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  1. #61
    I'm not going to argue with the emotional spleen-venting folks, who want Blizz to change a spec, based on that poster's individual desires. There's no logic with those folks.

    That being said, I've probably seen more spot-on, excellent posts in this thread, than I can remember, in a single thread.

    As for me, I've played enhancement PvE, since early BC, and I can attest that the spec has undergone continual change, in that time. Overall, I still love the spec, and don't believe it needs major overhaul. To me, the notion of major overhaul being necessitated by a function of time is absurd. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." The spec is fun, pure and simple. It works well. For anyone who thinks enhancement performs poorly in PvE dps, then the problem is you. L2 Play.

    Tiberria, I agree with your assessment of resto. I think your last post in this tread was excellent, and pretty much sums up the state of resto shaman. I think that Blizz is, as well, and I'm generally positive that they're on the right track. Time will tell.

  2. #62
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Razhiel View Post
    In what way, precisely, do WW and DKs (specifically Frost and/or Unholy) make Enhancment look outdated?
    Both can utilize 2H and DW, both have dual resource systems, both have better integrated talents, both combine short CDs with active abilities.

    Also, why must every (hybrid?) melee spec/class have both DW and 2H playstyles? To the point, why should Enha have a viable 2H spec?
    What's wrong with JUST having one style? Stating that "every other hybrid melee class has both DW and 2H, so Enha should have it too" does NOT make a valid point as to why should Enhance have it as well.
    Enhance should have it as well because they can already equip 2h weapons. They could also historically use those weapons in past iterations. Their excuse for removing this ability was that it was hard to balance. However, DKs and Monks balance this just fine.

    The fact that Enhance can equip weapons they can't use is clunky design.

    And FYI, it would be nice for Elemental and Restoration to get some shield abilities as well. Shaman are the only class in the game that can equip a shield but has not one single ability/passive/cooldown that uses them.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Both can utilize 2H and DW, both have dual resource systems, both have better integrated talents, both combine short CDs with active abilities.

    Enhance should have it as well because they can already equip 2h weapons. They could also historically use those weapons in past iterations. Their excuse for removing this ability was that it was hard to balance. However, DKs and Monks balance this just fine.

    The fact that Enhance can equip weapons they can't use is clunky design.
    The answer to this should really be remove the weapon specializations they will never use, not redesign the class in such a way to allow for them to use them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And FYI, it would be nice for Elemental and Restoration to get some shield abilities as well. Shaman are the only class in the game that can equip a shield but has not one single ability/passive/cooldown that uses them.
    I think the reason they don't is because they are ranged specs. Also, lore wise Shaman are not particularly recognised for using shields, but rather charging into battle with the power of the elements, smashing their foes with empowered strikes. Unlike the stereotypical tanks (sword and board warrior) or Paladins in their stereotypical all gold and white plate armor, we don't really have any affiliation with shields. I think the only reason we can even use them is because Paladins can, and originally we were meant to be the Horde version of Paladins, so could do most of the things paladins could do but in reverse (auras vs totems, offensive dispel vs defensive dispel)


  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And FYI, it would be nice for Elemental and Restoration to get some shield abilities as well. Shaman are the only class in the game that can equip a shield but has not one single ability/passive/cooldown that uses them.
    The reasons because they don't have shield-required abilities are many. But among them, this is prevalent: unlike the other shield-bearing classes (paladins and warriors), the shaman can use other off-handed items like lanterns, books, cricket cages, etc, which, if they had shield-required abilities, would make those abilities unusable, forcing the class to wield only shields, greatly limiting their choices of gear.

    Also, they have enough defensive cooldowns as it is, already.

    (PS: I know holy paladins can also wield shields as well as other off-hand items, but, at the same time, they have no shield-required abilities in their arsenal.)
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2014-06-03 at 05:39 PM.

