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  1. #101
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    The changes to Balance and Shadow literally made me stop playing those classes entirely, and I mained a balance druid for a significant period of time with a priest alt for fun. They're clunky changes made purely for the sake of changing the class and personally, I'd prefer if they didn't get changed at all because the changes were the stupidest, unnecessary changes I'd ever seen.
    Then you should be happy. Both are getting changed (again) in WoD.

  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post


    They screw up numbers for everyone on every expansion start, that's why numbers changes are extremely common for EVERYONE at the start of EVERY expansion.

    T11 left Shaman as the only healing class without a major healing cooldown. They thought that would be ok. They were wrong, they righted said wrong. That's not screwing them up, that's called making a mistake.

    Shaman have also been the strongest healers available in many tiers. It was actually a detriment to not have a resto shaman in DS if I remember correctly.
    thats the problem in first tier none of classes are so broken as shaman as of ds only for spine shaman was neede because of overtunned fight, shaman was good in ds because they buffed HR again and abuse of lightning bolt spam mana regen

  3. #103
    Dreadlord Harmonious's Avatar
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    ***alpha***

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I said "significant change". Fulmination amounts to a procc that boosts the damage of Earth Shock. I don't consider that a significant change. However instead of arguing that, I simply moved the argument to more fertile ground. The title of the thread is the lack of changes within the class. Its quite apparent that some feel that no change is okay, while others feel that the lack of change compared to other classes is a problem.
    That completely changed the way we managed our rotation, bringing in the need for shock management where before the only time we cared was 'Oh I'm moving, should I frost shock or just refresh Flame Shock again?'. And what about Lava Surge? Giving us something rotational that involved reactions rather than watching cooldowns.

    Also, please stop with the unnecessary digs at the character of me or others who disagree that major change is needed. 'Others are okay with no change' is neither a necessary comment nor an accurate one. There are many changes I think that need to be done, and that I want to be done, I just disagree with some of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Fixing an issue isn't a significant change or revamp, its fixing the mess you created. Why is a complete overhaul needed? Because many Shaman mechanics haven't been changed since Vanilla, while others are simply leftover design holes that Blizzard never fixed or addressed (2H Enhance).

    Its not change for changes sake. Its change so that the Shaman class can match their peers.
    Every change done in WoW ever was to fix an issue. Whether that issue was stale game play (addition of Lava Surge to ele rotation), weak abilities (class buffs), too strong abilities (class nerfs), uninteresting choices (old talent system) or anything else. I just don't understand how you can say some changes other classes get are alright and 'count', but the changes we get don't count because they 'had to be done'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually majority of current totems are the same totems we had in Cataclysm. We had Tremor Totem, Grounding Totem, Searing Totem, Healing Stream Totem, Stone Claw Totem, Mana Tide Totem, SLT, etc. So how are they any less interactive then than they are now?
    Tremor Totem was changed in Cata to be more reactive rather than preemptive, to follow the philosophy they were developing for totems. Grounding Totem has no reason to be changed, its just a spell absorb mechanic. Searing Totem I've said needs to change. Healing Stream Totem has changed significantly, it works completely differently to how it used too, but again needs change. Stone Claw Totem doesn't even exist anymore. Mana Tide Totem and SLT remain the same as from Cata as, like the Post-Cata Tremor Totem, they fit the model for what totems are meant to be now.

    Why does every ability need a major overhaul if it works? These totems fit the philosophy of what totems are meant to be, reactive cooldowns, so why do they need a rework? The only reason I seem to see is 'because we want change', but at the same time people complain that we don't have unique abilities anymore. Our totems are the most unique thing about us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Um, they did the exact same thing in Cataclysm and even WotLk. If I had a Mage bearing down on me, I still dropped Grounding Totem. If I needed a shield, I used glyphed Stone Claw Totem. If I needed to stop a fear I dropped Tremor totem. The only thing that massive totem revamp did was take away buff totems, and forced us to use 4 GCDs as opposed to 1 GCD since they removed the Shaman ability that allowed us to summon 4 totems at once.
    Yeah, and the totem philosophy has always worked pretty well in PvP, because you didn't care purely about throughput, so you were okay totem dancing. They removed all the totem fluff (buff totems) to allow for you to do this without any punishment at all, and to also make it so that PvE got to experience this as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    All the dumb totem limits that existed then still exist now.
    Just as the 'dumb limits' of 'normal' buffs still exist. They can still be purged (apart from a unique and powerful few). Every ability in the game has some kind of weakness, even if that weakness is just 'it has a cooldown' or 'it costs me resources to use'. There is no perfect ability in the whole game, thats the way it is meant to be.
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2014-06-03 at 08:46 PM.


