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  1. #21
    Well they've given themselves quite a job with effectively a new spec to balance.

    Also, consider that this means that future shadow priest tier bonuses can't affect or proc from dots. Kind of limiting.
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  2. #22
    Bloodsail Admiral Frmercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Again: This is not about "It's not tuned yet", but "How much can be tuned".
    Quote Originally Posted by eErike View Post
    You are not only comparing the damage of the T6 talent with one Mind Spike and 1s CD reduction on MB. You are ALSO comparing it with the total amount of damage that your Devouring Plauge does over a fight. Delaying the cast of 3orb DP will cause you to do less damage over all (Ends up beeing a lot, as I said, will be back with numbers after my exam-weeks) and your T6 talent will have to be able to offset all those things, which would turn out to be a very, very powerfull, instant cast, spell.
    You underestimate how high they can tune Shadow's T90s now that they don't heal.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Well they've given themselves quite a job with effectively a new spec to balance.

    Also, consider that this means that future shadow priest tier bonuses can't affect or proc from dots. Kind of limiting.
    Nah, just like they changed SoD and DI to work with CoP they can easily make set bonuses that work with CoP.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Frmercury View Post
    You underestimate how high they can tune Shadow's T90s now that they don't heal.
    It's not about how high...

    Non-CoP specs replace Mind Flay for all T90. So each T90 talent is a gain over Mind Flay.
    CoP replaces Mind Flay with casts Halo, and Mind Spike casts with DS/Cascade.

    Now you tune T90 for the non-CoP specs, which is relatively easy. Then look at the CoP specs, and suddenly DS and Cascade are a lot less potent, because they no longer replace Mind Flay, but the stronger Mind Spike. Unless they add some ridicolous "two out of your three T90 talents are buffed"-tooltip to CoP, giving the same potential to DS/Cascade as Halo in CoP isn't possible without overbuffing DS and Cascade for non-CoP

    Further - Mastery still is a problem for T90. More Mastery means less gain from T90. Yes, they can be so far ahead that you still will use them, but it just feels wrong that they're getting worse the more Mastery you get. The different GCD cost of T90 also is bad: In 3 minutes Divine Star will trade 24 Mind Flay ticks, while Halo will only trade 8 Mind Flay ticks. This also means that DS "nerfs" Mastery much more than Halo does.

    Nah, just like they changed SoD and DI to work with CoP they can easily make set bonuses that work with CoP.
    DI works in the regard that Mind Spike can proc it, but that doesn't mean it's functional.

    As written in the OP, instant cast Mind Blasts are largely meaningless to CoP without the required haste, or can be achieved by using the Mind Spike Glyph.
    Mind Blast cooldowns reset is are less powerful for CoP than they are for non-CoP specs - Mind Blast is cast ~6.5 seconds in CoP, and ~10 seconds in non-CoP.
    To this you also have to add that Mind Spike casts already reduce Mind Spikes cooldown. After your first cast, MB has a cooldown of 5.5 seconds, after the second cast it's down to 3 seconds - whatever cooldown it saves you, it isn't much.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    Further - Mastery still is a problem for T90. More Mastery means less gain from T90. Yes, they can be so far ahead that you still will use them, but it just feels wrong that they're getting worse the more Mastery you get. The different GCD cost of T90 also is bad: In 3 minutes Divine Star will trade 24 Mind Flay ticks, while Halo will only trade 8 Mind Flay ticks. This also means that DS "nerfs" Mastery much more than Halo does.
    It's not so much that they don't benefit from mastery (SWP and VT don't benefit from mastery either), it's just they aren't boosted by CoP where they probably should be if they are going to be in the rotation, and in a way that scales, which would be easiest through mastery. This creates problems when not spec'd CoP though which will be in multi-target situations.

