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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by HiFish View Post
    However, this would remove the main purpose of haste, namely speeding up your gameplay.
    That's right, but it actually doesn't matter, since haste doesn't speed up gameplay once you're GCD-locked anyway.

    My proposal of flattening the haste scaling resource curve would satisfy that, but you can't drop below 15% or you GCD-cap, and you need to start somewhere, and people are resistant to even starting at 20%! They are simply too accustomed to being GCD-capped after years of playing a DK. Of course we don't need to convince players, most of them don't understand the concepts being discussed in the first place. We need to convince the devs-- but if we can't come to a consensus amongst players, mixed feedback will be discarded.

  2. #502
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    That's right, but it actually doesn't matter, since haste doesn't speed up gameplay once you're GCD-locked anyway.

    My proposal of flattening the haste scaling resource curve would satisfy that, but you can't drop below 15% or you GCD-cap, and you need to start somewhere, and people are resistant to even starting at 20%! They are simply too accustomed to being GCD-capped after years of playing a DK. Of course we don't need to convince players, most of them don't understand the concepts being discussed in the first place. We need to convince the devs-- but if we can't come to a consensus amongst players, mixed feedback will be discarded.
    The problem is we've been a high APM class since the start. You can't just change that and expect the masses who enjoy that aspect of the class to be okay with it. It's why I like my dk more than anything else I play(all plate and cloth @90). I think the best route is have haste effect something else and give us a base regen time. It won't make us play faster, but I feel there is no happy medium aside from making our regen a base speed. That is the only way they can make people on both sides of the argument happy. And even then some people will be unhappy about it.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    You can't just change that and expect the masses who enjoy that aspect of the class to be okay with it.
    Like any change, some people won't like it. I happen to think it's worthwhile, for a number of reasons which I've substantiated in this thread.

  4. #504
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    Like any change, some people won't like it. I happen to think it's worthwhile, for a number of reasons which I've substantiated in this thread.
    I can't agree that it will be worthwhile on the pvp side. As I have also said. For PvE it could be a great change but they will need to buff our damage to make up for the down time. That has implications to pvp. You can't just look at it fixing the problem in one aspect of game which is what your reasons and hifish's reasons are doing. Do you want another Season 5? I certainly don't. If we can now pool our resources instead of using them right away frost will become the best burst class in the game. Simply because by design changes to mobile casting/instant casts reduced CC Frost DKs get a buff to survival without them touching anything in frosts kit. Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I would rather not have another S5 potential with the after effect coming back to bite us in the ass again.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    they will need to buff our damage to make up for the down time. (...) If we can now pool our resources instead of using them right away frost will become the best burst class in the game
    No offense, but please don't pollute the thread with stuff like this. Spec balance is completely separate from mechanics. Of course we'll be balanced with all changes taken into account in both PvE and PvP.

  6. #506
    How is it polluting the thread? Because I'm making a valid counter-argument?

    Frost Burst for RBGs is good right now, unholy is better due to pressure. Two very different things. They aren't removing MotFW or ToT from what we know so far. We don't know numbers yet, but we do know if there is added down time to a high apm class it will effect pvp. With the removal of necrotic they plan on buffing our damage. Frost and Unholy will see those buffs, Obliterate already does decent damage in PvP if you're geared, the issue isn't frosts damage but its survival which is getting a buff without them touching any of frosts kit. So Obliterate, Frost Strike, Scourge Strike Diseases are all going to get buffed with the removal of NS...with added down time they need to compensate somewhere which means things hit even harder...As frost if we can now pool abilities and resources due to down time then we can build burst essentially by pooling RP and sitting on runes, with the current GCD at 1s we could essentially hit 8 abilities in 8 seconds before latency so maybe 8 abilities in 12 seconds which is still a lot and for burst reasons they would have to nerf scourge strike obliterate frost strike. Frost is already a great burst spec, the problem is survival and pooling resources for burst sequence could be damaging on the class in PvP and anything that happens in PvP effects the PvE game in terms of nerfs. Like I said maybe im being pessimistic but I see this being a real problem. Granted we dont have numbers yet, and my opinion may change once we see them however I have no confidence in blizzard when it comes to this class.

    All it would take is a well timed CC to absolutely blow someone up.

  7. #507
    I explained why in my response. Unsurprisingly, I didn't think it was a bad post because it was a valid counterargument.

    All that stuff will be covered in the balance pass. If you just think Blizzard sucks at balance, that's a cool story (bro) but I mean, you play the game, so telling the developers they shouldn't make changes because they lack the competence to balance afterwards isn't going to win friends or influence people.
    Last edited by Schizoide; 2014-06-25 at 03:20 PM.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I explained why in my response. Unsurprisingly, I didn't think it was a bad post because it was a valid counterargument.
    Do you actually trust blizzard to balance around PvE and PvP? They have never been able to do it, why would they be able to now in WoD?

