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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Point me to another class who can use a Tranquility-like spell (Healing Tide) whilst slowing the entire enemy group (Earthbind), dealing damage (Name a Fire totem), remove AND make the raid immune to movement impairing effects (Windwalk), followed by an AoE stun (Capacitor), contributing extra passive smart healing to the group (Healing Stream), extending their burst period by an extra minute (Earth Elemental), ALL THE WHILE NOT STOPPING DAMAGE ON THE BOSS FOR MORE THAN A GLOBAL.

    You can't? Well gee, maybe it's cause all those totems pretty much cover the utility of EVERY class in ONE.
    Druids.
    warlocks
    dks
    mages
    hunters
    rogues
    warriors
    monks

    Also every class has at least half of what you listed and is 2x stronger and more effective.
    Also you can't count Earth Elemenental as part of your burst as it does crap damage and will be doing even less damage in wod. It is a damage reduction/healing increase cd on a stick that takes at least 2 gcds to use. Which means you have to have it out beforehand for it to be effective.

    Furthermore you need to understand the distinction between utility and effective utility. Most of our utility is worthless unless we are on top of the mobs or we take totemic projection. Which taking projection makes us take 2 GCDs to use our utlity.

    Shamans basically have a garage full of cars with no wheels on them. They look cool and have a lot of potential but they don't go anywhere.

  2. #242
    Not going to quote the above post because posts are getting to a silly length now, so I'm just going to bullet point my points instead

    1 - Cancelling your EET for a fear break is an intelligent choice because you have to work out which is more beneficial to you. If you don't mind being feared for the duration, but your EET is serving a key purpose to you then you save Tremor for later. You have to weigh up the pros of what you gain vs the cons of what you lose. That is what the entire element restriction mechanic is about

    2 - When I say flavor I'm not talking about the balance of the abilities at all. Totems are meant to be physical objects we use to bind Elementals of varying power to our plane of existance until they break free/we release them, and then we cannot/choose not to bind them again for a period of time (cooldowns + spell durations in flavor form). We only bind one water elemental at a time to prevent angering the Neptulon and his fellow Water Elementals.

    3 - The totem mechanic's weakness is in no way negligible, but you consistantly ignore their benefits. Everything doesn't have to be 1 too 1 either. It's fine if portions of a class are weaker than similar portions of other classes, as long as they have strong portions too. Totems have got weaknesses and are likely weaker than they would be if they were flat ground placed abilities with no totem (well not likely, they would be a lot stronger, as their would have no downside at all). That does not mean however that they are therefor bad. Mechanic don't have to be as powerful as they could possibly be to make then well designed. In fact the opposite is often true.

    Totem Mobility - Our Elementals are as mobile as they need to be, hell even on Garrosh if you drop one of your Elementals on the outside plane and then get sucked in with you and follow you through the 'upstairs' plane (I'm not sure of its correct name off the top of my head). I've had that happen to me several times and never once had them bug out. It is infinitely better than it used to be.

    Our CC breakers work like a counterpart to how auras work (because that is what totems were originally designed to be counterparts too, now they just do more than only things auras would do as persistent auras are not very interesting), and as such I see no reason why they need to be mobile. Again, of course it would be better if they were I don't argue with that, I just disagree that is has to be done in order for them to be of sufficient value. Capacitor totem is basically a bomb we place on the ground, and with Totemic Projection it would work fine imo.

    Totems being killable - Being dispellable probably is a less potent weakness than being killable by everyone, but that is partially countered by both the sheer number of them that we have, the sheer variety of them that we have and also the fact that we are one of the classes that can do the dispelling. This is something that starts getting into the discussion of the entire class rather than just one portion of the class, which at the end of the day is the thing that matters. Mages can also dispel, but we can heal. Going down this track is probably a bad idea from my PoV because its going to cause a lot of further debate, but I suppose that is a good thing. The whole class matters, not just the single mechanic it has, when defining the strength of a class.

    Of course, saying that, you can talk about the strength of a mechanic alone, especially when you believe so strongly that is has an issue, I'm just pointing out that other sections of a class can have some relevance as well.

    Totems being silenced - Totems are physical objects that we imbue with power in order to bind/we request the help of the elements to bind elemental power to them. We do not carry around in our backpack a 'Windwalk Totem' that we just drop on the floor and get that power. That isn't how it works. As for being dispelled, again they can't be dispelled because its the totem that provides the power, not us/the buff. As long as you remain within the influence of the Elemental providing power through the totem, you continually remain affected by it. Destroying the totem (either by the Shaman removing it or by it being destroyed by their enemies) releases this Elemental and ends the effect they were providing.

