Page 1 of 6
1
2
3
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Are Bosses actually getting "better"?

    A year from now, maybe longer, we'll be looking back on MoP. I've seen a lot of claims that raiding has only been "getting better and better", but how true is this?

    Looking back on this expansion and others, here are bosses I thought were great, good, and terrible:

    MOP:

    Well done: Elegon, Durumu, Lei Shen, Siegecrafter, Garrosh

    Good: Vizier, Garalon, Sha of Fear, Ji-Kun, Sha of Pride, Thok

    Bad: Stone Guard, Will of the Emperor, AmberShaper, Lei Shi, Horribledon, Tortos, Animus, Immerseus, Nazgrim, Paragons


    Cata:

    Well done: Ascendent Council, Atramedes, Sinestra, Al'akir, Nef 2.0, Alysrazor, Ragnaros 2.0

    Good: Cho'gal, Zonozz, Hagara

    Bad: Conclave, Chimeron, Slime Dude, Spine, Madness


    Wrath:

    Well done: Sarth 3D, Mimiron, Yogg 0, Putricide, Sinestra, Lich King, Halion

    Good: Malygos, XT, Freya, Anub'arak, lootship (maybe), Algalon (much shiny, very space, wow)

    Bad: lolnaxx2.0, big stone guy, faction champions,


    I noticed that the number of bosses that I actually enjoyed hasn't really changed, even considering how few bosses Cataclysm had. In fact, there were so many bosses this expansion I thought were terrible; either the gimmick was a flop or it was too complex. (For me, gimmicks are either a hit or miss, and there were A LOT of gimmicks this expansion). Personally, I don't see the raids as "getting better", but the quality has mostly been stagnant.

    So what do you guys think? Am i full of shit? I may be becoming sort of 'numb' to bosses now that I've raided for ~seven years. How would you rate the bosses this expansion?

    What makes a set of raids 'good'? Is it the number of great bosses? Number of decent bosses? Would you, at this point, consider this expansion of raiding better than the rest? Let's hope for the best in tier 17

    ITT: my opinion is better than your opinion
    Last edited by mercylolk; 2014-05-21 at 02:16 PM.

  2. #2
    This isn't a subject which can really be quantified. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer in the vast majority of cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unmerciful Conker View Post
    What?! They said soon? Well you dont hear that everyday, I dont know about you guys but that has put my mind at total rest.

  3. #3
    define: opinion

  4. #4
    High Overlord
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Fleetwood; England
    Posts
    106
    MoP
    Good: Siegecrafter - Lei Shen - Iron Juggernaut - Dark Shamans - Horridon - Dark Animus - Durumu - Elegon
    Enjoyed: Spoils - Thok but not the best

    Worst thing in MoP raid wise was Heart of Fear for me (mainly Garalon)

    other than that I've had the most fun raid wise in years, last raid I enjoyed as much as Siege of Org was Hammerknell back in Rift... still probs the greatest raid I've ever finished whilst current

  5. #5
    All pretty subjective.

    Example: You put Durumu under "well done" and I hated that fight and its dumb mechanics. You put Chimaeron and Faction Champs under "bad" and I liked both of those fights. You put Atramedes under "well done" and I thought that was a pretty bland fight (and it was tuned horribly to boot, was a pushover even on heroic).

    So on and so forth.
    Last edited by Bovinity Divinity; 2014-05-20 at 11:01 PM.

  6. #6
    I completely disagree with these. The biggest being Animus which was, without a doubt, one of the most unique bosses we've ever encountered. I had a blast with it even though it was INCREDIBLY unforgiving.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mercylolk View Post
    define: opinion
    What you appear to be looking for is the answer to: "are bosses better or worse now than before"?

    But there is no black and white answer to that where "better" translates to "more fun". People just prefer different things. Will of the Emperor is probably a top 3 boss for MoP for me but that doesn't say anything about its quality. It just means I like it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unmerciful Conker View Post
    What?! They said soon? Well you dont hear that everyday, I dont know about you guys but that has put my mind at total rest.