  9. #509
    It's not a matter of trust. I trust them to act in good faith, to aim for balance, and to not favor any spec or class over another. They often fail to execute, but that doesn't mean the game would be better off static-- balance is hard. People need to get over their fear of change.

  10. #510
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Do you actually trust blizzard to balance around PvE and PvP? They have never been able to do it, why would they be able to now in WoD?
    Because Ability Pruning! /snarky
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  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    It's not a matter of trust. I trust them to act in good faith, to aim for balance, and to not favor any spec or class over another. They often fail to execute, but that doesn't mean the game would be better off static-- balance is hard. People need to get over their fear of change.
    I would welcome downtime for unholy since it would actually make our strikes feel as if they are hitting for something...going from a 530 weapon to 569 weapon I saw Scourge Strike go from 65k to 69k!(physical aspect) WoW.

    Unholy has naturally been a less APM spec than frost and I gladly accept a change to the specific downtime for unholy. Frost has always been a fast and furious spec so to speak. Slowing it down has it's benefits and I fully understand them. Mechanically it could help with using abilities outside of damage for frost however I see the other side of that as well. The fact that downtime will need a warrant of something added, in this case probably damage. On top of the damage the specs will see due to losing Necrotic Strike. I just see a repeat of Season 5 in PvP for DKs and I really don't want the after effects to come to haunt us IF this does in fact happen.

  12. #512
    Stood in the Fire Vholu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    On top of the damage the specs will see due to losing Necrotic Strike. I just see a repeat of Season 5 in PvP for DKs and I really don't want the after effects to come to haunt us IF this does in fact happen.
    Frost will not gain a lot of compensation for losing necrotic strike because the spec barely/never uses it with a 2hand, and dual wields compensation in damage will not result in scary burst because it can't burn away 6 runes in 3 GCDs.

    Unholy will get compensated for it the most, gains damage and burst but also loses effectivity against defensive cooldowns.

    And on top of it all lie relatively doubled health pools, making pooled burst even less of a concern.

  13. #513
    Quote Originally Posted by vholu View Post
    Frost will not gain a lot of compensation for losing necrotic strike because the spec barely/never uses it with a 2hand, and dual wields compensation in damage will not result in scary burst because it can't burn away 6 runes in 3 GCDs.

    Unholy will get compensated for it the most, gains damage and burst but also loses effectivity against defensive cooldowns.

    And on top of it all lie relatively doubled health pools, making pooled burst even less of a concern.
    I agree that Unholy will see the most gains for the removal of NS, but good 2H frost DKs used it in RBGs. I was mostly speaking from a 2H perspective so yes you're absolutely right about DW not being able to burn runes in the allotted globals. Part of being a good pvpers is noticing buffs, if someone has a defensive up, you wait to apply your burst. The downtime will allow that and I like that I really do, But once it's up and a well timed CC in 3v3 could hypothetically be game over.

    While health pools are much higher than the damage we are doing, whats to say 2H frosts pooled burst isn't 50% of their health? That's a big chunk...All you'd have to do is work someone down, make a well timed cc, and let the DK unleash. Hell even if it was 30% HP that's a big chunk....get them to 50% and unload getting them to 20% with a warrior partner.

    To make it clear, I don't think DK burst will be able to kill a target in its pooled burst. I also only think with 3v3 and RBGs in mind. I dont like 5v5 or 2v2 for actual competition. Say your comp is TSTree, A well timed cyclone on top of warrior up time on a target and hypothetical pooled frost burst could be game over. They have continually tried to make Arena not about burst but have continually failed at that aspect. Which is why I have my doubts.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Unholy has naturally been a less APM spec than frost and I gladly accept a change to the specific downtime for unholy. Frost has always been a fast and furious spec so to speak.
    Eh that kinda depends on your gearing. I mean obviously at the start of the expan all the dps specs of DK's have a slower feel then usual, but end game not much difference. I have the same sort of spammy gameplay in Unholy compared to the (very few times) I went DW or 2h Frost. One of the things I like best about Unholy is it's rotational flow, which overall is pretty smooth and lenient between being able to dump runes in whatever manner lets you forth into not capping runes best.

  15. #515
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    Eh that kinda depends on your gearing. I mean obviously at the start of the expan all the dps specs of DK's have a slower feel then usual, but end game not much difference. I have the same sort of spammy gameplay in Unholy compared to the (very few times) I went DW or 2h Frost. One of the things I like best about Unholy is it's rotational flow, which overall is pretty smooth and lenient between being able to dump runes in whatever manner lets you forth into not capping runes best.
    Eh, Unholy can use all its runes in 4 globals(not including when you have death runes). 2H frost can use all its runes in 3 globals. dw in 6. Im basing this of the correct way to play the spec. The difference comes down to RP though, currently at best you get 3 Death Coils from a full bar of RP, dw and 2H get 5 Frost strikes.

