1. #1
    Bloodsail Admiral Rustweaver's Avatar
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    "Don't Go There! That's A Bad Site!"

    I'm just curious to know what makes a bad site bad in terms of rotation, gearing, and all other aspects to min/max your character. I ask this because it seems as though a site will go through phases where it's 'okay' and then gradually (or abruptly) turn to being the butt-end to a joke.

    I understand that, in order to min/max, you need to use a certain spec, rotation, have specific gear and have that gear properly configured but seeing as how you are looking at the specific goal of optimizing your character to be as close to perfect as possible, how can some sites 'get it' while others have a community-painted sign to 'get out'.

    • If all this data is being pulled out of SimCraft or some other theorycrafting math, is there an 'acceptable' amount of inconsistency due to being Simulated when compared to other results?
    • Are those who originally programmed the software or created the system replaced by less experienced players or simply inexperienced themselves which gradually made an impact on the content?
    • Did they get too popular among the more casual-related players and associate itself with the idea among some players that 'casuals=bad' and that idea spread?

    Like I said, I think it's weird that sites which have the intentions of further developing your character can be used as a rallying point of what not to do or to simply be ignored altogether when it seems as though it was the opposite attitude when first released.

    I've left the names of the sites out on purpose to see how long it takes before it becomes obvious as to which it/they may be.
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  2. #2
    Most sites go through the okay to joke cycle because they start out with a team who does their research but after a few patches, and several months of ad revenue, they quickly get tired of it and just slop together what info they can find quickly.

  3. #3
    Brewmaster MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    I never really see players discussing which websites to visit or not to visit.

    Here is what I use and what for:


    • Wowhead.com - Find more information on items such as drop rate, drop location, model, color variations, quest objects, NPC locations etc.
    • Noxxic.com - Basic info on rotation and which stats are important to my spec.
    • Askmrrobot.com - My favorite. How to gem, enchant and reforge your character optimally. What bosses have the greatest chance to offer you an upgrade. How to spend your valor to get the most bang for your buck. Where you should spend your bonus rolls.
    • Curse.com - Addons. That's it.

    Nothing can hold me back!

  4. #4
    I am Murloc! Raiju's Avatar
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    I found the current sites suffer the opposite issue to what Xeraxis said. They have good points to them legitimately, but they try to expand into other areas halfheartedly and end up with sucky guides for years (or in some cases indefinitely). I wouldn't be surprised if certain sites / people just do this for the ad traffic / subscribers / whatever.

    I will mention AMR by name since it's a very popular one for people to say - I usually steer other players away from it unless I either a) feel they will be able to manipulate values themselves or b) am willing to take the time to teach them. It's not designed to have perfect numbers set to begin with, just a rough guide. People should be using their own numbers for it.
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    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by MrKnubbles View Post
    I never really see players discussing which websites to visit or not to visit.

    Here is what I use and what for:


    • Wowhead.com - Find more information on items such as drop rate, drop location, model, color variations, quest objects, NPC locations etc.
    • Noxxic.com - Basic info on rotation and which stats are important to my spec.
    • Askmrrobot.com - My favorite. How to gem, enchant and reforge your character optimally. What bosses have the greatest chance to offer you an upgrade. How to spend your valor to get the most bang for your buck. Where you should spend your bonus rolls.
    • Curse.com - Addons. That's it.
    I would personally substitute Noxxic for Icy-Veins. Noxxic teaches you the how but Icy-Veins teaches you the how and why.

  6. #6
    Brewmaster MrKnubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewor View Post
    I would personally substitute Noxxic for Icy-Veins. Noxxic teaches you the how but Icy-Veins teaches you the how and why.
    Noxxic explains why as well. I hardly visit the site because I mainly just play my Paladin anyways. It's a quick refresher when playing a class I haven't touched in a while. I get what I need out of it. I definitely don't try to min/max on alts. It's all about preference though. I like one site, you like another.

    Nothing can hold me back!

  7. #7
    Because some sites give such abysmal information it's actually... a joke.

    Noxxic takes all their information from sims and sims alone, and often doesn't account for things like movement when they add things up.
    Ice Veins on the other hand, has top players from around the world confirm each and every single class guide they make

    Askmrrobot may be a godsend for some, but as a restoration shaman this patch/xpac, it gives literally the WORST possible reforge options and gemming solutions. Mr Robot only works if you MAKE it work by adding in your own weights and values

    Wowhead is the best. It gets all of its information from reliable sources and often datamines it itself, and also makes sure anything UNCONFIRMED stays unconfirmed.

    Elitist Jerks used to be the place to go years ago, but one thing that really deterred me from this site (At least it was this way years ago) Was that... they were elitist jerks. They gave you information on how to play your class at top tier levels, and never taught anybody how to get into a class, often times, stat priority changes with gear level. So low geared players would often do very poorly because elitist jerks didn't differentiate for them

    I haven't watched any of Blizzards "Crash Course" Videos because I know how to play every class, but I appreciate they're at least trying to educate new players.
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  8. #8
    AskMrRobot:
    Can lead you in the wrong direction if you're unsure how to use/change the stats/weights.

    For classes new to me, I like checking out:
    http://www.worldofwargraphs.com
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  9. #9
    Noxxic is terrible, primarily for their "real DPS" charts, which are taken entirely from simcraft. They don't even come close to the real game.

    Icy-veins and Ask Mr. Robot are pretty good these days.

  10. #10
    Noxxic is terrible.

    Ask Mr Robot can be unreliable, but its alright to get a good idea of where to head.

    Icy Veins takes 3 pages worth of words to explain simple things, way too wordy for me.

    Therefore, the best place I have found to get info from is from the top players of the class, as a few of them live off of guides and things. For example, I mained a Warlock for MoP, and I have followed Sparkuggz take off with his Warlock guides. They are very in depth, and he covers all different levels. I'm sure there are similar things around for other classes.

  11. #11
    Free Food!?!?! Tziva's Avatar
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    The problem is often either that people don't know how to get good data, or the site itself doesn't know how to use good data, and people in all cases don't know how to judge the information within the context of that information's limitations.

    Take the issue of gearing, for example. Almost universally across all specs and all classes, determining best gear upgrades/gems/enchants/reforge/valor upgrade depends entirely on your existing gear and your existing gems/enchants/reforges/upgrades. There is no one right answer for everyone because of the way stat values are so dynamic. So any site is going to have the problem of accuracy: either it presents a basic list that will be mostly accurate for the most people, or it presents data that is wildly wrong until you plug in your own numbers from a sim or spreadsheet. Anyone can look at either of those sites and call them shitty, but that's because they don't really understand.

    AMR is a great example because the site is absolutely phenomenal if you plug in your own values. However, if you don't, the default data is often pretty wrong. People who don't know better criticise that wrong data, and people that don't know better use that wrong data.


    Of course, it's often the case that many sites are often outdated, or simplified to a poor degree, or based off of faulty information. This is where you'll often see the harshest critiques and more often than not, in my experience, it's pretty valid.

    If you want the most accurate information, you have to know where to go for what information, know how to judge what a site is offering, and know how to interpret that information.
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  12. #12
    I was under the assumption that people read guides to learn how to play their class, so if a DPS guide is offering advice that leads to performing lower DPS, it is a failure.

    Looking over the hunter guide on Noxxic, it is "updated" to 5.4.8, yet recommends talent options that will underperform compared to other options, and the guide offers little to no depth (something I imagine people actually enjoy reading). The guides on MMO-C in their own respective class forum are magnitudes better written.

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