  8. #8
    I am Murloc! rhorle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    5,609
    There seems to be a disconnect between your title and question you are posing and your reasoning. One talks about bosses being better then before and the other talks about your enjoyment factor of a boss. The two are not equal concepts when discussing bosses. As you don't have to enjoy a boss for it to have better mechanics and function then a previous boss.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
    You know a community is bad when moderators lock a thread because "...this isnt the place to talk about it either seeing as it will get trolled..."

  9. #9
    Yeah I'd consider a boss great if it had a lot of different elements that made the fight flow well. Durumu had a particularly cool gimmick with the color spectrum, and I thought the maze was a fresh and interesting mechanic, it also had a really tight DPS check on heroic.

    Other fights I would consider 'good' if they stood out in my memory among most of the bland bosses

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    There seems to be a disconnect between your title and question you are posing and your reasoning. One talks about bosses being better then before and the other talks about your enjoyment factor of a boss. The two are not equal concepts when discussing bosses. As you don't have to enjoy a boss for it to have better mechanics and function then a previous boss.
    I don't understand what you mean. If raid tiers were becoming better, you would expect to enjoy the bosses more, no? How is the OP not related to the title?
    Last edited by mercylolk; 2014-05-20 at 10:54 PM.

  10. #10
    Because entertainment value is subjective. Do you not see that in the responses of those who hate Durumu?
    Quote Originally Posted by Unmerciful Conker View Post
    What?! They said soon? Well you dont hear that everyday, I dont know about you guys but that has put my mind at total rest.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Krazzorx View Post
    Because entertainment value is subjective. Do you not see that in the responses of those who hate Durumu?
    Yes, I do, which is the point of the thread, to discuss your opinion of how the list of 40-some bosses turned out, and maybe to compare it to your past raiding experiences. I would appreciate it if you would not attack the premise of the discussion, and instead just give your opinion on the raids, thanks.

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Zell the Stormbreaker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Edinburgh, Scotland
    Posts
    3,298
    I think the best boss of this expansion was Lei Shen, with Nefarian arguably the best of Cataclysm. In WotLK I thought Sartharion was the best (and the best single encounter in the game), while I thought Karazhan's Shade of Aran was exceptional for the small amount of content I got through.

    The next step is to identify what made them good, see what's common, and then use that to objectively judge what makes a "good" boss... Which is easier said than done. Ultimately, I think all of these bosses were markedly short on gimmicks, with simply playing your class well being the major factor in your success. They were also largely short of horrible one-shot mechanics that cause wipes off the bat, which might also explain why I liked them.

    Amazingly, Hazzikostas agrees with me about Lei Shen so hopefully that's the type of boss we'll see in the future. The less of Dark Animus we see, the better.

  13. #13
    The reason people are questioning the premise is because 'better' and 'more enjoyable' do not equate. I can objectively look at a fight like Seigecrafter and say that it is a well done fight, but I still don't have a lot of fun with that fight. Whereas mechanically, Spoils is kinda a messy fight that can be broken in so many ways, really somewhat sloppy all around... but I somewhat look forward to it because I find it a nice pace change between Malkorok and Thok.

    As far as overall raids go though, I think SoO is one of the best they've done from a standpoint of a reasonable progression curve, encounter variety, and few gimmicks that scream "This is a gimmick!" (like most of Firelands bosses). SoO may not contain any of my all-time favorite fights... but it also doesn't have any of the fights I truly despised. I feel similarly about Throne of Thunder. Both ToT and SoO (especially having them back to back) show a Blizzard raid team that is currently putting out fights that are consistently solid as compared to the WotLK team which I felt was far more hit or miss. WotLK had some great fights, but also had some downright awful ones.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Bigbazz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    3,398
    Ones that stood out

    TBC : Vashj, Kael Thas
    WOTLK : Yogg Saron, Mimiron, Lich King, Putricide HC, Anub'Arak HC, Faction Champs!
    Cataclysm : Ragnaros, Hagara
    MOP : Stone Guard HC (tho I hated it, genius!), Feng, Will of Emperor, Garrosh.


