The Future of Retribution (Constructive)

[Nurvus]

Don't you dare touch Final Verdict and replace it with a copy of GoAK.

I don't remove Final Verdict, I make it available baseline through a proc (Wrathbringer) - Final Verdict has a great concept, but as a Level 100 Talent it's awful and boring.

I have a question for you - you don't need to answer, but think about it a little: do you actually like Final Verdict as a level 100 talent, or am I right to believe that you simply dislike Empowered Seals & Seraphim?

And Herald of Light is quite different from GoAK: a) it has no pet, so it's closer to Shadowmourne; and b) the Protection effect is no longer a Shield Wall clone, and the Holy effect is also slightly different.

Most of the suggestions seem to have the sole intention of making the Paladin unnecessarily more powerful (especially passive wise with the auras). I also feel like making BoP usable solely on allies for the 1min cd reduction is not worth it, especially since we can spec into Clemency if we want it more frequently. I could comment on every suggestion, but as the OP is a post with your ideas and this'd be a post with my ideas I don't think it'd get us anywhere considering neither of us has any input at Blizzard, and Blizzard has loads of people with ideas. Though I respect your enthusiasm for game design.

Absolutely wrong (about my suggestions' purpose).
I have ZERO intentions of having Paladins become better than other classes.
I take no pleasure in playing a game where I win because my class is the best. I want the merit to be mine.

I increased the cooldown on some abilities, added a high mana cost to Seals & CS/HotR, etc.
In the end, what I want is that Retribution can provide competitive damage in PvE, pose a threat in PvP, yet in order to do your full dps, you must sacrifice utility/survival.

If you notice, a lot of my suggestions buff sustained damage in PvE in a way that is counterable in PvP - naturally balancing the two without having to use stupid split mechanics.

[anaxie]

The discussion isn't going on because things are wrong in the beta build. The discussion is going on because that is the shit that will actually go live. Not your pretend fantasy paladin.

[Alenko]

The discussion isn't going on because things are wrong in the beta build. The discussion is going on because that is the shit that will actually go live. Not your pretend fantasy paladin.

My fantasy paladin? 3.0. Ah those were the days, when a ret paladin in holy pvp gear with an S1 2her could show everyone around him how pissed he was with 1 button.

On the subject of Seals costing mana, that would make EmpSeals useless as it is designed to have you change seals. This is unless you give EmpS the ability to lower Seal Mana cost to 0 (this is at Nurvus' discussion)

[Nurvus]

The discussion isn't going on because things are wrong in the beta build. The discussion is going on because that is the shit that will actually go live. Not your pretend fantasy paladin.

If beta's Retribution WILL go live, then you can't change anything - what's there left to discuss?
Inversely, if your discussion it's not about a "pretend fantasy paladin", then it means you believe you can change something, and in that case what's so different between your discussion and mine?

You're just arbitrarily deciding what "is" feasible and what "isn't".

And did you actually see some indication in my suggestion as to WHEN my ideas should be implemented?
I never said my suggestions must go live in WoD or anything.
I'm merely providing my thoughts on the Retribution paladin, the many things I thing should be done, and WHY they would work.

You're just taking sides.

On the subject of Seals costing mana, that would make EmpSeals useless as it is designed to have you change seals. This is unless you give EmpS the ability to lower Seal Mana cost to 0 (this is at Nurvus' discussion)

A valid concern, but at the bottom of my first post, I speak of Talent Changes, where I suggest 2 changes for Empowered Seals: one regarding charges, and the other is extended duration on the buffs, in part due to the increased cooldown on Judgement - meaning you don't need to change Seals as often.
And regardless, since you CAN change Seals as often as you can Judge, it's a non-issue.

Keep good criticism like that coming because I too want to know the flaws in my suggestion, and perhaps we can come up with much better ideas.
But please keep in mind I did put a fair deal of thought into this. If you find an "outrageous" flaw, it's likely you're missing something that I mentioned.

[Deleted]

I don't remove Final Verdict, I make it available baseline through a proc (Wrathbringer) - Final Verdict has a great concept, but as a Level 100 Talent it's awful and boring.

I have a question for you - you don't need to answer, but think about it a little: do you actually like Final Verdict as a level 100 talent, or am I right to believe that you simply dislike Empowered Seals & Seraphim?

Fair enough, I missed the Wrathbringer proc as I skimmed through most of the post. And I quite like the idea of all of our lvl 100 talents. I'm not playing the beta however so the way I interpret them in my head might be completely wrong.

Have you seen the visual on Final Verdict

On the subject of Seals costing mana, that would make EmpSeals useless as it is designed to have you change seals. This is unless you give EmpS the ability to lower Seal Mana cost to 0 (this is at Nurvus' discussion)

I doubt ret paladins will go oom if they swap their seal every 10 seconds (keeping all 4 buffs up will greatly impair your ability to do anything else, you'll have to make a choice).

[Deleted]

What I really liked about tbc and wotlk ret was that our rotation was alot slower, sort of the mindset blizzard has for arms warriors now. Fewers hits but hits like a truck which Ret should be in a way. Would love to have consecration back and remove exo for sure. It could solve ret for PvP in terms of burst output.

[Deleted]

I would love a slower playstyle. Though I'm not sure how interesting that would be to actually play.

[Nurvus]

I would love a slower playstyle. Though I'm not sure how interesting that would be to actually play.

Imo it's not how fast, but whether you actually have decision-making involved in your rotation, or if it's mind-numbingly repetitive.

If you notice, in my suggestion, you end up pressing roughly the same amount of buttons, but less of them do damage - Seals don't do damage, merely buff.
Seals in my suggestion are almost like Tiger's Fury (Feral).

But through Seals and Wrathbringer, I add some depth to the gameplay without actually adding more abilities/keybinds.

[Nurvus]

What I really liked about tbc and wotlk ret was that our rotation was alot slower, sort of the mindset blizzard has for arms warriors now. Fewers hits but hits like a truck which Ret should be in a way. Would love to have consecration back and remove exo for sure. It could solve ret for PvP in terms of burst output.

It would only be slightly slower.
Think of the empty GCD's a Rogue has.
They're not many, but allow you to fit additional Combo Point generators after - for example - getting kited or having to move away from boss.

That's as far as "slower" means in my suggestion.
Seals would occupy some of the GCDs you currently use for damaging abilities.
But when you do hit, you'd hit considerably harder

[BAK]

Your signature is apt. "Why did you necro a thread?"

[Nurvus]

Your signature is apt. "Why did you necro a thread?"

When the Legion is coming out and feedback on the state of things is more relevant than ever, then I recommend you read the rest of my sig and try to understand its real meaning.

Because if everything is a necro, then the search function is useless.

Every single suggestion in my thread is still valid.

[Curulan]

Not only that, but he replied to the same post he replied to more than a year previous. And said pretty much the same thing again.

[Nurvus]

Not only that, but he replied to the same post he replied to more than a year previous. And said pretty much the same thing again.

If I had made the same thread disguised under a different name with some changes in the post so it looks different, while suggesting the same thing, would that make the thread more legit?

As I said, the thread's purpose remains, Legion announcement doesn't seem to address any of the issues I see with Retribution, and they are still there - even in WoD.

I quoted the wrong thing. Meant to quote the post above it