    So to keep things balanced, they could just have the T90's boosted by mastery when spec'd CoP so they can be fit nicely into the CoP rotation, without making them crazy OP on add's and council fights when spec'd into the other two level 100 talents. They will run the risk of people just using CoP on everything, but that is always a balancing concern for all talents and is what tuning is all about. ie make the other two talents even stronger when more than one target is present, but weaker than a single target - stating the obvious here, but just getting thoughts down quickly.

    I wouldn't be too worried at this stage about the level 90 talents though, because they said they WILL be in play when stacking mastery and using CoP, so even if they aren't nicely fitting the math now, they will come launch (or at least we can hold off on the panic until a couple of passes in beta to see how they react to actual numbers in raids).

  5. #25
    Are you sure CoP is only viable single target? As soon as I saw the talent I was instantly thinking: Norushen farm. What if you use FDCL + CoP, keep VT on boss, and then use the procs to pump your Mind Spike into short living targets? Or plain CoP and hard cast the MB and MSp on the adds whenever they're up? You could even remove your dots from Norushen after the adds are down, continuing your single target CoP rotation on the boss.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Are you sure CoP is only viable single target? As soon as I saw the talent I was instantly thinking: Norushen farm. What if you use FDCL + CoP, keep VT on boss, and then use the procs to pump your Mind Spike into short living targets? Or plain CoP and hard cast the MB and MSp on the adds whenever they're up? You could even remove your dots from Norushen after the adds are down, continuing your single target CoP rotation on the boss.
    It isn't ONLY single target as you just described, but the intent is single target, so for the dev's to live up to that intent they need to have the other two 100 talents stronger at everything but single target, so that even if CoP is viable in multi-target situations, it won't be as optimal as the other options. Otherwise we would only stack mastery and only use CoP, which they definitely do not want.

    But who knows. <insert canned we have to wait till beta line here>

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Are you sure CoP is only viable single target? As soon as I saw the talent I was instantly thinking: Norushen farm. What if you use FDCL + CoP, keep VT on boss, and then use the procs to pump your Mind Spike into short living targets? Or plain CoP and hard cast the MB and MSp on the adds whenever they're up? You could even remove your dots from Norushen after the adds are down, continuing your single target CoP rotation on the boss.
    That is probably a good way to use this talent, but it all depends on number of adds and how long they live. if it is more than two adds your dots will do so much less damage (because you are stacked mastery which does nothing for them) than if you are not CoP specced adn I think it can be hard to keep up
    I havn't play MoP yet (starting this summer) so I am not so good at the SoO boss fights and can't really speak so much about it but if there is a boss on which you can keep your dots up continiously while throwing DP on it of CD to then keep your damage on another target with Mind Spike + MB that would be great.
    I will actually add that to the OP, thanks

  8. #28
    I thought the CoP line was for DD and dotless spriest specs. In that case why would they allow Insanity benefits for such a spec. I realize it's a trivial rotation but that's what they're giving us.

    Can't wait to test or see test results.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinalcrack View Post
    It isn't ONLY single target as you just described, but the intent is single target, so for the dev's to live up to that intent they need to have the other two 100 talents stronger at everything but single target, so that even if CoP is viable in multi-target situations, it won't be as optimal as the other options. Otherwise we would only stack mastery and only use CoP, which they definitely do not want.

    But who knows. <insert canned we have to wait till beta line here>
    I am not so sure about if it is only intended for single target because there are a lot of situations where there's mainly single target but also some other stuff to do. Right now, Mind Spike is intended for adds which have a very short lifespan but need to be quickly dealt with. Those situations are different than a situation where a Shadow Priest is assigned to multidot the adds, like on Norushen progress. If the adds live longer, you could multidot them (maybe fishing for ToF or DI procs) and then stick with your single target rotation. If your raid desires better multidot from you, you can opt ditching CoP and swapping out your mastery set.

    My point is that I see CoP as a potential cogwheel adding a lot of flexibility to the Shadow spec.