    I look back most fondly on WOTLK and TBC, The Lich King is the best fight in my opinion and Ulduar was the best raid. I think the bosses may not be getting better, but I don't think they are getting worse either. The first few in SOO are nothing to be excited about, but I haven't done them on HC so maybe my opinion would change.
    I7 2600k @4.5ghz : 16GB DDR3 : GTX670 : Firestudio : Naga : G27

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    5,663
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    All pretty subjective.

    Example: You put Durumu under "well done" and I hated that fight and its dumb mechanics. You put Chimaeron and Faction Champs under "bad" and I liked both of those fights. You put Atramedes under "well done" and I thought that was a pretty bland fight (and it was tuned horribly to boot, was a pushover even on heroic).

    So on and so forth.
    You have weird taste.

  16. #16
    i didnt much like t14. msv was okay, but i didnt like hof. toes was soso, decent setting but gimmicky bosses. started playing very late in this tier and never cleared heroic when it was current

    looking back, tot had a lot of intresting bosses, many of which i like a lot. lei shen is probably the most well designed/intresting boss in the expansion together with blackfuse. the reason is they were made incredibly hard without putting in crazy gear checks (like garrosh)
    my favourites in tot was jinrokh and jikun. and my least favourite was megaera

    siege is the middleground for me. its up there with tot though because of the setting, which i liked, but i dont think many of the bosses are super fun. garrosh as an endboss is okay, and could be better. the waves of adds in p1 together with the very non-epic room its set in kind of killed my first impression, but the rest of the fight weighs up for it, with a pretty heroic last phase, similar to sha of fear.

    favourite in siege is hard. most well designed is blackfuse
    whats most fun doing for me personally norushen, sha of pride and juggeranut. probably because they're pretty simple without being a pudge. theres always joy in tunneling one target :d

    least favs in siege is immerseus and spoils. immerseus isnt such a bad boss but its an annoying one. him going up and down all the time together with the very slow pace. annoying knockups and knockbacks etc.., stop dps due to stacks. lots of annoyances pretty much
    spoils is unique but really its just glorified trash. wouldnt call spoils complex at all just very basic with some mobs to aoe while not blowing up the raid

    edit: my favourites =//= most well designed

    bosses are getting better designed, thats true. but cant compare that to which are favourites, because people like different things

    id wanna see a poll for favourite bosses and a different poll for most well designed bosses. that feels like the core point of your thread
    Last edited by albinm; 2014-05-20 at 11:53 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    You have weird taste.
    I would say the same of anyone who thought Atramedes and Durumu were "great". /boggle

    Gawd, what fight was more boring than Atramedes? Seriously?

  18. #18
    Totally subjective. You're trying to answer a question using only your own personal measuring stick of "enjoyment," and that does not work to produce a meaningful analysis.
    For example, I fundamentally disagree with a few of the bosses in their places on your list, as well as the omission of certain bosses from both the "bad" and the "good" lists- but which of us is right? The answer is "neither," because enjoyment is totally subjective and not at all meaningful to answer this question on such a small, anecdotal scale.

    You also failed to include every boss, which further hurts the validity of your analysis, regardless of the extreme subjectivity.
    Last edited by Daetur; 2014-05-20 at 11:40 PM.

  19. #19
    Don't know. Every addon had horrible encounters - same goes for this. At least there was a relatively decent number overall and I did enjoy the raidcontent for mop.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome Steampunk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Outside of Chicago, Il.
    Posts
    744
    I feel that there's a continual trend of good boss fights and bad boss fights.

    I can't say that it's improving in general... just a stable trend of a few good and a few fillers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Basmothel
    Lacking ammo, the forum troll darts into the realm of personal insults and doomsaying; the most primitive means of gaining attention from its peers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyadore View Post
    You know something, none of us ruined the game. We make it better. And so do most of you.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •