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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by lolalola View Post
    I don't main Moonkin, but has anyone ever tried on Klaxxi HC to just keep the parasite alive on them for the entire fight? Does stuff like this ever get abused? Like say, doing LK25H and keeping something hitting you, getting you flagged as "tank" and hence no Valk for you?
    The chance of dying keeping a parasite on you is a bit too high (at least in my guild) and I'm not sure if they even proc Owlkin since they are channeling a spell and not actually hitting you.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    It's not really crying when the concerns are completely valid, or do you think one spec being able to double everyone else's damage on specific fights because of a design flaw a good idea?
    It's not a design flaw if it is completely unreasonable for a player to get the buff. Standing in the fire is one thing but getting aggro in a raid situation is another. Even if it does go live, Blizzard won't address it unless it actually becomes a problem. They can easily just make it a pvp set bonus.

    Not allowing abilities like this for the sake of all classes being the same in all situations is what causes class homogenization.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    It's not a design flaw if it is completely unreasonable for a player to get the buff. Standing in the fire is one thing but getting aggro in a raid situation is another. Even if it does go live, Blizzard won't address it unless it actually becomes a problem. They can easily just make it a pvp set bonus.

    Not allowing abilities like this for the sake of all classes being the same in all situations is what causes class homogenization.
    This guy gets it

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    It's not a design flaw if it is completely unreasonable for a player to get the buff. Standing in the fire is one thing but getting aggro in a raid situation is another. Even if it does go live, Blizzard won't address it unless it actually becomes a problem. They can easily just make it a pvp set bonus.

    Not allowing abilities like this for the sake of all classes being the same in all situations is what causes class homogenization.
    No matter how unreasonable it is, if there are situations where it can be abused for a massive benefit then there are going to be people who abuse it (even if it's only 0.001% of people) and will greatly benefit from it while everyone else can't, meaning it's impossible to balance around it.

    Take the recent Stampede "exploits" as an example. You could consider getting buffs on your Stampede pets a clever use of game mechanics but it was clear it was unintended so they were hotfixed.

    "Class homogenization" means absolutely nothing because we're not talking about removing/changing class mechanics for no reason, we're talking about mechanics that are clearly poorly designed/broken so they should be altered (read: altered, not removed) as to not completely break the game because of their existence.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    It's not a design flaw if it is completely unreasonable for a player to get the buff. Standing in the fire is one thing but getting aggro in a raid situation is another. Even if it does go live, Blizzard won't address it unless it actually becomes a problem. They can easily just make it a pvp set bonus.

    Not allowing abilities like this for the sake of all classes being the same in all situations is what causes class homogenization.
    Implying that "letting it happen" justifies ignoring potential abuses. The fact is, if it does become reasonable, players will do it. Which is exactly why you don't let it happen in the first place if you know you'll change it in the future.
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    No matter how unreasonable it is, if there are situations where it can be abused for a massive benefit then there are going to be people who abuse it (even if it's only 0.001% of people) and will greatly benefit from it while everyone else can't, meaning it's impossible to balance around it.

    Take the recent Stampede "exploits" as an example. You could consider getting buffs on your Stampede pets a clever use of game mechanics but it was clear it was unintended so they were hotfixed.

    "Class homogenization" means absolutely nothing because we're not talking about removing/changing class mechanics for no reason, we're talking about mechanics that are clearly poorly designed/broken so they should be altered (read: altered, not removed) as to not completely break the game because of their existence.
    So if the situation required a dedicated healer on the moonkin, how would buffing the moonkin's dps be better than just taking another dps rather than the dedicated healer? This is what testing is for. Blizzard clearly already understands that taking damage for the sake of more damage is not a good thing. They won't let it go live if it gets abused.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyous View Post
    Implying that "letting it happen" justifies ignoring potential abuses. The fact is, if it does become reasonable, players will do it. Which is exactly why you don't let it happen in the first place if you know you'll change it in the future.
    Blizzard should probably just go ahead and hire you.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    It's not a design flaw if it is completely unreasonable for a player to get the buff. Standing in the fire is one thing but getting aggro in a raid situation is another. Even if it does go live, Blizzard won't address it unless it actually becomes a problem. They can easily just make it a pvp set bonus.
    .
    On progress, you have to maximize dps in every way, what seems like a situational bonus could become a requirement, which is the bit I am not happy with. Personally, I really could not be bothered with the hassle telling 19 other people in my raid not to touch an add. It just seems counter intuitive in a raid. That being said they are changing the amount of smart heals in the game, so it will likely piss off healers anyway
    Last edited by Ayen; 2014-06-08 at 08:34 PM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    So if the situation required a dedicated healer on the moonkin, how would buffing the moonkin's dps be better than just taking another dps rather than the dedicated healer? This is what testing is for. Blizzard clearly already understands that taking damage for the sake of more damage is not a good thing. They won't let it go live if it gets abused.
    If it required an extra healer then sure it wouldn't be worth it but there's also situations where it wouldn't require a healer, such as the one this tier on Spoils where the swarmers barely hit for 20k. I'm not saying THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER IT IS BREAKING THE GAME, I am saying that there is massive potential for abuse if the right situation occurs (which very possible to happen).