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  5. #65
    Im undecided wether all these changes will level the playing feel back to a vanilla feel where "bring the player, not the class," truly applied. However one can definitely argue that its just a game wide reset to total faceroll

  6. #66
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthWaderr View Post
    Im undecided wether all these changes will level the playing feel back to a vanilla feel where "bring the player, not the class," truly applied. However one can definitely argue that its just a game wide reset to total faceroll
    I'm sorry what?
    "Bring the player, not the class" is true now in MoP more than ever.
    Vanilla was exactly the opposite. Want to tank? Better be a Warrior. Want to heal? Better be a priest. DPS? Pray that you get a slot for your class besides the 500 rogues and warriors. Pala, shammy, druid? Go home and sulk.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    I'm sorry what?
    "Bring the player, not the class" is true now in MoP more than ever.
    Vanilla was exactly the opposite. Want to tank? Better be a Warrior. Want to heal? Better be a priest. DPS? Pray that you get a slot for your class besides the 500 rogues and warriors. Pala, shammy, druid? Go home and sulk.
    Haha yea it's really funny just how much rose tinted glasses skew some peoples perception of "vanilla" WoW.

  8. #68
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    The answer to this should really be remove the weapon specializations they will never use, not redesign the class in such a way to allow for them to use them.
    It wouldn't be a redesign, it would be a restoration, since Enhancement was originally designed to use 2H weapons. There's also no logical reason why Enhancement can't be both 2h and DW since DKs and Monks prove that such a duality can work and be balanced.

    Also Enhancement is overdue for a spec redesign. The last major one was in WotLK.

    I think the reason they don't is because they are ranged specs. Also, lore wise Shaman are not particularly recognised for using shields, but rather charging into battle with the power of the elements, smashing their foes with empowered strikes. Unlike the stereotypical tanks (sword and board warrior) or Paladins in their stereotypical all gold and white plate armor, we don't really have any affiliation with shields. I think the only reason we can even use them is because Paladins can, and originally we were meant to be the Horde version of Paladins, so could do most of the things paladins could do but in reverse (auras vs totems, offensive dispel vs defensive dispel)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia
    The reasons because they don't have shield-required abilities are many. But among them, this is prevalent: unlike the other shield-bearing classes (paladins and warriors), the shaman can use other off-handed items like lanterns, books, cricket cages, etc, which, if they had shield-required abilities, would make those abilities unusable, forcing the class to wield only shields, greatly limiting their choices of gear.

    Fair points.

  9. #69
    Pit Lord miffy23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It wouldn't be a redesign, it would be a restoration, since Enhancement was originally designed to use 2H weapons. There's also no logical reason why Enhancement can't be both 2h and DW since DKs and Monks prove that such a duality can work and be balanced.

    Also Enhancement is overdue for a spec redesign. The last major one was in WotLK.
    Spec redesigns don't happen because of some elusive schedule somewhere that ordains each and every spec to get a complete rework regularly. They happen when a spec concept feels outdated and clunky in the updated environment of the game, or devs/players aren't happy with it.

    This isn't the case with any of the Shaman specs.

  10. #70
    Stood in the Fire Zeruge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I mained Shaman since vanilla. I grew tired of their treatment, so I mained a Monk in MoP. Shaman was reduced to an alt in MoP. I'm currently leveling him to 90.
    Then everyone's a winner Hope you enjoy your new class more than the old one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually I can, since the other classes are getting significant changes to compensate. Shaman are losing LB on the move and are pretty much remaining the same.
    Given some of your eye-rollable "I know you are but what am I?" style remarks later on in the post I'm not sure why I'm responding to this properly, but elemental still has plenty of on-the-move abilities and utilities. Does it not make sense to you that we don't need anything extra to compensate given that we can already use our time moving to place totems, cast shocks, cast unleash elements, use instant lava surge procs, and most importantly, have a 2 minute cooldown that, like, let's us cast while we move?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So Shaman were perfect in WotLK/Cataclysm and require no change while every other class was significantly flawed and required change?

