1. #1
    Field Marshal Shadowschoeman's Avatar
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    Post Miscalculations regarding DPS

    I haven't played WoW for quite some time. Although I have been playing other MMOs that require a lot of number crunching and maths. EVE, Anarchy, Starcraft.

    This isn't going to be a long-winded thread involving maths however, just a simple observation.

    Many classes have abilities that increase damage at certain health periods. (Above 80%, Below 20%, etc.)

    The longer these periods are for certain classes, albeit modified by the boss' abilities or however, (reducing the damage it takes, healing itself, increasing the damage it takes) the more chance said classes have to do more DPS than the other classes.

    I'm not sure which classes are top of the charts currently so any insight would help!

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer Valyrian Stormclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowschoeman View Post
    I haven't played WoW for quite some time. Although I have been playing other MMOs that require a lot of number crunching and maths. EVE, Anarchy, Starcraft.

    This isn't going to be a long-winded thread involving maths however, just a simple observation.

    Many classes have abilities that increase damage at certain health periods. (Above 80%, Below 20%, etc.)

    The longer these periods are for certain classes, albeit modified by the boss' abilities or however, (reducing the damage it takes, healing itself, increasing the damage it takes) the more chance said classes have to do more DPS than the other classes.

    I'm not sure which classes are top of the charts currently so any insight would help!
    Despite what fan sites like Noxxic would have you believe, all classes have about equal DPS. Difference at most is about 20%. DPS is about skill, not spec.

    At the very very most, Fire mages would be top. But they are not the top by much.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    Despite what fan sites like Noxxic would have you believe, all classes have about equal DPS. Difference at most is about 20%. DPS is about skill, not spec.

    At the very very most, Fire mages would be top. But they are not the top by much.
    Dude you have no idea what is goin on. There are a few classes, let alone specs that are way behind the top performing specs. A top performing DK gets beat by a above average Arcane Mage. A top performing Hunter gets beat by an above average Aff Lock. There are huge disparities between the top performing specs, mid of the pack and lowest performing. No amount of skill will change that. Also fire isnt even in the top 5

    To the OP, check out raidbots and world of logs these with a little digging around will give you a very good idea of how specs are doing

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral dashflash890's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    Despite what fan sites like Noxxic would have you believe, all classes have about equal DPS. Difference at most is about 20%. DPS is about skill, not spec.

    At the very very most, Fire mages would be top. But they are not the top by much.
    I highly doubt this. Some classes are shit compared to others. No matter how good you are. If your class is shit even if you are a top player a average guy in a faceroll tops dps spec will still out dps you.
    You must be a racist if you don't agree with me.

  5. #5
    The Lightbringer Valyrian Stormclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenbud View Post
    Dude you have no idea what is goin on. There are a few classes, let alone specs that are way behind the top performing specs. A top performing DK gets beat by a above average Arcane Mage. A top performing Hunter gets beat by an above average Aff Lock. There are huge disparities between the top performing specs, mid of the pack and lowest performing. No amount of skill will change that. Also fire isnt even in the top 5

    To the OP, check out raidbots and world of logs these with a little digging around will give you a very good idea of how specs are doing
    It's all theoretical; yes, it is possible for a fire mage to reach a DPS of 400k, but in reality, do you see mages everywhere switching to fire to do that? Ofcourse not. Because it's not realistic. Your average heroic raider DPS does about 250k at most. 300K is skilled. 350k+ is balloni.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dashflash890 View Post
    I highly doubt this. Some classes are shit compared to others. No matter how good you are. If your class is shit even if you are a top player a average guy in a faceroll tops dps spec will still out dps you.
    It's even less than the 20% he was saying, lol.

    Too many people on these forums get into a mindset of "X is shit" rather than looking at actual real world numbers and understanding the degree to which one spec outperforms another, and under what circumstances. It's much more marginal than you think.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    It's all theoretical; yes, it is possible for a fire mage to reach a DPS of 400k, but in reality, do you see mages everywhere switching to fire to do that? Ofcourse not. Because it's not realistic. Your average heroic raider DPS does about 250k at most. 300K is skilled. 350k+ is balloni.
    This makes absolutely zero sense. Seriously what are you talking about?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    It's even less than the 20% he was saying, lol.