  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
    ***alpha***
    and because of ppl like this we are so bad on realise. shaman crying is muted because of players yelling we are fine its only alfa , its only beta, its only start of tier we will get fixed next tier, BUT OTHER CLASSES CRY MORE and getting attention.

  6. #106
    from my pvp point of view, hex is 45 CD long when polymorph is 15-20 seconds, when i look at all the mobility of all melee classes: warrior, ret, DK, feral druid, monks, rogue they can do alot to close the gap between them and their target. the self heals of ret, feral, rogue, warlock, monk, DKs outweight ours unless we pop ascendance but even then if they stun us long enough our ascendance is nullified.

    I'm not saying we're bad, or we need a huge buff but some love like the rest of the specs and classes got would be great. only good thing blizzard has done for us is the DR of all CCs so now we can't get trained in an opener.

  7. #107
    If anything the lack of massive shaman changes is making me want to play my shaman in WoD since I don't care for the changes made to locks in WoD after I stopped playing my druid with MoP when they decided to split feral into 2 specs.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by mrinvisable2 View Post
    and because of ppl like this we are so bad on realise. shaman crying is muted because of players yelling we are fine its only alfa , its only beta, its only start of tier we will get fixed next tier, BUT OTHER CLASSES CRY MORE and getting attention.
    Whilst its true that you should air your opinions on your class, and what you think should change, there is a vast difference between 'who cries more gets more' and that. There are millions of people who play this game, just because the small community that you interact with often say something, does not mean that the entire community thinks that. Blizzard has to take this into account.

    I do agree however, that blindly saying **alpha** isn't the way to go either.
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2014-06-03 at 09:05 PM.


  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Whilst its true that you should air your opinions on your class, and what you think should change, there is a vast difference between 'who cries more gets more' and that. There are millions of people who play this game, just because the small community that you interact with often say something, does not mean that the entire community thinks that. Blizzard has to take this into account.

    I do agree however, that blindly saying **alpha** isn't the way to go either, and is highly nonconstructive.

    i would like some improvements and bit tweaks for shamans one in a while like could EB add just to ele , i cane live without that
    BUT I DEMAND FOR FIRST TIME ATLEAST FOR 5TH EXP FINALLY BALANCE SHAMAN TO BE ON PAR FOR FIRST TIER, and that is general source of complains about shaman game play as not enough buffs shamans are getting and ppl start to feel that mechanics are at fault.

    and you cant argue about that shamans are horrible balanced almost every time.

  10. #110
    Stood in the Fire Zeruge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrinvisable2 View Post
    i would like some improvements and bit tweaks for shamans one in a while like could EB add just to ele , i cane live without that
    BUT I DEMAND FOR FIRST TIME ATLEAST FOR 5TH EXP FINALLY BALANCE SHAMAN TO BE ON PAR FOR FIRST TIER, and that is general source of complains about shaman game play as not enough buffs shamans are getting and ppl start to feel that mechanics are at fault.

    and you cant argue about that shamans are horrible balanced almost every time.
    Elemental was fine in tier 14, I know that much. I did rather well this whole expansion, and whilst the guild I was in at the start of it really didn't have good damage dealers at the time (or even anything close in some instances) which led to me usually being top or second on our damage meters, I always got ranked and always managed to raise the bar for how well elemental can perform. So, I'm really sorry, but I don't believe that the spec itself is at fault, I think people just have to get better at getting the most out of their spec.

    I think that came out a lot more insulting than I thought, but the point is that it is possible to do very well, so if people aren't then they're not getting the most out of their spec.
    Last edited by Zeruge; 2014-06-03 at 09:15 PM.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithgroth View Post
    You are all just being loud and ungrateful. We don't even have a single problem or quality life issues. Everything is so perfect, we never ever need a slightest change.
    Maybe except new icons.
    Hahaha, yeah. With the new Ghost Wolf model, we'll own every bg and arena for years to come . People will just puke rainbows till they suffocate^^.
    Stop being a small group of loud people. Blizz only listens to the ones posting constructive feedback. Obviously shaman players are not capable of such :P.