    You don't really believe that do you?
    No. They received changes that improved them, such as the new totem system and Lava Surge (courtesy of a 4.2 set bonus). But they don't need more changes than those smaller ones because the core of the rotation has been pretty good. What I'm saying is they don't need the Balance Druid style overhaul, the occasional change that makes life more fun will be just great. For instance, working Earthquake into our AoE rotation - Shaman is supposed to be the master of small cluster cleave, but spamming CL is not the most engaging, so it is being changed to weave Earthquake in. That's a good change, but it's not an overhaul, because it didn't need to be overhauled, just improved slightly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So do you believe that Shaman are the most simple class?
    Elemental is one of the most simple specs alongside any hunter spec, arcane mage or combat rogue. Some others are probably around the same simplicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Its important to note that Retribution (and Paladins in general) have also significantly changed since WotLK. Again, do you believe that Shaman are perfect and all other classes required change?
    Retribution definitely needed a change, that spec was really not good until MoP. The whole seal thing back in TBC was a hilariously flawed mechanic, the Inquisition thing was awkward to work with. Enhancement certainly does not suffer from issues along those lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It would go a long way towards making the class less clunky, and move our class' gameplay in a more positive direction. Now please tell me how it benefits Shaman to maintain those lockouts.
    Well, Restoration doesn't use them significantly so that's not important, and as far as I know Enhancement doesn't even use Earth Shock? As for Elemental, as I said, the shock rotation is a core part of the Elemental play style - it's not even clunky as it is, you just need to know what you're doing, which falls nicely into Blizzard's philosophy of "easy to learn, hard to master" for a spec already as simple as Elemental. A great shaman will be better than a good shaman when they master their shock rotation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That would be only the case if the class isn't completely revamped along with that change. Again, the shock and totem limits are only in place to give the class an illusion of depth. In reality those limits are clunky design holdovers that serve no legitimate purpose in the modern game.
    What is an "illusion of depth"? See above for an explanation of why the shock rotation exists. As for the totems, what do you even mean? Totems are a great utility, and they're much better now than they were before MoP. Drop totems every 5 mins just 'cause was poor. Using totems as active abilities in specific situations is a much better idea and is the essence of the shaman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Its important to note that Paralytic poison is being removed from Rogue talents in WoD, so that conflict will no longer exist.

    Shaman? EGT and SBT still conflict with each other.
    Was more just a point of reference towards their philosophy that it really doesn't matter. I don't really understand why you find those two talents to be a problem? You can't place two of *any* totem at the same time, so the talents just conform to the same rules as every other totem. That doesn't mean the talents are bad, because they both have great uses. Perhaps there is reasoning behind them being this way. Perhaps they don't want you to use Stone Bulwark at the same time as your Earth Elemental, or Earthgrab at the same time as Tremor. The totem system could actually allow the spec to be more difficult by making things more restrictive in this way, but it isn't, which tells me that they're rather particular about how much they want to restrict you, which means it was obviously taken into consideration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Name them.
    Heh, I'm not going to be your personal assistant and go through every talent just to satisfy your need to argue with people. But off the top of my head, abilities such as Arcane Barrage, Cobra Shot, Revealing Strike, stuff like that, have no talents that change their effects.

    It's at this point I realised you're actually just here to have an argument with someone. Pretty uncool, really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Fulmination, MSW, and Tidal Waves aren't spells, they are secondary systems that aren't true resources, like the Druid Eclipse system, and the Monk Brew system. Guess what? Druids and Monks both have talents that benefit Brews and the Eclipse system.
    I'm struggling to see why monks having a talent that affects brews and druids having a talent that affects eclipse means shamans need a talent that affects fulmination, maelstrom weapon and tidal waves. Other classes have weak talent rows too. Mage level 90 for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Howabout using some actual imagination? That would be a start. I would like to at least see the level of creativity and boldness I'm seeing emerge in other specs.

    BTW, why no talents pulled from all the Dark Shaman we fought in SoO? Why no new talents from the Thunder King raid boss?
    What would you add then? And what would you replace?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Really? I thought you played a Rogue. Currently as a Rogue you need to build CPs as quickly as possible on a target in order to perform finishing moves. Imagine now what it will be like to get 3 CPs and a target dies. You now have 3 CPs stored to do what ever you want. You can heal yourself with Recuperate, or save your CPs to open up with a powerful finisher. Its a pretty major change to Rogue gameplay.
    You can do that now. Non-damaging abilities such as Slice and Dice and Recuperate consume combo points off enemies that are dead, and Redirect places the combo points on a new target.