    Too many people on these forums get into a mindset of "X is shit" rather than looking at actual real world numbers and understanding the degree to which one spec outperforms another, and under what circumstances. It's much more marginal than you think.
    So what your saying is Frost DK ~= Affliction Lock? Or BM Hunter ~= Arcane Mage? If that is what you are saying then you sir are very wrong.

  8. #8
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    It's all theoretical; yes, it is possible for a fire mage to reach a DPS of 400k, but in reality, do you see mages everywhere switching to fire to do that? Ofcourse not. Because it's not realistic. Your average heroic raider DPS does about 250k at most. 300K is skilled. 350k+ is balloni.
    I don't think you should talk about things you don't understand. I do over 350k on a good day in mostly normal mode gear. HC/WF geared people of the right specs can be doing 500k or more

    Also the difference in just the top 10 is above or about 20%, so anyone saying 20% across all specs is absolutely clueless.

    Morm you play a rogue yes? You understand combat is top 5 single target?
    Last edited by Raiju; 2014-05-26 at 10:33 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  9. #9
    I am Murloc! prwraith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    It's all theoretical; yes, it is possible for a fire mage to reach a DPS of 400k, but in reality, do you see mages everywhere switching to fire to do that? Ofcourse not. Because it's not realistic. Your average heroic raider DPS does about 250k at most. 300K is skilled. 350k+ is balloni.
    What my survival hunter pulls 300k sustained single target with raid buffs and only 2 pieces of heroic gear.

    If 350k puts me into the realm of gods I'll be there in about 8 pieces.

  10. #10

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowschoeman View Post
    I haven't played WoW for quite some time. Although I have been playing other MMOs that require a lot of number crunching and maths. EVE, Anarchy, Starcraft.

    This isn't going to be a long-winded thread involving maths however, just a simple observation.

    Many classes have abilities that increase damage at certain health periods. (Above 80%, Below 20%, etc.)

    The longer these periods are for certain classes, albeit modified by the boss' abilities or however, (reducing the damage it takes, healing itself, increasing the damage it takes) the more chance said classes have to do more DPS than the other classes.

    I'm not sure which classes are top of the charts currently so any insight would help!
    That is an incorrect assumption mostly; as fights are not Patchwerk anymore and balance has been tuned around execute phases.
    Given Hunters as examples, Careful Aim makes for great burst numbers, but slightly lower sustain anywhere between 80-20% hp compared to the other specs.
    DPS is balanced around those burst phases (mostly, exceptions apply).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by waldor22 View Post
    yet those numebers espeically on protectors are pulled out of nowhere and created by people cheesing mechanics and their class potential to maximum - nobody besides top 0.01% of raiders can come any close to that -_- people need to look more relastically and reliase that balnce of classes isnt made around top 0.01 % of players only around average joe raider who pulls 200k in 560 itlv -_-

    Quote Originally Posted by prwraith View Post
    What my survival hunter pulls 300k sustained single target with raid buffs and only 2 pieces of heroic gear.

    If 350k puts me into the realm of gods I'll be there in about 8 pieces.
    exept atm if u have full normal + 2 hc pieces with all 2/4 pre pathc upgraded and 8 peices 4/4 after patch this puts u on 570-571 itlv -_-

    where 300k is nothing surprising if players is decent if not good -_- definetly way above average raider.
    Last edited by kamuimac; 2014-05-26 at 12:50 PM.