    To those people saying the class/spec is fun and fine: Are you talking pve or pvp? Because as I see it, there's a BIG difference in having to deal with cpt/hex, totems in general, gw/sprints and other parts in pve than having their numerous weaknesses exploited in pvp. Ele being a turret again in WoD will be an annoiance in pve, but it will kill the spec in pvp, really. Ever being kited relentlessly in pvp as an enh? Not fun. Ascendence, WWT and WW aren't always avaiable, especially in arena. And in WoD, pvp uotime well be much more important than now, because Ascendence being nerfed means we'll be much more dependant on killing people by piling on pressure over longer periods of time, instead of globaling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  12. #112
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    That completely changed the way we managed our rotation, bringing in the need for shock management where before the only time we cared was 'Oh I'm moving, should I frost shock or just refresh Flame Shock again?'. And what about Lava Surge? Giving us something rotational that involved reactions rather than watching cooldowns.
    You weren't casting Lightning Bolts and Earth Shock before Fulmination? The only thing Fulmination did was prioritize Earth Shock while Flame Shock and/or Lava Burst was on cooldown. Lava Surge pulled Lava Burst off of cooldown, and then made Lava Burst instant cast. QoL change? Certainly. Significant change? Not really.

    Every change done in WoW ever was to fix an issue. Whether that issue was stale game play (addition of Lava Surge to ele rotation), weak abilities (class buffs), too strong abilities (class nerfs), uninteresting choices (old talent system) or anything else. I just don't understand how you can say some changes other classes get are alright and 'count', but the changes we get don't count because they 'had to be done'.
    Because adding a proc to a rotation isn't on the same scale as getting an entirely new resource system (Spriests) or getting your entire gameplay system overhauled (Balance Druids).


    Tremor Totem was changed in Cata to be more reactive rather than preemptive, to follow the philosophy they were developing for totems. Grounding Totem has no reason to be changed, its just a spell absorb mechanic. Searing Totem I've said needs to change. Healing Stream Totem has changed significantly, it works completely differently to how it used too, but again needs change. Stone Claw Totem doesn't even exist anymore. Mana Tide Totem and SLT remain the same as from Cata as, like the Post-Cata Tremor Totem, they fit the model for what totems are meant to be now.

    Why does every ability need a major overhaul if it works? These totems fit the philosophy of what totems are meant to be, reactive cooldowns, so why do they need a rework? The only reason I seem to see is 'because we want change', but at the same time people complain that we don't have unique abilities anymore. Our totems are the most unique thing about us.
    Where did I say that these needed an overhaul? I said that the totem change wasn't a massive change.

    Just as the 'dumb limits' of 'normal' buffs still exist. They can still be purged (apart from a unique and powerful few). Every ability in the game has some kind of weakness, even if that weakness is just 'it has a cooldown' or 'it costs me resources to use'. There is no perfect ability in the whole game, thats the way it is meant to be.
    I think that totems can do without elemental limits, 5 health points, and other silly holdovers from the good old days...
    Last edited by Teriz; 2014-06-03 at 09:29 PM.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Razhiel View Post
    In what way, precisely, do WW and DKs (specifically Frost and/or Unholy) make Enhancment look outdated?

    Also, why must every (hybrid?) melee spec/class have both DW and 2H playstyles? To the point, why should Enha have a viable 2H spec?
    What's wrong with JUST having one style? Stating that "every other hybrid melee class has both DW and 2H, so Enha should have it too" does NOT make a valid point as to why should Enhance have it as well.

    Not allowing every spec and class to have the same options as their "counterparts" is NOT bad design, at least from my view. And we`re not talking about homogenisation here, since as you stated the specs are nothing a like in terms of gameplay.
    1) Enhance is the most limited melee specialisation in terms of weapon choices.
    - Compared to agi dw melees, it cannot wield swords like monks or rogues
    - Compared to str dw classes (fury/frost), it cannot additionally make use of 2h either
    Like so often enh will have to rely on general changes for improvement, namely the changing-on-spec primary stats in WoD. Even there though, Fists and Axes are kinda exotic, so I dont expect as many dropping as swords, daggers, staves and so forth. Not only does it not make ANY sense for enh being unable to use swords lore-wise, blizz obv doesn't really care either way, seeing how rogues can weild battle axes and war hammers. And enh CAN still use 2h, and they fit as well. With WF icd gone, but it still not being capable of proccing of itself, I see no problem for enh to be able to go 2h. LL usable with 2h and taking the dps numbers of a 1h offhand weapon of the same ilvl, and allowing two imbues on a 2h weapon => solved.