    So literally nothing changes apart from the removal of Redirect, which is just a quality of life change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It would be nice if Shaman got a similar significant change. I guess losing LB on the move was a significant change in the opposite direction...
    It's not significant considering all other classes are getting the same mobility treatment, as discussed.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Spec redesigns don't happen because of some elusive schedule somewhere that ordains each and every spec to get a complete rework regularly. They happen when a spec concept feels outdated and clunky in the updated environment of the game, or devs/players aren't happy with it.

    This isn't the case with any of the Shaman specs.
    Pretty much this. Possibly upsetting a large portion of the community, currently silent because they have nothing to complain about, by completely changing how a class plays just for the sake of it is an all round bad move for Blizzard. They have to dedicate significant man power into both designing and then balancing this new play style, as well as continuing to support the old one, and all with no guarantee of it actually being well received. There is a reason they removed it in the first place, because it was stupid to balance and didn't really bring anything extra to the class beyond 'trololol I can 1 shot you'.


  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Spec redesigns don't happen because of some elusive schedule somewhere that ordains each and every spec to get a complete rework regularly. They happen when a spec concept feels outdated and clunky in the updated environment of the game, or devs/players aren't happy with it.

    This isn't the case with any of the Shaman specs.
    I share this sentiment, however there are some mechanics/talents that need urgent revision. Searing Totem (actually fire totems in general) is one such example.

    Amazing Sig & Avatar by Serryn <3

  13. #73
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miffy23 View Post
    Spec redesigns don't happen because of some elusive schedule somewhere that ordains each and every spec to get a complete rework regularly. They happen when a spec concept feels outdated and clunky in the updated environment of the game, or devs/players aren't happy with it.

    This isn't the case with any of the Shaman specs.
    Enhancement and Elemental are both overdue for a spec redesign. They haven't been significantly changed since WotLK.

    I won't comment on Resto since I don't play it, but Tiberria makes good arguments on why that spec is overdue for an overhaul as well.

    Based purely on talents and our sinking class population the evidence for a Shaman overhaul is pretty clear.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Pretty much this. Possibly upsetting a large portion of the community, currently silent because they have nothing to complain about, by completely changing how a class plays just for the sake of it is an all round bad move for Blizzard. They have to dedicate significant man power into both designing and then balancing this new play style, as well as continuing to support the old one, and all with no guarantee of it actually being well received. There is a reason they removed it in the first place, because it was stupid to balance and didn't really bring anything extra to the class beyond 'trololol I can 1 shot you'.
    Priests, Druids, Warriors, Monks, Rogues, and Hunters are all getting significant gameplay changes in WoD.

    You're telling me that Shaman don't need at least a refresher on their older mechanics?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas82 View Post
    The expansion won't be out until November. There's plenty of time for many things to change.
    Right... because that has happened how many times? Zero? We're always left to rot, because others (especially mages) know how to cry.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Enhancement and Elemental are both overdue for a spec redesign. They haven't been significantly changed since WotLK.

    I won't comment on Resto since I don't play it, but Tiberria makes good arguments on why that spec is overdue for an overhaul as well.

    Based purely on talents and our sinking class population the evidence for a Shaman overhaul is pretty clear.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Priests, Druids, Warriors, Monks, Rogues, and Hunters are all getting significant gameplay changes in WoD.

    You're telling me that Shaman don't need at least a refresher on their older mechanics?
    Its just not true that shaman haven't changed since Wrath. For Elemental, Fulmination and Lava Surge have both been added since then, completely changing our rotation from something you could literally macro if you had the right amounts of haste to something you have to manage. Before Cata Lava Lash was so weak it was debated whether Flametounge Weapon should even be used by Enhancement Shaman, and in Mists it was changed so that it completely revamped the way their AoE rotation worked.

    In regards to totems, they completely revamped the system, moving it away from stat sticks and towards active abilities that you actually notice when you use. The only thing that remains as a stat stick is Searing Totem, which I have been openly against for a while. The only other remaining factor is that they are still totems, but that is like saying buffs should get reworked because they are still buffs.


