Curse of elements - Definition of bloat?

[Deleted]

So, according to you,

you are the reason why the world is fucked... no past, no souvenir, no respect for the roots and here we are ... in the land of the lost shit memory for a zombie brain dead future.

When gameplay elements are shit, they aren't really shit.... the shit is who is creating and releasing unbalanced tools.

Devs sucks

[Narwhalosh Whalescream]

Warlocks used to be the debuffer with lots of curses and stuff... And now we have come to this?

[Deleted]

That's not what that paragraph is saying at all. It's about alienating the current playerbase to appease a nonexistant or potential playerbase that could get what they're wanting from elsewhere.

If you think removing CoE is alienating the current playerbase, then you apparently havent read this entire thread. For every person sad to see it go, another is happy about it. Propably the majority too. They arent appeasing to a potential playerbase, they are appeasing to current warlock players.

you are the reason why the world is fucked... no past, no souvenir, no respect for the roots and here we are ... in the land of the lost shit memory for a zombie brain dead future.

I'm going to assume you are joking, hoping no one is this stupid.

[Deleted]

If you think removing CoE is alienating the current playerbase, then you apparently havent read this entire thread. For every person sad to see it go, another is happy about it. Propably the majority too. They arent appeasing to a potential playerbase, they are appeasing to current warlock players.

Its not only about CoE, the revamp already brought a lot of outsiders into the class and alianated a lot of the old ones. The impact of SB:SS, revamped Haunt, introduction of MG, removal of Shadow Embrace, the trivialization of the pet gameplay... this class is already nothing like it was pre-mop.

[ReleaseDay]

What is this button bloat trend already ? Unless you can't manage more than 6-7 buttons, there's no such thing as an ability bloat...

This. So much this. Omg.

[ComputerNerd]

With smaller raid formats and increased number of classes there was less room, and often insufficient room for every "expected" debuff or raid buff to be brought along.
Therefore the same expected tools were spread out amongst other classes, so that there wasn't in many cases the need for a specific class and someone could earn their place for more than having a single button to press.
CoE suffered from the fact that in addition to others bringing it, they brought it in a more convenient format, passive application.
Therefore warlocks were offering the inferior version, which absolutely was bloat in its current incarnation.
Blizzard decided to take the drain life approach, and try to make it "interesting", through the AoE effect but not solving the real problem of others making it unnecessary and really not special any longer.
Unless CoE was going to bring something special to the effect, that others did not then it was always going to looked upon negatively by blizzard when judging bloat.

[ReleaseDay]

Warlocks used to be the debuffer with lots of curses and stuff... And now we have come to this?

I can't belive it either. And its not only a topic for warlocks, but for wow in general. People seem to be possessed by this utterly retarded idea to bloat/prune pretty much every fucking thing in the game.

[Nazmina]

Warlocks used to be the debuffer with lots of curses and stuff... And now we have come to this?

The suite of debuffs we had in Vanilla let us pay lip-service to the concept of a debuffer class. But we never really were one, WoW was never made to support a real debuffer class that wouldn't just present more problems. We had many debuffs but most of them had barely noticeable numerical effects on the targets, never really visceral or interesting. Compare it to the curses the Necro in D2 had an you'll see a difference, but WoW can't support such a gameplay style.

The problem became even more obvious in raids, there's limits to how our curses could affect bosses. They either don't work, or are accounted for when tuning the boss, making them feel less like powerful afflictions and more like a check box on a list.

As time went on the benefits provided by our curses became streamlined and divided among other classes. Not simple for the sake of homogenization, but because our debuffs had a weak core to start with. They only harkened to the interesting idea of a weakening based debuff class, but we were always just DD.

It'd be silly to say WoD is taking away our iconic abilities when we lost far more interesting curses in previous expansions. With it's interaction with fear CoR was one of our more interesting curses and we lost it in Wrath. CoE and Co(shadows) were just fairly generic damage increases wrapped up in the archaic and tedious resists system of vanilla wow. CoT was interesting but poorly utilized outside PvP as it either didn't affect most mobs (Don't cast or are immune) or the spellcast reduction didn't make a difference as the mobs spells were weak. CoW was just a generic damage decrease that only became interesting due to its affect on low dmg fast attackers back when it reduced melee damage instead of AP (and later 10% flat).