    So for unholy to use all potential resources(assuming you're playing poorly) it would take an unholy 7 globals to use all of its resources. It would take 2H 8, and DW 11. While the difference in 2H and unholy isn't much it's drastically different for DW vs unholy. Granted this is just based on a one time resource dump and not an actual encounter or even actions per minute. I just find when I'm DW I am more GCD locked than unholy with more APM. When I play unholy I am not AS locked as frost on some fights. Simply due to less actions per resource dump.

    It's also that way due to the obscene amount of AMS soaking we can get away with in this tier. Even in cata when AMS didn't give frost RP, frost was still providing more APM than unholy in my experience.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by valliant13 View Post
    Eh, Unholy can use all its runes in 4 globals(not including when you have death runes). 2H frost can use all its runes in 3 globals. dw in 6. Im basing this of the correct way to play the spec. The difference comes down to RP though, currently at best you get 3 Death Coils from a full bar of RP, dw and 2H get 5 Frost strikes.

    So for unholy to use all potential resources(assuming you're playing poorly) it would take an unholy 7 globals to use all of its resources. It would take 2H 8, and DW 11. While the difference in 2H and unholy isn't much it's drastically different for DW vs unholy. Granted this is just based on a one time resource dump and not an actual encounter or even actions per minute. I just find when I'm DW I am more GCD locked than unholy with more APM. When I play unholy I am not AS locked as frost on some fights. Simply due to less actions per resource dump.

    It's also that way due to the obscene amount of AMS soaking we can get away with in this tier. Even in cata when AMS didn't give frost RP, frost was still providing more APM than unholy in my experience.
    If you ignore death runes with Unholy then of course it looks like a huge difference, but if you do include death runes then it becomes a range of 7-9 which makes more sense. The 11 for DW is also baring the point that the person is geared enough to slim down to only doing HB with their runes (and DnD/PS for the Unholy runes) so realistically it "could" be 2 lower at 9, making it's range 9-11 which hits the top end of Unholy's range (I was geared enough to do just HB spam but even then Unholy's flow feels the same overall from my play).

    I know that only every other rune cycle will Unholy have death runes but it occurs common enough to make it a reasonable place to also get the info for using all it's resources.

  17. #517
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxweii View Post
    If you ignore death runes with Unholy then of course it looks like a huge difference, but if you do include death runes then it becomes a range of 7-9 which makes more sense. The 11 for DW is also baring the point that the person is geared enough to slim down to only doing HB with their runes (and DnD/PS for the Unholy runes) so realistically it "could" be 2 lower at 9, making it's range 9-11 which hits the top end of Unholy's range (I was geared enough to do just HB spam but even then Unholy's flow feels the same overall from my play).

    I know that only every other rune cycle will Unholy have death runes but it occurs common enough to make it a reasonable place to also get the info for using all it's resources.
    Even so going two cycles of full RP full runes taking death runes into account, unholy is at 14 actions. DW frost under the assumption of master simple(even if you do masterfrost you're not obliterating twice) takes 22 globals. Granted this isn't a realistic scenerio in a raiding environment and if you have full runes on top of full RP twice you're playing wrong and this isn't even taking into account tier 75.

    I guess my point is, yes unholy cam feel a bit spammy due to AMS soaking, but that doesn't mean that it equals the APM of frost. Frost is pretty crazy in terms of APM. And thats why I like the spec. Unholy has always felt slower to me and it does indeed typically have less APM than frost.

  18. #518
    I had an idea that would basically solve all these problems, giving us the advantages of both being gcd-locked as well as not being gcd-locked:

    Reduce our rune regen speed by a lot, but give us a free filler spell (BS could be a interesting choice, but I'd prefer IT since it's ranged)

    That way, you are able to pool resources for burst damage while still having a fun and fast-paced gameplay. On top of that, it's another button to press, making our rotation more interesting.

  19. #519
    Quote Originally Posted by HiFish View Post
    I had an idea that would basically solve all these problems, giving us the advantages of both being gcd-locked as well as not being gcd-locked:

    Reduce our rune regen speed by a lot, but give us a free filler spell (BS could be a interesting choice, but I'd prefer IT since it's ranged)

    That way, you are able to pool resources for burst damage while still having a fun and fast-paced gameplay. On top of that, it's another button to press, making our rotation more interesting.
    So you want ice slam spam to return like it was in wotlk for blood dk tanks? I think reducing the regen would be a good idea and a filler would also be a good idea, but have the filler somehow interact with our runes while still doing damage. Maybe too much like a hunter, but homogenization between classes is already at an all time high.

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