    I forgot to even mention Glyph of Mind Spike in my previous post, but it goes without saying.
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    I am not so sure about if it is only intended for single target because there are a lot of situations where there's mainly single target but also some other stuff to do. Right now, Mind Spike is intended for adds which have a very short lifespan but need to be quickly dealt with. Those situations are different than a situation where a Shadow Priest is assigned to multidot the adds, like on Norushen progress. If the adds live longer, you could multidot them (maybe fishing for ToF or DI procs) and then stick with your single target rotation. If your raid desires better multidot from you, you can opt ditching CoP and swapping out your mastery set.

    My point is that I see CoP as a potential cogwheel adding a lot of flexibility to the Shadow spec.

    I forgot to even mention Glyph of Mind Spike in my previous post, but it goes without saying.
    Yeah, as I said, it isn't only single target, but there has to be a need to use the other two talents. If you can use CoP in all situations and produce the highest dps, why ever use the other two? See what I am getting at?

    For the three talents to all get used, (which I think is the goal), CoP has to be the best in single target situations (and by single target, I don't mean patchwerk, I mean fights where a single target at any given time is the sole priority, with relatively few adds running around).

    VEnt is perfect for small council fights or two boss encounters, where you can keep VEnt rolling on 2-3 targets along with other dots, possibly with them having to die together in a specific window of time.

    AusSpirits will be best in wave type encounters like Galakras, where we have mobs that live long enough to get dots on everything and proc lots of apparitions, (but not long enough to handle mutiple VEnt's, or handle the orb gen time) and churn out orb after orb.

    So this comes down to balancing between the talents. Having CoP very strong when the priority is a single boss, but not as strong as VEnt when you have two+ bosses, or as strong as ASpirits when waves of adds are a priority.

    I could be way off here though as this really comes down to having to think about the mechanics and priorities of any given fight. I am sure with this community there will be all kinds of creative combinations from encounter to encounter.

    It's one of those things where if you stop and think about each lvl100 talent, one at a time, you can see it has applications in a lot of different scenarios for all three. That is an awesome sign! We will have some real choice and variety in the shadow kit come WoD that can be used to tailor our dps to not only the type of encounter, but our role within the strat.

    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    My point is that I see CoP as a potential cogwheel adding a lot of flexibility to the Shadow spec.
    ^^ Totally!
    Last edited by Spinalcrack; 2014-05-29 at 11:42 PM.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinalcrack View Post
    you can see it has applications in a lot of different scenarios for all three.!
    I can see it in only 2.

    VEnt is simple too niche. Let's look back at all MoP bosses where it would've been useful: T14: Mogu Hounds, T15: Troll Council , T16: Maybe Protectors (they go into intermission so often, that the 60 second duration is problematic)

    VEnt is only good on one type of fights, and this type has always been the rarest in every tier, with a good reason for that: Specs that actually shine (and therefore have the most fun) on council fights are just a few.
    VEnt also lacks any interaction with T45. This is a huge disadvantage compared to CoP/VEnt. Not only because it makes tuning harder, but because it greatly limits the talent varierity of VEnt.

    VEnt only has one single advantage in a very rare niche, while lacking talent interaction with a full tier. It only has one use case compared various possibilities CoP/Asp can have with other talent tiers.

  12. #32
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  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    I can see it in only 2.

    VEnt is simple too niche. Let's look back at all MoP bosses where it would've been useful: T14: Mogu Hounds, T15: Troll Council , T16: Maybe Protectors (they go into intermission so often, that the 60 second duration is problematic)

    VEnt is only good on one type of fights, and this type has always been the rarest in every tier, with a good reason for that: Specs that actually shine (and therefore have the most fun) on council fights are just a few.
    VEnt also lacks any interaction with T45. This is a huge disadvantage compared to CoP/VEnt. Not only because it makes tuning harder, but because it greatly limits the talent varierity of VEnt.