    PvP choices effecting Talent choice - You say 'obviously everyone will go for SET'. That isn't obvious at all. If it specifically disadvantages you in some way that causes you to be too weak to compete, then of course you wouldn't take it. If it is strong enough to counteract that weakness, then great, whats the complaint you've got this awesome new spell that is so powerful you don't need your other air totems anymore, at least whilst it is in effect.

    I disagree that taking 2 elements of the same type in your talents forces a Totem Tier choice. I think it is again still a choice. If the weaknesses of CPT and Earthbind Totem are too much for you that you feel they are too weak without Totemic Projection and that that weakness overcomes the need for both WWT being used at the same time as you have SET out then you take TP. If you feel you need your cooldowns up more often, ie you want to go for a major burst comp and if you haven't won within the first 2 minutes you will probably lose, then you might want Call of the Elements to give you a more uptime on your WWT. This choice may well end up being a no-brainer and one of them is clearly superior, but at least up till this point I have seen no evidence to say which of the three level 100 talents is the one anyone will pick, as no-one has even used them yet.

    Totems are unique - Firstly, I disagree that it is only the effects that matter. From a balance perspective in PvE it is, but in PvP we have at length discussed that it clearly isn't. From a 'feel' perspective they are clearly different. The way a class feels and the reason it plays that way are just as important to many people as how powerful an ability is.

    As for each totem needing to be looked at in isolation, I agree to a point, but also disagree. WoW is not a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors. There is nothing wrong with 1 ability being weaker than another. There is an issue if an ability has some glaring flaw/bug/whatever that needs to be addressed, and that is why change happens. However, just because 1 ability is weaker than another on a completely different class does not mean that this ability is now bad and should be removed/reworked, especially if the class that has said weaker ability has many other options that make up for it.

    Utility - So what do you define as Utility. Is CC not an portion of Utility. In my head there is the core of what your spec is meant to do (DPS = how much DPS you do, Healer = How much healing you do, Tank = How much damage you can take), then everything outside of that core is utility. That is why offhealing for a DPS Shaman is utility for them, and being able to do damage is utility for Resto. How much CC you bring is certainly utility. We bring an aweful lot of utility in many different forms. Besides, my point was simply that many classes are losing a significant amount of utility in WoD, which is certainly true, and that whilst some of that impacts us (DR), we are being left fairly untouched in comparison.

    1 too 1 comparisons - Grounding Totem absorbs any spell aimed at anyone, whilst Spell Reflect is only at the one target. Warriors can Talent for an ability that essentially is Glyphed Grounding Totem, but it is a talent for them, and has a 1 minute cooldown, vs the 35 second cooldown Grounding has when Glyphed, and the 15 second cooldown is has when not. Beserker's Rage is again, only on the player that cast it, whilst Tremor affects everyone. Earthbind Totem activates instantly, whilst Freezing Trap can end up in a situation where it doesn't get activated at all.

    1 too 1 comparisons are in the end rather silly, because that is not how the game works. Some abilities are stronger than others, but its the class they belong too as a whole that truely matters.

    Totems being broken without elemental restrictions - I've said many times, I don't think they would be brokenly overpowered at all. I just don't think removing the restriction is entirely necessary, and I enjoy the choices it causes me to make. Would I like it if the change was made? Hell yes, its a flat buff, everyone likes getting buffs. That is not my point. My point is I disagree that is it necessary, and I believe it would honestly be a shame if they did it, because I like the choices it causes me to make.

    Totems are the most counterable thing - I disagree. Hunter traps have a bigger flaw in that they actually require your enemy to activate them. If the Hunter misplays/the target outplays they can literally take 1 step to the left and counter the entire ability. A well played hunter will not allow this to happen, either with well placed abilities or with the use of external CC to ensure that the trap gets its full effectiveness. That is almost the exact same situation a totem has. Sure, totems like Earthbind and SlT do not really have this option because you have to drop them in your enemies face, but drop them in the right place and you can still protect them. Drop Earthbind behind a wall or drop it so that it is right at the end of the Warrior baring down on you and force him to take several steps away from you to kill it (in which case it has served it's job anyway).