    2) Enhance's (shaman's in general) totem's are completely outdated and even more restricting than during vanilla, despite being cd-based no and reliant on not being insta-stomped. With elemental totems and SBT having long duration, clashing between totems of the same elements is bound to happen. From the beginning, utility cds' cancelling each other is a crap design. Pets tied to immobile sticks, stuns with ramp-ups, spell reflects and fear breakers not working on silences...it is apparent that blizz is to lazy to look at individual shaman skills. They just throw everything in the totem pot and then go /ignore.

    3) Enhance's mobility (shaman mobility in general) is horrible in pvp. Ele will be 100% turret again and dead in pvp. Enh will still lack uptime, and be more dependant on it now that they'll nerf Ascendence hard, probably also FET, and buff sustained, and whichever mobility tools you look at, they are inferior versions of other classes' counterparts. Even throwing all enh has into the pot, and comparing it against every other melee in detail, enh falls short. It is the only melee with a 30 or lower cd movement gap closer. Ret is comparably bad, but HoF + the judgement sprint allow for a barely okay replacement. I dont know how it's for resto, but I've heard complains on their end as well.

    4) In general, shamans are very dependant on talents and glyphs fixing crappy base design. The 2/3 of the tier45 row is testament to that, and even the combined tier wouldn't fix totems, not even close. Enh is starved for glyphs slots, because LS/HS are just to good to pass up. Meanwhile CPT/GW/HEX/TV primarily would fix base issues, not adding something "additional". W/o GW glyph, the spell feels underwhelming. Without CPT glyph, it is the worst stun ingame period. Without glyphing Frostflame weapon in WoD, enh will be on the short end of the stick in snaring in WoD also, esp as FrS seems to still recide on the shared cd ALL THE WHILE RETAINING IT'S FRIGGIN DMG NERF IT RECEIVED BECAUSE OF THE PERK IN THE FIRST PLACE.

    5) Hex will be a casted cc period. No more MSW hexes. Do monks or Dks need to cast their cc? Didn't think so. Add a cd to that so that enh is inferior to ret and repetance as well, make it weak against druids to boot, screw the general rule that crowd control actually controls and allow hexed targets to move as they wish (super convenient for moving out of CPT range, right?) so it cant even be used to help force a cpt like hunters did with scatter traps (say what you want about traps being unreliable, at least with scatter, traps worked fine)

    6) Enhance is the only melee dps that has to hard cast spells that break on movement on a regular basis, now that they changed lb.

    7) Enh is the only melee spec sharing a lot of spells with a caster spec. The only other class having both specs is druids, and balance and feral have a completely seperated spell pool. There will be those saying that's enhance's charm, but attacking at melee to be able to use ranged specs is bull shit, and indicates lazyness in class design.
    In tbc=>wotlk(3.0), blizz solved a lack on enh skills by slapping ele skills on enh by buffing shocks, adding msw and Statick Shock. It took blizz since then to now in WoD to actually add synergy to shocks for enh. Prior we used them simply as fillers, because they were there, just like during vanilla/tbc. And even the improved LL perk is basically a clone of the elemental talent; Lava Surge.
    Also enh was famous for its imbues, which enhanced it's capabilities. Meanwhile every spec uses them.

    As a result of all this, enh lacks an identity as a spec. The enhancy features (talents focused on improving (buff) totems and imbues) were removed/distributed, and additions consisted of elemental 2nd hand skill.
    The only new frequently used enh only skill added since vanilla, is Lava Lash. And even that took several bigger changes to make it actually good.

    8) Enh required several big changes almost every x-pack to make it actually have/use normal gear now.
    - From rogue/feral off- gear in vanilla (tier gear was spellpower based)
    - To rogue gear with Str gems in tbc (Finally spec specific tier gear at least, but having int on it)
    - Switching to agi, plus having a benefit from int
    - Periods where we went with daggers, ft/ft and caster weapons
    - Additional change in cata, mail no longer has int
    - Had many many instances in where it was left out in itemisation (faction rewards, raid drops, crafted weapons, etc.) I remember having no luck with the axe from alar back in tbc, and had to run with the s2 pvp mace for off hand all the way to sunwell, because every 1h agi Weapon from Fool's Bane over Decapitator, to Phoenix and Fury fists were main hand only for the longest time, and Rising Tide from black temple, for some alient reaon had to be frickin' unique. Or during icc, where everyone could get weapons out of the 1st 25m wing except enh...or enh having to wait till the very end of 4.0 progress to get acess to heroic weapons. Or all the 1h agi swords or str axes among crafts...