And Doom and Agony just did damage, though doom had the one interesting trait of potentially summoning a doomguard.

I like the idea of a debuff based class, but the concept was never solid in WoW. Our curses stopped being a significant part of our class a long time ago, WoD is jut burying the corpse the last 3 expansions left behind.

[Voidgazer]

valid criticism

There is no valid criticism in your post.

You want to get rid of CoE because the class you used to play has the same ability as a passive effect. Not because it contributes to this fictional button bloat, but simply because you're used to it.

Warlocks are and have always been a class based around cursing, debuffing and palcing DoT effects on your target. Class mechanics reflect the lore behind the class - warlocks are masters of various curses and afflictions and fel magic.

There are some sensible examples in that "ability pruning", like rolling a few passives into one spec-psecific passive etc. But making a signature active skill into a passive not only contributes to further homogenization of classes in the game, but confilcts with the whole concept of the warlock class.

In short, you're trying to make warlock into less of what it's supposed to be, and more of something you're familair with - the rogue.

[Raugnaut]

How bout this?

Glyph: Curse of the Elements.

You curse the target with the Elements. Small Elementals follow the target around, killing any active companion pets following the target. Curse. 5 min duration. Dispelling any curse will also dispel this. Can be cast on friendly players. On casting, has a chance to summon Ragnaros 3.0, who will follow the target around loudly yelling about how Molten Core and the Firelands was merely a setback, and that that X will be purged by flames.

[Mormolyce]

We had so many curses, now we have one. At least they removed other debuffs too. And guess what, we have nothing to cast into spell reflect.

Curses stopped mattering a long time ago. CotE was a vestigial organ.

They could've redesigned them to make them a big deal again, but that'd be a big change and clearly they don't think Curses are exciting enough as a concept to warrant it.

Warlocks used to be the debuffer with lots of curses and stuff... And now we have come to this?

"Debuffer" hasn't been a role in a long time. A class being strong at debuffs either makes them weak or mandatory, neither is good.

I can't belive it either. And its not only a topic for warlocks, but for wow in general. People seem to be possessed by this utterly retarded idea to bloat/prune pretty much every fucking thing in the game.

Shouldn't you have been complaining about Warlock debuffs not being a major gameplay element for... Jesus I don't even know how many years? A button you click to apply a debuff that lasts a whole fight isn't gameplay, it's a nuisance.

- - - Updated - - -

Warlocks are and have always been a class based around cursing, debuffing and palcing DoT effects on your target. Class mechanics reflect the lore behind the class - warlocks are masters of various curses and afflictions and fel magic.

Curses have not been a major part of being a Warlock in the entire time I've been playing. DoTs are still there, particularly for Affliction which has a kit built around it. CoTE was a minor annoyance that did just enough damage to make it mandatory but not enough damage to make it fun in any way - the worst possible combination. That's bloat.

If you want curses and debuffs to be a bigger part of being a Warlock, okay, but CoTE hasn't achieved that goal in a LONG time. You'd need to redesign the class to do that.

[Voidgazer]

If you want curses and debuffs to be a bigger part of being a Warlock, okay, but CoTE hasn't achieved that goal in a LONG time. You'd need to redesign the class to do that.

How about Blizz redesignes other classes with spell damage taken debuff, so that CoE doesn't feel inferior?

[Nazmina]

CoE is just a single spell, a single spell doesn't make us a debuffer class. We'd need an entire arsenal of curses which have unique effects, other wise we would just be the debuff version of hunters (bringing all debuffs whereas hunters bring all buffs, though they actually do both)

Problem is unique debuffs are hard to make compared to say unique buffs, Hand of Protection is pretty interesting because it only effects one target and only is useful in a specific variety of instances, but is really useful at that point and makes a paladin feel strong and useful.

Debuffs are more problematic because they can't have a significant effect on a boss, which means they'd immediately be negligible on most fights. Lets say they made a fairly interesting curse that reduces a bosses damage by 50% for 5 seconds on a 1 min cooldown. A neat idea that would feel like and actual debuff and not just a generic raid buff/debuff on a checklist.