  3. #243
    Quote Originally Posted by shammypie View Post
    Which taking projection makes us take 2 GCDs to use our utlity.
    Totemic projection is not on the GCD, you just require a GCD for the totem.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Totemic projection is not on the GCD, you just require a GCD for the totem.
    I think the big issue with the way Totemic Projection works is you drop the totem and then you move it. It should work like trap launcher. Otherwise you end up with losing uptime of your totems, or in a couple of cases that have happened to me you accidentally pop Totemic Projection and move your totems because you are in a hurry, but you popped it too early and move everything but the totem you wanted to move because you placed it after the move.

    However, this would mean that it would only work on a totem by totem basis, rather than moving ALL your totems, which would actually be a direct nerf to the ability (unable to drop all the totems you want then move them all out of LoS), so I do understand why it works this way. I just would prefer it to be single totems.

    Another way they could do it would be to do it the trap launcher way, but remove the cooldown from TP and just allow the cooldown of the totems themselves to manage it, however this would be a flat *buff* to the spell, because you could scatter your totems and make them incredibly hard to counter. Throw your HTT 30 yards one direction, throw your MTT 30 yards in the other (think Nagrand arena, one totem behind each pillar). That would be pretty f**king sweet though mwahahahhahaa.
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2014-06-06 at 04:07 PM.


  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post

    We already have a talent that lets us put down two of each totem type. (Except fire. Which they tested and conveniently determined to be overpowered, so they took fire out of the talent.) I listed three because removing the restriction on totem types means you can put down ALL of your totems of each type. Like I said in my last post, if you think Earth Elemental being tied to a totem is stupid, feel free to argue that and I'll side with you on it. But using Earthbind and Tremor together with Windwalk, Capacitor, and Grounding means you're slowing the enemy group, freeing your group of all snares and slows, absorbing the next spell as well as breaking your group out of all fear/sleep/charm effects. Hell, some people already argue that things like Bubble and Ice Block are too overpowered and you're basically suggesting giving just that to Shamans and THEN SOME.

    Slowing a group (Or better yet, SNARING a group with Earthbind) while Capacitor is up uses two cooldowns right now, and can be hard to land even at the best of times. That's a necessary detriment. Snaring a group while freeing your entire group and preventing damage and stunning the enemy group and recovering significant amounts of health leaves no detriment.
    In order to do the combo you just suggested it would take at least 5 gcds, require you to be on top of the group you are speaking off. And hope they are stupid enough to just stand there in your effects and not even bother to kill the totems doing so.

    I think what you fail to understand and everyone is trying to drill into you is that we are the only class with such restrictions. We are not arguing that high powered abilites shouldn't come with restrictions. We are saying that no other class has them so to impose them on us is asinine.

    anyway i'm done with this troll
    In order to what you just listed

  6. #246
    Herald of the Titans Eliot123's Avatar
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    I disagree about TP working like trap launcher, in certain cases you want some totems (e.g. Spirit Link/Capacitor) to make a tick or two before projecting them to another place. If it stays a talent removing/reducing the cooldown would be nice though.
    Last edited by Eliot123; 2014-06-06 at 04:28 PM.
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  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    I think the big issue with the way Totemic Projection works is you drop the totem and then you move it. It should work like trap launcher
    I don't think they need trap launcher treatment because it is rather rare that i need to teleport my totem right away to another position after i dropped it.

    I mean since TP is not on the GCD how much time do you actually lose? I do not think there are many totems around that need to be timed that exactly to be effective or fulfill their purpose.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot123 View Post
    I disagree about TP working like trap launcher, in certain cases you want some totems (e.g. Spirit Link/Capacitor) to make a tick or two before projecting them to another place. If it stays a talent removing/reducing the cooldown would be nice though.
    Fair enough. Didn't really occur to me the fact the current way it works effectively allows the totem to work in two different places, which is actually a nice benefit. You've changed my mind, I like the way it works because of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    I don't think they need trap launcher treatment because it is rather rare that i need to teleport my totem right away to another position after i dropped it.

    I mean since TP is not on the GCD how much time do you actually lose? I do not think there are many totems around that need to be timed that exactly to be effective or fulfill their purpose.
    It isn't that long, but you will always lose the first tick, however the point before reminded me that actually that is sometimes a benefit not always a loss. Maybe after they make it a baseline ability (Blizz plz) they could add a Major Glyph to make it work like Trap Launcher, that would be cool (so situations where you need to use SlT on the melee group but fairly useless on spread out Ranged players wouldn't lose the extra tick for example, or if you only want to move 1 totem - Earthbind say - but not every other one you have placed).
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2014-06-06 at 04:40 PM.