    VEnt only has one single advantage in a very rare niche, while lacking talent interaction with a full tier. It only has one use case compared various possibilities CoP/Asp can have with other talent tiers.
    VEnt is, probably the most limited due to the duration of the dot, but it will have a place at least. Other talent row's do not have all three talents getting use. Looking at you Power Infusion. So won't be surprised if VEnt is somewhat niche, but council fights, two-target fights, or possibly single target fights with ridiculous amounts of movement, VEnt may shine.


    Quote Originally Posted by canute View Post
    028902849023849032 809384 09843209 843098 403984 3094 8
    What is this? Your chequeing account number to deposit money for you not to make useless posts again?

  14. #34
    Yeah, as I said, it*isn't*only single target, but there has to be a need to use the other two talents. If you can use CoP in all situations and produce the highest dps, why ever use the other two? See what I am getting at?*For the three talents to all get used, (which I think is the goal), CoP has to be the best in single target situations (and by single target, I don't mean patchwerk, I mean fights where a single target at any given time is the sole priority, with relatively few adds running around).*
    Its just that MS can do so much more damag compared to MF (probly around twice as much SP). That lag has to be compensated by more DoT damag and the other talent choice. In a 2 target fight (with 12 global cooldown rotation) you need normaly 4 globals for the dots and still have like 8 globals left before the refresh. This period will include maybe 2x MB the rest of those 6 globals will probably be MF. The damag without DP could maybe get pritty close on a 2 target fight. But if the CoP also DoT's the 2nd target it could maybe pull ahead.

    On a 3 target fight things might change but the CoP choice could partly multi DoT as well.

    Well i gues we are like the old ferals now with a specialisation in our specialisation.
    Last edited by Saltshak3r; 2014-05-30 at 07:11 PM.

  15. #35
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    I share all of Kaesebrezen's worries about if CoP will be able to scale properly. I hope the points get enough visibility.
    {[( )]}

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Spinalcrack View Post
    Yeah, as I said, it isn't only single target, but there has to be a need to use the other two talents. If you can use CoP in all situations and produce the highest dps, why ever use the other two? See what I am getting at?
    Ideally, yes, but not necessarily because Blizzard is happy when 2 out of 3 choices are viable (T5 says hi!). I can't give you a quote, it'd be from a time where GC was still around (don't think policy changed). If the third option isn't complete dogshit (but still the worst), Blizzard did a very good job. If all 3 options are viable yet situational (like our stat weight is incredibly flexible this tier) Blizzard did an outstanding job.

    An alternative to this "outstanding job" could be with CoP if they balance VEnt higher, but CoP lower, CoP can be that option which eventually takes lead on farm content because SWPs wouldn't tick from the adds on Norushen and because orbs spend on VEnt get wasted. On Norushen, VEnt wouldn't be desired as it is since our single target would be too low for us to go in early. If the adds die quick tho, AuSpi wouldn't do much either. A fight like Galakras is interesting because it has a focus single target + cleave, focus single target + multidot (like Nazgrim), and pure single target sustained (boss itself is nearly Patchwerk) all of which have good and bad solutions, but no solution which is optimal for all.

    I'd also say the tuning, balance, and flexibility is for us as a hybrid with 1 DPS spec more important than for a pure like a Warlock or Mage, akin to Retribution and Windwalker who share the same problem [altho those are melee]. Those pures got 2 more specs to work with. Of course, mentioning that on the Warlock forums would generate all this QQ "..but I wana play Destruction cause that is what I like playing!" which is plain discrimination for a class/spec like ours, and akin to us saying "..but I don't like Shadow Word: Insanity, I like Surge of Darkness, and I'll play that!"
    "When i am done with you, you won't trust your own mind."

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    Ideally, yes, but not necessarily because Blizzard is happy when 2 out of 3 choices are viable (T5 says hi!). I can't give you a quote, it'd be from a time where GC was still around (don't think policy changed). If the third option isn't complete dogshit (but still the worst), Blizzard did a very good job. If all 3 options are viable yet situational (like our stat weight is incredibly flexible this tier) Blizzard did an outstanding job.