  16. #76
    Moderator Blithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Its just not true that shaman haven't changed since Wrath. For Elemental, Fulmination and Lava Surge have both been added since then, completely changing our rotation from something you could literally macro if you had the right amounts of haste to something you have to manage. Before Cata Lava Lash was so weak it was debated whether Flametounge Weapon should even be used by Enhancement Shaman, and in Mists it was changed so that it completely revamped the way their AoE rotation worked.

    In regards to totems, they completely revamped the system, moving it away from stat sticks and towards active abilities that you actually notice when you use. The only thing that remains as a stat stick is Searing Totem, which I have been openly against for a while. The only other remaining factor is that they are still totems, but that is like saying buffs should get reworked because they are still buffs.
    I still think Fulmination is just a shitty band-aid fix, and an excuse for Elemental to use Lightning Shield.
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    If you just love being that guy that purposely, or accidentally carries out the action of "letting them win", roll a shaman, and get a FREE vacation to the Ashran Graveyard with scenic tombstones and a magnificent sunset view of your faction hiding in the bubble as DKS, hunters and Treesus Christ roflstomp your base, and all you have to do is call this number!
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  17. #77
    Stood in the Fire Zeruge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitheqt View Post
    I still think Fulmination is just a shitty band-aid fix, and an excuse for Elemental to use Lightning Shield.
    And a good one at that.

    Shock rotation <3

  18. #78
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Its just not true that shaman haven't changed since Wrath. For Elemental, Fulmination and Lava Surge have both been added since then, completely changing our rotation from something you could literally macro if you had the right amounts of haste to something you have to manage.
    Fulmination and Lava Surge were both introduced in Cataclysm. Compare the changes between Elemental and the the other two hybrid DPS casters (Spriests and Bdruids) since that time.

    Big difference.

    Before Cata Lava Lash was so weak it was debated whether Flametounge Weapon should even be used by Enhancement Shaman, and in Mists it was changed so that it completely revamped the way their AoE rotation worked.
    Because Enhance had severe AoE issues. Blizzard was repairing a design flaw in the spec to keep it competitive, not overhauling the spec like it needed to do. In other words you're bringing up band-aids. Other classes have recieved do-overs. Enhance needs a do-over.

    In regards to totems, they completely revamped the system, moving it away from stat sticks and towards active abilities that you actually notice when you use. The only thing that remains as a stat stick is Searing Totem, which I have been openly against for a while. The only other remaining factor is that they are still totems, but that is like saying buffs should get reworked because they are still buffs.
    Actually they weren't reworked. All that happened is that Blizzard removed aura/buff totems and introduced more ability totems. If you disagree please tell what has really changed? We always had ability totems. If anything the system is actually worse because I can't drop 4 totems at once like I could in cataclysm.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-06-03 at 07:11 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Its just not true that shaman haven't changed since Wrath. For Elemental, Fulmination and Lava Surge have both been added since then, completely changing our rotation from something you could literally macro if you had the right amounts of haste to something you have to manage. Before Cata Lava Lash was so weak it was debated whether Flametounge Weapon should even be used by Enhancement Shaman, and in Mists it was changed so that it completely revamped the way their AoE rotation worked.

    In regards to totems, they completely revamped the system, moving it away from stat sticks and towards active abilities that you actually notice when you use. The only thing that remains as a stat stick is Searing Totem, which I have been openly against for a while. The only other remaining factor is that they are still totems, but that is like saying buffs should get reworked because they are still buffs.
    don't forget the elemental aoe changed during cata. we first had fs and fire nova which spreaded it, then we got earthquake as channeled spell, then we got cl spam cause eq got a cd, low dmg etc.

  20. #80
    Herald of the Titans Eliot123's Avatar
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    Let's not pretend the totem ''revamp'' was a huge thing. The change didn't have any big impact on anyone who was playing shaman for more then 2 months, they basically just changed buff sticks into auras and added a ~clunky AoE stun and a ''push-this-on-CD'' minor raid cooldown. On the scale of meaningful mechanic changes of a class from 1 to 10 this would qualify as 0.2.
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