  9. #249
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Just tweeted Celestalon asking why Elementals are still totem-bound... I mean, I understand the 1-minute restrictions between themselves, but keeping them as totems baffles me and interferes with the current totem mechanics, it's quite annoying. By this point, you'd think they'd be proper cooldowns. Especially with the introduction of the Storm Elemental... it'll impede on a lot of our totemic mechanics, in addition to it being a talent so they're going to have to do something to make it compete.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitheqt View Post
    Just tweeted Celestalon asking why Elementals are still totem-bound... I mean, I understand the 1-minute restrictions between themselves, but keeping them as totems baffles me and interferes with the current totem mechanics, it's quite annoying. By this point, you'd think they'd be proper cooldowns. Especially with the introduction of the Storm Elemental... it'll impede on a lot of our totemic mechanics, in addition to it being a talent so they're going to have to do something to make it compete.
    From a lore perspective, its the totems that bind them too us and make them fight for us (depending on the affiliation of the Shaman it is either enforced slavery Warlock style, or it is more of an offering that the Elementals answer willingly). From a game play standpoint I can see them removing totems from Elementals though, especially as they already follow us around anyway.


  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Razhiel View Post
    I would wait until Beta comes out before making statements like that. We still haven't seen all of the changes.
    Lol it's only alpha - no changes. Lol it's only beta - no changes. Lol game just released wait for patch - no changes. Patch arrives - no changes. See where this thinking gets you?

  12. #252
    Only 2 things I'd like to be reintroduced for shaman.

    Totems that actually mean something, they're an iconic part of the class, but at the minute, they feel more like a burden than a "oooh these totems are really cool" kinda thing.

    The option to play 2h, I know, I know, so many people gonna say "not possible due to blah blah blah blah blah" but I enjoyed playing 2h enhancement in vanilla, it wouldn't be beyond the wit of man to have something similar to how frost plays, main limitation is loot now sadly.

  13. #253
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    From a lore perspective, its the totems that bind them too us and make them fight for us (depending on the affiliation of the Shaman it is either enforced slavery Warlock style, or it is more of an offering that the Elementals answer willingly). From a game play standpoint I can see them removing totems from Elementals though, especially as they already follow us around anyway.
    Yeah, I understand the lore, but if that were really an excuse they used to justify them not being cooldowns by themselves, then I'd have to go on a rampage and list every ability that impacts lore just as much but was changed to fit game-play needs. As they keep saying themselves, game-play is their main focus and I don't know any reason as to why they wouldn't be allowed to be single cooldowns as they're receiving some big reductions in Warlords, and the utility we'd get from Primal Elementalist would be justified because we're taking talents, in addition to Storm Elemental, which is also a talent. I also don't enjoy the fact that Primal Elementalist and Storm Elemental are both talents that double-dip with each other...

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Totems are the most counterable thing - I disagree. Hunter traps have a bigger flaw in that they actually require your enemy to activate them. If the Hunter misplays/the target outplays they can literally take 1 step to the left and counter the entire ability. A well played hunter will not allow this to happen, either with well placed abilities or with the use of external CC to ensure that the trap gets its full effectiveness. That is almost the exact same situation a totem has. Sure, totems like Earthbind and SlT do not really have this option because you have to drop them in your enemies face, but drop them in the right place and you can still protect them. Drop Earthbind behind a wall or drop it so that it is right at the end of the Warrior baring down on you and force him to take several steps away from you to kill it (in which case it has served it's job anyway).
    Come WoD Totems will be the most "counterable" things, since traps will literally activate instantaneously. Hunters aoe slow can be placed with x radius baseline while Shaman can either risk going up to their opponent to drop their totem or talent for a lackluster pseudo-trap launcher that works based on elevation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chubathingy View Post
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  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitheqt View Post
    Yeah, I understand the lore, but if that were really an excuse they used to justify them not being cooldowns by themselves, then I'd have to go on a rampage and list every ability that impacts lore just as much but was changed to fit game-play needs. As they keep saying themselves, game-play is their main focus and I don't know any reason as to why they wouldn't be allowed to be single cooldowns as they're receiving some big reductions in Warlords, and the utility we'd get from Primal Elementalist would be justified because we're taking talents, in addition to Storm Elemental, which is also a talent. I also don't enjoy the fact that Primal Elementalist and Storm Elemental are both talents that double-dip with each other...
    I actually think the fact the talents work together is cool. As long as SET isn't useless without PE or visa-versa I think its cool. That could be easier said than done though, because for each talent to be balanced within their respective tiers they have to be balanced both with and without the other one. That definitely a wait and see for me. However, they have said before they don't mind if some totems make others less effective/even completely useless, so maybe they are okay with the opposite as well.