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayen View Post
    On progress, you have to maximize dps in every way, what seems like a situational bonus could become a requirement, which is the bit I am not happy with. Personally, I really could not be bothered with the hassle telling 19 other people in my raid not to touch an add. It just seems counter intuitive in a raid. That being said they are changing the amount of smart heals in the game, so it will likely piss off healers anyway
    That's not quite correct. You have to maximize the capacity of your raid to kill the boss, not DPS. If you increase your DPS by being a massive drain on your healers, you might very well reduce that capacity.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    If it required an extra healer then sure it wouldn't be worth it but there's also situations where it wouldn't require a healer, such as the one this tier on Spoils where the swarmers barely hit for 20k. I'm not saying THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER IT IS BREAKING THE GAME, I am saying that there is massive potential for abuse if the right situation occurs (which very possible to happen).
    So do warlocks do this with backlash?

  11. #31
    No. But Backlash only makes one very weak spell instant, and only once every 8 seconds. Not even remotely the same situation.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    So do warlocks do this with backlash?
    No because Incinerate casts are a very similar length to the GCD so backlash procs aren't even a DPS increase, not to mention the ICD placed on it. If backlash worked on Chaos Bolt and had no ICD then I'm sure Warlocks would be doing it though.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Glurp View Post
    No because Incinerate casts are a very similar length to the GCD so backlash procs aren't even a DPS increase, not to mention the ICD placed on it. If backlash worked on Chaos Bolt and had no ICD then I'm sure Warlocks would be doing it though.
    Alright, so they could add a 3 sec cd to starfire when it's instant

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    Ahh the wow community. There's always something to cry about.
    Ahh the forum harpies tirelessly obstructing any meaningful and constructive critical thinking with their double digit IQs.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by oland138 View Post
    Alright, so they could add a 3 sec cd to starfire when it's instant
    Or you dont let the proc trigger where you dont want it
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That's not quite correct. You have to maximize the capacity of your raid to kill the boss, not DPS. If you increase your DPS by being a massive drain on your healers, you might very well reduce that capacity.
    On fights which you overgear / the dps isn't that tight, sure. But any fight with a close enrage and the potential to do this, it would be a requirement.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayen View Post
    On fights which you overgear / the dps isn't that tight, sure. But any fight with a close enrage and the potential to do this, it would be a requirement.
    You would only be able to "abuse" owlkin frenzy on a fight that you overgear. If you let this happen today during progress (which I guess you've forgotten or outgeared everything when you killed it) you'd understand that it's not a viable tactic and you'd be putting yourself at high risk of a one shot or quick death which 99% of the mobs in SoO or any encounter this expansion. The mobs' damage is tuned to be taken from a tank, not a dps, and that damage intake is not sustainable. In Warlords, you'd either die or set your healers very far back because it takes a much longer time to top any one person off. If they are focusing on you, the tank's hp falls behind, or the rest of the raid. Especially for a 15% chance to increase that one moonkin's damage.

    This thread has really begun to degenerate and is a bit too much concern this early in development. I personally think the spell could be improved somehow, perhaps a cooldown or very clear rules about how it would proc, rather than it being clouded in mystery. Arguing about potential abuses when there were none this expansion during actual progression is a complete waste of time. Unless you find a reliable way to spam proc it without risk of dying in the Alpha/Beta yourself, stop posting. Any constructive conversation at this point would be throwing around ideas to change the spell, as removing it in PVE has already been suggested multiple times. I'm pretty sure Owlkin Frenzy is on the back-burner until the core of spec is nailed down, so wait.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayen View Post
    On fights which you overgear / the dps isn't that tight, sure. But any fight with a close enrage and the potential to do this, it would be a requirement.
    On any fight with a tight enrage, you likely won't be able to spare the healing capacity to do it in the first place.

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