    ...
    And enh still is the only melee without either a primary or secondary recource...

    That enough to show that enh/shamans being outdated? We're like a living fossil. A shaman performing class analysis basically equals archeology.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2014-06-03 at 10:19 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You weren't casting Lightning Bolts and Earth Shock before Fulmination? The only thing Fulmination did was prioritize Earth Shock while Flame Shock and/or Lava Burst was on cooldown. Lava Surge pulled Lava Burst off of cooldown, and then made Lava Burst instant cast. QoL change? Certainly. Significant change? Not really.
    No I wasn't casting Earth Shock. No-one was.

    http://totemz.wordpress.com/category...-dps-rotation/

    The movement suggestions here suggests Frost Shock, not Earth Shock, like I said.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1AJLHq01pCo

    (excuse the terrible music in the video, the rotation used is in the About section).

    How is completely changing how Lava Burst works, from being a spell you could literally macro, to something that can be instant cast and has a reactionary value to it, just a quality of life change?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because adding a proc to a rotation isn't on the same scale as getting an entirely new resource system (Spriests) or getting your entire gameplay system overhauled (Balance Druids).
    No, but we also go a new resource system. Maybe not as complex as the Balance druid eclipse system, but we have to manage our Lightning Shield stacks now, which we didn't have to do before.
    Last edited by Undefetter; 2014-06-03 at 10:34 PM.


  15. #115
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonious View Post
    ***alpha***
    Alpha is the stage where major changes take place. Beta is where the smaller stuff comes into play. So in beta you may see a talent change or two, you're not going to see a major system change.

    I'd also like to point out that our level 100 talents showcase everything that is wrong with the Shaman class.

  16. #116
    Shamans did not get major changes (like warrior or balance druid) but the changes we got are (IMO) extremely good.

    Vast improvements for enha and elem, especially for their AOE and overall stat scaling, and other changes that are just long overdue (like removal of much filler).

    However i gotta point out that both arms and fury warriors are getting major reworks, crucial spells removed and overall changes to mechanics/rotation.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    The answer to this should really be remove the weapon specializations they will never use, not redesign the class in such a way to allow for them to use them.
    Nooo! In ToT I finally got to use 2Hd for Elemental and it was glorious! I hope to see more of those in the future.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    And enh CAN still use 2h, and they fit as well. With WF icd gone, but it still not being capable of proccing of itself, I see no problem for enh to be able to go 2h. LL usable with 2h and taking the dps numbers of a 1h offhand weapon of the same ilvl, and allowing two imbues on a 2h weapon => solved.
    Posts like this are going to give me blue-balls. I want to live in this world.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Futhark View Post
    Nooo! In ToT I finally got to use 2Hd for Elemental and it was glorious! I hope to see more of those in the future.
    Haha dat 2hd Int Mace. OP as f**k bro. I want a massive 2hd Int Sword, so I can stab people with my lightning rod of Elemental Justice. Why do Paladins get all the fun.


  19. #119
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    No I wasn't casting Earth Shock. No-one was.



    How is completely changing how Lava Burst works, from being a spell you could literally macro, to something that can be instant cast and has a reactionary value to it, just a quality of life change?
    It hardly changed how LvB works. It just made it better.

    No, but we also go a new resource system. Maybe not as complex as the Balance druid eclipse system, but we have to manage our Lightning Shield stacks now, which we didn't have to do before.
    Fulmination hasn't changed since it was introduced. Eclipse has changed multiple times since it was introduced. Elemental has gotten nothing similar since that time.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It hardly changed how LvB works. It just made it better.
    I didn't change how the spell itself worked, but it completely changed how we used it. It was a massive change to the way the class played, I just can't see how you can say nothing has changed for us then in the same breath say this change doesn't matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Fulmination hasn't changed since it was introduced. Eclipse has changed multiple times since it was introduced. Elemental has gotten nothing similar since that time.
    Being pedantic here, but actually it has. Fulmination was changed so that it worked off every stack of Lightning Shield beyond the first and the total stacks were reduced, to make it less complicated and to make a QoL change for the way Lightning Shield worked when you get hit.


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