    That is the issue with throughput talent tiers though I suppose, its very difficult to make them unique enough that they all are useful in their own niche situations. I can't wait to see how SET is, I really hope its actually a niche spell and not just something we always take, because I really enjoy the intention of the talent tiers, being able to change your talents and adapt to the situation.
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2014-06-06 at 05:45 PM.


  16. #256
    Herald of the Titans Eliot123's Avatar
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    Somewhat off-topic but the whole ''iconic'' thing is starting to go through the window in WoW slowly. Pets are iconic for hunters/warlocks yet both (will) have talents to remove the pet.
    The moment when, thanks to transmogrification, your character selection screen looks like the cast of the Downton Abbey.

  17. #257
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    I actually think the fact the talents work together is cool. As long as SET isn't useless without PE or visa-versa I think its cool. That could be easier said than done though, because for each talent to be balanced within their respective tiers they have to be balanced both with and without the other one. That definitely a wait and see for me. However, they have said before they don't mind if some totems make others less effective/even completely useless, so maybe they are okay with the opposite as well.

    That is the issue with throughput talent tiers though I suppose, its very difficult to make them unique enough that they all are useful in their own niche situations. I can't wait to see how SET is, I really hope its actually a niche spell and not just something we always take, because I really enjoy the intention of the talent tiers, being able to change your talents and adapt to the situation.
    And that's usually the problem with Shaman design. They try to balance one ability for all three completely different specs which is completely unreasonable with great examples such as Elemental Blast and Conductivity. The reason we see it working for Druid's, Priests or Paladins is because each spec almost gets an entirely different ability except for the few like the healing tiers, and mobility tiers.

  18. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by Eliot123 View Post
    Somewhat off-topic but the whole ''iconic'' thing is starting to go through the window in WoW slowly. Pets are iconic for hunters/warlocks yet both (will) have talents to remove the pet.
    I haven't actually seem the change for Hunters to remove their pets? Could you link me to that, sounds very interesting and I'd like to know how it works with BM. I just looked up their WoD talent tree and I didn't see anything about that.

    Edit: Leaving that there because I'm an idiot. I just looked it up and the talent changes when not BM (I'm really not a fan of these talents that change based on what spec you are, but whatever). Its Marksmen and Survival only. When you have no pet active you do 30% more damage and provide one of the pet buffs passively. Interesting. However, I think this is a much smaller change for Hunters than it would be to remove Totems for Shaman, as so many of our abilities are tied to totems and would need large reworks to fix, especially as they still do have pets and still do have the Beast Master spec based around pets, it doesn't get this ability.
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2014-06-06 at 06:06 PM.


  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    It isn't that long, but you will always lose the first tick, however the point before reminded me that actually that is sometimes a benefit not always a loss. Maybe after they make it a baseline ability (Blizz plz) they could add a Major Glyph to make it work like Trap Launcher, that would be cool (so situations where you need to use SlT on the melee group but fairly useless on spread out Ranged players wouldn't lose the extra tick for example, or if you only want to move 1 totem - Earthbind say - but not every other one you have placed).
    I could live with a major glyph on this part but changing just Tp just for SlT being slighty more better for such a situational moment would not be wise, i mean you always had to toggle this on / off for almost any other totem.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  20. #260
    Dreadlord Aurokk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    I haven't actually seem the change for Hunters to remove their pets? Could you link me to that, sounds very interesting and I'd like to know how it works with BM. I just looked up their WoD talent tree and I didn't see anything about that.

    Edit: Leaving that there because I'm an idiot. I just looked it up and the talent changes when not BM (I'm really not a fan of these talents that change based on what spec you are, but whatever). Its Marksmen and Survival only. When you have no pet active you do 30% more damage and provide one of the pet buffs passively. Interesting. However, I think this is a much smaller change for Hunters than it would be to remove Totems for Shaman, as so many of our abilities are tied to totems and would need large reworks to fix, especially as they still do have pets and still do have the Beast Master spec based around pets, it doesn't get this ability.
    I'm lurking but to add to your post, that specific talent destroys alot of spells/other talents for non-BM hunters.

    Spirit Bond, Master's Call, Blink Strikes.... etc. There is a big hunter thread about it in their forums.

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