeping CoE for nostalgia isn't really worth it, it adds nothing to game play except unnecessary tedium (A maintenance spell you cast 2-3 times per combat?)

    I would enjoy if blizzard were to reinvigorate curse play for warlocks, but an overhaul is unlikely so I would rather they just remove CoE to keep design space open for future Expacs.
    I forgot how many Curses we used to have, now I'm sad at how many we lost.

    Blizzard should probably do more with Curses in the future, and not cut them from the game entirely. Renaming Agony back to CURSE of Agony and Doom back to CURSE of Doom would be a good start. Then all we'd need is 1 good new spell called Curse of X, and we'd have a decent stable of Curses again.


    Ha, they should introduce a Curse of Blistering and make it something Destro can do on the move, that would solve 2 issues at once.
    AND it would mean every spec had it's own Curse.
    Your Soul Shall Suffer! ||| Forum rules ||| New England Patriots

  12. #52
    Honestly, if you find a two to three cast per fight spell tedious and boring, I'm not sure what to say. I can't imagine what you feel about MG channeling, Incinerate spam, or SB casting then.

    It's also kinda funny that CoE is pretty easily the best spell vulnerability debuff and that everyone wants to throw that out. There's no way an auto-CoE would have all of the properties of the standalone version.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by xskarma View Post
    I forgot how many Curses we used to have, now I'm sad at how many we lost.

    Blizzard should probably do more with Curses in the future, and not cut them from the game entirely. Renaming Agony back to CURSE of Agony and Doom back to CURSE of Doom would be a good start. Then all we'd need is 1 good new spell called Curse of X, and we'd have a decent stable of Curses again.


    Ha, they should introduce a Curse of Blistering and make it something Destro can do on the move, that would solve 2 issues at once.
    AND it would mean every spec had it's own Curse.
    They'd be curses largely in name only. I suppose they could for flavor, although a integral part of the curse system was exclusivity with other curses. Only being able to have 1 on a target at a time. Come WoD that won't be the case (As non aff will only have CoE and aff can stack Exhaustion with CoE)

    Of all the curses we've had CoE in its current incarnation is the least interesting. I small damage buff only noticeable in organized pvp and raid level pve. You don't use it much in the world save for elite type mobs. Even then its designed as just a standard dmg increase rather than something unique or interesting.

    If they were to bring back curses I would prefer they come back as true debuffs rather than damaging dots/ dmg increasing tools. Things that weaken your target in some way other than health damage.

    Honestly, if you find a two to three cast per fight spell tedious and boring, I'm not sure what to say. I can't imagine what you feel about MG channeling, Incinerate spam, or SB casting then.

    It's also kinda funny that CoE is pretty easily the best spell vulnerability debuff and that everyone wants to throw that out. There's no way an auto-CoE would have all of the properties of the standalone version.
    Dark soul is cast infrequently as well but is fun to cast because is significantly increases your damage and at least currently can be cast to be lined up with trinkets for maxium output (As opposed to on CD due to our class design as well as AD)

    CoE doesn't do much visually or game play wise compared to our fillers which have immediate effect. You don't even notice CoE on the target till you check the damage meter. It's pinned as a standard dmg increase debuff, if they made it into a 20 debuff styled inquisition mechanic it would be more interesting and perhaps worth using up a button/ timer. But right now it feels odd to have something other classes apply passively require us to manage.

    Its only slightly stronger, the duration, if made passive would probably be reduced to 30sec along side the other passive versions. And it's aoe functionality already exists with rogues (and WW monks in WoD) that we can apply it at range would only matter if there is an AoE pack that can't be meleed but that's pretty rare.

  14. #54
    CoE is too much "fire and forget", and with other classes who provide it passively it is even a mechanism they can forget about entirely.
    The addition of the AoE nature is simply some desperate attempt to try and keep it "interesting" for the sake of keeping it there.
    Someone has some obsession with the "debuffer" theme of a warlock, and will keep that in whatever the consequences.

    What exactly is going to be left of "curses" from warlocks anyway in WoD.

    Without the addition of more curses, then CoE is simply bloat in its planned form.
    It is nostalgia, plain and simple.
    Last edited by ComputerNerd; 2014-05-28 at 01:01 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Fincher View Post
    Ugh I hope all Buffs and Debuffs buttons which do nothing but apply a baseline buff/debuff should be made passive.
    Slice and Dice, Savage Roar, I am looking at you. Go away from my bar!

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Slice and Dice, Savage Roar, I am looking at you. Go away from my bar!
    Those aren't baseline buff/debuffs they are class specific ones that are part of a rotation integrated into a class.

    Of course you can agree or disagree if those mechanics feel good for the class and make it enjoyable.

  17. #57
    "Warlock: Curse of the Elements has been removed." - Seems Blizzard agreed after all. So much for iconic warlock spell.

  18. #58
    Glad to see it go. Best part of being in a 25 man guild is I no longer have to debuff the boss and impact my initial burst.

  19. #59
    Didn't see that coming, that they would actually go through with it.
    Glad did they though.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    I don't understand why we don't have flying so they tell us we will have convenient flight points. Immersion and danger? Here take some coins and fly me there while I read facebook or go take a poop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaerd View Post
    T'is good to see there are still people valiantly putting the "Ass" in assumption.

  20. #60
    Finally they removed it: makes no sense not to remove a debuff that is applied once per fight, but always to new adds. Not only it costs us precious gcds (in pvp that is), but it didn't make much sense when you could had just inserted it into our normal rotation (like other classes had).

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