Problem is that balancing something like that would be a lot more difficult to balance and would clash with design philosophy that try to keep boss damage mostly a tank/healer issue with a few minor dps cds now and then. They'd have to tune it down so that it can't be exploited to negate mechanics, at which point it would feel less like a powerful curse and more like a generic boss based def cd like demoralizing banner. Furthermore it would need to be balanced so that having more than one lock would let each one feel like a debuffer without making it good enough to stack warlocks. If you limit it to only be useable by one lock per raid then all you have is a bloodlust type ability now.

This is just the general idea, but the way WoW is designed doesn't lend itself to a debuffer class very well. I would like to see some debuff style elements added to locks, but the old curses we had did not fit the bill, ever. We'd need a redesign, and since we already got one in MoP another so soon is unlikely. Most we can hope for is a debuff based talent tier next exp that tries to give us something a little more interesting than a generic 5% dmg increases or 10% dmg decrease ect.

[andromalia]

Atleast they dont force a warlock into a certain spec and a certain talent to make it work like they used to. I remember being the guild token Malediction warlock falling behind everyone else on damage just to give them an extra boost to CoE

Or being the warlock that had to stack spirit to get the most out of the spell power buff. I have mixed feelings about the removal. In my 10m guild, we run 2 locks and no rogues so one or the other of us always had to throw up elements. I did like the change of having it spread without the need of a glyph more than an outright removal, but again looking outside in, a lot of other classes lost the same types of debuffs/buffs as well that might have been considered iconic to long standing players of those classes.

[Keile]

Here is the problem with CoE.

It was a set it and forget it buff. You hit it once, maybe twice, per fight and that is it. It adds 0 depth to the class, and adds 0 depth to game play.

I would rather they bake in that 5% damage to all spells and redesign CoE into a short-term, larger, dps boost with a CD attached to make it's use more strategic. That's just a singular idea, there's other things that can be done to keep it in the game but make it less...boring.

[ComputerNerd]

Here is the problem with CoE.

It was a set it and forget it buff. You hit it once, maybe twice, per fight and that is it. It adds 0 depth to the class, and adds 0 depth to game play.

I would rather they bake in that 5% damage to all spells and redesign CoE into a short-term, larger, dps boost with a CD attached to make it's use more strategic. That's just a singular idea, there's other things that can be done to keep it in the game but make it less...boring.

It is called Dark Soul.
Another "press this button, do more dps" type button isn't appealing to me personally.
Whenever someone else could bring it, the current and even planned future form became rather redundant in any larger group format.
There isn't even compelling gameplay when you are the sole provider of it.

Shorter-term alone does not make it more interesting or compelling.
It needed to bring something special.
It didn't.

[Deleted]

There is no valid criticism in your post.

You want to get rid of CoE because the class you used to play has the same ability as a passive effect. Not because it contributes to this fictional button bloat, but simply because you're used to it.

If you feel my OP doesnt have any sense of valid criticism, you might want to read up on the definition of critique. "Critique is commonly understood as fault finding" (wiki), and considdering the fact that blizzard and a vast amount of lock players agreed with my statement, my critique would seem valid.

Comparing the lock version with the rogue version wasnt a case of "i used to have this on X, i want it on Y", but meant as weight to the main argument, pointing out that other classes has the same ability without it requiring a dedicated hotkey.

edited for typo

[Keile]

It is called Dark Soul.
Another "press this button, do more dps" type button isn't appealing to me personally.
Whenever someone else could bring it, the current and even planned future form became rather redundant in any larger group format.
There isn't even compelling gameplay when you are the sole provider of it.

Shorter-term alone does not make it more interesting or compelling.
It needed to bring something special.
It didn't.

Well it would have been a replacement for Dark Soul. Kinda like a swap how they did with some paladin abilities where they removed "iconic" ones, but renamed newer ones into the "iconic" ones name. (Like Holy Light being removed, and Divine Light being namechanged into..Holy Light...which still feels stupid. Why not just tweak holy lights numbers?)

I was also thinking something along the lines of making it more of a short term RAID dps buff, but that would make people stack Locks.

Honestly, CoE has no place in the games current incarnation. It was nifty for a while, but it's outlived its usefulness.


I just hope Curse of Tongues stayed...I rather enjoyed making people speak in Demonic.