  13. #13
    Legendary! Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    yet those numebers espeically on protectors are pulled out of nowhere and created by people cheesing mechanics and their class potential to maximum - nobody besides top 0.01% of raiders can come any close to that -_- people need to look more relastically and reliase that blance of lcasses isnt made around top 0.01 % of players only around average joe raider who pulls 200k in 560 itlv -_-
    Given how simple the individual class rotations are, a balance at top 0.01% is still fairly balanced for average joe. You'll always have easy and difficult specs (and they said they want to try to reward difficulty a little bit), but it's not like they're even trying this tier based on what they've said.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  14. #14
    Specs are definitely not equal. Which boss matters and RNG matters as well.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    yet those numebers espeically on protectors are pulled out of nowhere and created by people cheesing mechanics and their class potential to maximum - nobody besides top 0.01% of raiders can come any close to that -_- people need to look more relastically and reliase that balnce of classes isnt made around top 0.01 % of players only around average joe raider who pulls 200k in 560 itlv -_-



    exept atm if u have full normal + 2 hc pieces with all 2/4 pre pathc upgraded and 8 peices 4/4 after patch this puts u on 570-571 itlv -_-

    where 300k is nothing surprising if players is decent if not good -_- definetly way above average raider.
    My warlock pulls 200-250k at 551 ilvl, with a flex weapon (still 548). If I can get lucky with little movement 250k is pretty easy. Our ele shammy, and ret pally from the raid group, at 550-560 ilvl were pulling 250-300k on most single target fights.

    Classes scale incredibly different is the biggest issue, and interact with different fights greatly. A warlock on 2 targets for example is incredibly strong due to havoc as destro, whereas a feral druid gets little bonus as it cant really effectively cleave 2 targets at once (like twin shamans).

    Also dont really pay much attention to websites which run from parses where people literally only go for rankings including using exploits and bugs and chaining CD's etc into a single person. It really does skew the real numbers sometimes. You can get some decent averages though from them, just dont look at the maximum numbers for realistic levels of dps.

  16. #16
    Banned Lei Shi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamuimac View Post
    yet those numebers espeically on protectors are pulled out of nowhere and created by people cheesing mechanics and their class potential to maximum - nobody besides top 0.01% of raiders can come any close to that -_- people need to look more relastically and reliase that balnce of classes isnt made around top 0.01 % of players only around average joe raider who pulls 200k in 560 itlv -_-



    exept atm if u have full normal + 2 hc pieces with all 2/4 pre pathc upgraded and 8 peices 4/4 after patch this puts u on 570-571 itlv -_-

    where 300k is nothing surprising if players is decent if not good -_- definetly way above average raider.
    If you're looking at what average joe raiders do, then this is more accurate.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    It's all theoretical;
    Logs aren't theoretical, they capture real raid performance.

    Also 20% more dmg is A LOT.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    It's all theoretical; yes, it is possible for a fire mage to reach a DPS of 400k, but in reality, do you see mages everywhere switching to fire to do that? Ofcourse not. Because it's not realistic. Your average heroic raider DPS does about 250k at most. 300K is skilled. 350k+ is balloni.
    Do you actually raid heroic?

    300k to 350k is a very average dps in Helter Skelter fights around 575 (well itemized)

    P.S Fucking Warlocks are off the scale on crack cocaine.
    Last edited by Mihalik; 2014-05-27 at 12:44 AM.
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  19. #19
    Stood in the Fire Drsolders's Avatar
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    My spriest on single target over long fights (6+ minutes) can sustain 290k @ 566, plenty of classes can do much more. The damage gap between top spec and bottem spec if played at the max skill level is pretty decent but of course it comes down to the fight. Is a spriest going to do amazing on Malk? Most likely not but they will be pretty god tier on protectors. On the other hand on single target fights other classes rain supreme and spriest fall to the dirt (even benched in some fights with high dmg requirement, like heroic garrosh. Please remember the only time this would happen is in a heroic progression guild spriest are fine until far heroics)

  20. #20
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valyrian Stormclaw View Post
    It's all theoretical; yes, it is possible for a fire mage to reach a DPS of 400k, but in reality, do you see mages everywhere switching to fire to do that? Ofcourse not. Because it's not realistic. Your average heroic raider DPS does about 250k at most. 300K is skilled. 350k+ is balloni.
    250k? Really? Interesting. I sim at 460k. Most raiders I know, even in <714H guild sim at 350k+. Heck some are 400k.

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