    An alternative to this "outstanding job" could be with CoP if they balance VEnt higher, but CoP lower, CoP can be that option which eventually takes lead on farm content because SWPs wouldn't tick from the adds on Norushen and because orbs spend on VEnt get wasted. On Norushen, VEnt wouldn't be desired as it is since our single target would be too low for us to go in early. If the adds die quick tho, AuSpi wouldn't do much either. A fight like Galakras is interesting because it has a focus single target + cleave, focus single target + multidot (like Nazgrim), and pure single target sustained (boss itself is nearly Patchwerk) all of which have good and bad solutions, but no solution which is optimal for all.

    I'd also say the tuning, balance, and flexibility is for us as a hybrid with 1 DPS spec more important than for a pure like a Warlock or Mage, akin to Retribution and Windwalker who share the same problem [altho those are melee]. Those pures got 2 more specs to work with. Of course, mentioning that on the Warlock forums would generate all this QQ "..but I wana play Destruction cause that is what I like playing!" which is plain discrimination for a class/spec like ours, and akin to us saying "..but I don't like Shadow Word: Insanity, I like Surge of Darkness, and I'll play that!"
    100% agree

  18. #38
    Okay i for myself just realised that the DoT of DP will actually do another 335% SP damag which will lead in 83,75% SP per global CD.
    Mindspike Base Damag is 97,5% SP *1,2 for perk *1,4 CoP and asuming *1,35 for mastery resulting in 221% SP per cast of MS.
    Basically if we cast something else than MS we will have to make up at least 221% SP - 83,75% = 137,25%
    I also see FDCL really strong compared to insanity since it will multiply the MS damag up to 221%*1,5 = 331,5% SP.
    With insanity we would also lose globals after DP´s DoT has finished because of the continues channeling.
    if we see any other add we would probly cast DoTs´s on them and use MB cast on primary target during DP´s time window.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaesebrezen View Post
    It's not just "how they work out" - it's also "if they can work out". And for "if they can" you don't need to wait endlessly.

    - CoP requires Mind Spike to deal more damage than Mind Flay.
    - DPs DoT + Mind Flay have to deal more damage than Mind Spike

    Due to Mastery Mind Spikes damage will grow faster with Mastery than Mind Spike does, at one point Mind Spike will overtake MF + DP in terms of damage.
    You can't endlessly nerf/buff Mind Flay if it's in tuned correctly for the non-CoP spec, same for Mind Spike, as it has to keep it's original intent for these specs (else it would be a FDCL only spell...).

    Just look at the interaction T100 currently has with T45: CoP can't use FDCL/Insanity, because of the Mastery problem. VEnt has reduced benefit from FDCL/Insanity with growing number of targets, Asp. Spirits sees an increased benefit from FDCL/Insanity with number of targets until you run out of GCDs. This alone is a massive problem.

    Thanks to the DI change, DI + FDCL have an incredible syngergy for non-CoP specs, while non CoP-specs does not have it. (and mechanic wise DI is bad for CoP - CoP has a low average MB CD already, and instant cast MBs can be achieved via glyph, and unless you have the correct haste breakpoint, are useless it terms of lowering the effective MB CD)

    T90 is not only a number problem. It's also a rotational problem.

    As eErike has written, you want haste to be at a value to fit an exact number of Mind Spikes between your Mind Blast - you do NOT want to place your T90 talents between Mind Blasts, but into DP, else you're losing out on the -MB cooldown effect of Mind Spike.

    Since CoP currently has a 19-20 second DP cycle, only one T90 talent has a adequate cooldown. That's Halo. Divine Star and Halo will never fit into CoPs rotation.
    If you're going to speak for the 0.1% of player's fixated on "theoretically perfect rotations" /gag, then you should clearly do so from the start. Most players wont care about what you're describing with the T90 "cooldown problem" - they'll pick the ability they like best or the one the situation calls for, just like they always have. Stress out more about something irrelevant.

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