WoD Beta Demonology Discussion

[Nighthaven-]

There's a lot of misconception here!
There's nothing 'wrong' with Demo in numbers other than 'input-for-reward' issues especially internal for Warlocks but also versus other classes; which they 'hinted' they would do something about.

The problem with Demo is that everything it does is clunky for no apparent reason and it is tuned around these theoretical circumstance(s) that is most likely not going to happen - which means anything not corresponding to this will result in sub-par performance and thus Demo is unpopular for the masses.

For example,
the two significant output abilities for Cleave and AoE:
- HoG requires add-pack timing and matching to your 15s/ 2 charge(s) - It is very strong, but that is only to match it's very low up-time.
- Any relevant/ class competitive AoE on demand requires Fury and MF (Immolation Aura).
(Which means sometimes for very short lived packs your AoE is seemingly best, but when you cannot time it, your AoE is the worst - which averages out versus other classes on average - yet Demo max performance is among the other classes (which is unfortunately what it is tuned around), yet this is most likely not going to happen on the average attempt, assuming all attempts are subject to unknown RNG.


Blizzard seems to be completely unaware of this, does nothing to solve it - in addition to the short range of your general AoE abilities and clunkiness. But Demo also loses it's niche in WoD with the removal of Carrion Swarm and giving the other specs matching burst AoE capabilities on talent choice.
Which ultimately, leaves Demo with nothing.

[Grizelda]

- HoG requires add-pack timing and matching to your 15s/ 2 charge(s) - It is very strong, but that is only to match it's very low up-time.

That's a good point. On live it's very weird/ non-intuitive, but it's cool because it sets a higher skill cap to use properly.

I wonder if it would feel better if it was tuned to have 100% uptime and not stacking. Lower skill cap but more useful?

I don't know.

[Zinnin]

That's a good point. On live it's very weird/ non-intuitive, but it's cool because it sets a higher skill cap to use properly.

I wonder if it would feel better if it was tuned to have 100% uptime and not stacking. Lower skill cap but more useful?

I don't know.

I would say the only unintuitive part of HoG in MoP was the shadowflame weaving aspect, outside of that it doesn't require a guide to tell you that you should be saving them for AoE / cleave. If you don't have to really think on it to be able to decide saving them is worth it, that is the very definition of an intuitive spell =P

[Jessicka]

I honestly don't buy us having weak 'nuke the add' mechanics as a legitimate concern at all. I would argue that Demo's performance in that regard is 100% up to par. The only time Destro's 'nuke the add' mechanics are so much better we have to worry is when add needs to die in under 5 seconds and has an oppressive amount of health. Even on one of the higher tune mechanics like that (Ra-den) Demo would preform just fine as long as you planned out your resource usage and swapped your pet. You could even outdo Destro if you went so far to pool energy and use Demonic Training Imp.

Worrying about our ability to kill an add that is going to die nearly instantly anyways, just because Destro can shadowburn, isn't a weakness of Demo. It is a strength of Destro to be able to shadowburn.

As a side note about shadowburn; an insanely high percentage of the damage listed in logs is overkill when you are talking about the situations where you are just sniping out KB's with SB. For example a player might Shadowburn a 'Spark of Life' in SoO for 1m, on 25H when it is at 20% it only has 735k left. So even if you perfectly hit it at 20%, 30% of that damage still shows in logs as effective, even though it wasn't.
I know personally there has been plenty of times where I just sit there mouseover shadowburning 5-6 sparks that are 90% insignificant, even though if you really look at the damage I really contributed it would become far less then what logs report.

Long story short, I really think this is another case of what Destro has is most likely too strong, and it isn't something that Demo is actually weak on.

I dunno. It is a Destruction strength, it always has been, but it's not just about Shadowburn; a big chunk of it is Conflagrate and Backdraft - and that's not overdamage. I think the Molten Core perk and Chaos Wave buff should help though, even though I think I'd prefer on the whole if the perk didn't effect cast time; the Fury cost reduction is sufficient.

- - - Updated - - -

There's a lot of misconception here!
There's nothing 'wrong' with Demo in numbers other than 'input-for-reward' issues especially internal for Warlocks but also versus other classes; which they 'hinted' they would do something about.

The problem with Demo is that everything it does is clunky for no apparent reason and it is tuned around these theoretical circumstance(s) that is most likely not going to happen - which means anything not corresponding to this will result in sub-par performance and thus Demo is unpopular for the masses.

I'm just going to disagree that it's clunky, the rotation is actually pretty smooth, it's just very susceptible to RNG. It was certainly popular during ToT, and I still see it used, probably more commonly than Affliction amongst Openraid pugs. Right now Destruction is a certainly way more popular, but then it is significantly more powerful and more forgiving in the encounters presented - that is always going to skew things. It's also been traditionally our most popular "casual" spec.

For example,
the two significant output abilities for Cleave and AoE:
- HoG requires add-pack timing and matching to your 15s/ 2 charge(s) - It is very strong, but that is only to match it's very low up-time.

I don't see this as a problem, as Zinnin says it's pretty obvious how it works, and the charges make it pretty forgiving.

- Any relevant/ class competitive AoE on demand requires Fury and MF (Immolation Aura).
(Which means sometimes for very short lived packs your AoE is seemingly best, but when you cannot time it, your AoE is the worst - which averages out versus other classes on average - yet Demo max performance is among the other classes (which is unfortunately what it is tuned around), yet this is most likely not going to happen on the average attempt, assuming all attempts are subject to unknown RNG.

Certainly my main gripe. Actually wasn't a big deal before 5.4, but after the change to MF, they nerfed Immolation and Hellfire significantly; the cooldown stacking has led to a huge front load of damage, which obviously leaves us feeling very weak outside of that stack. It's a common complaint across any class with a lot of cooldowns. I'd like to think the removal of Void Ray and Carrion Swarm, reducing the number of damage sources will allow some scope for putting some of that damage back into those spells, especially Hellfire, and hopefull a change to MF too, to smooth things out a bit.

Blizzard seems to be completely unaware of this, does nothing to solve it - in addition to the short range of your general AoE abilities and clunkiness. But Demo also loses it's niche in WoD with the removal of Carrion Swarm and giving the other specs matching burst AoE capabilities on talent choice.
Which ultimately, leaves Demo with nothing.

I just don't think we've been on the list to be honest, other classes have had priority, but now they're looking at FF and KJC again; looking at abilities for Servitude Demons, so maybe they have started to take a look.

[Grizelda]

I don't see this as a problem, as Zinnin says it's pretty obvious how it works, and the charges make it pretty forgiving.

Shadowflame meta weaving was obvious?

I'll grant you it's cool but obvious?

[Deleted]

Shadowflame meta weaving was obvious?

I'll grant you it's cool but obvious?

That's not what he said.

He meant saving them for AoE.

[Jessicka]

That's not what he said.

He meant saving them for AoE.

The way it stacks and the using for AoE, yes. Not the Meta part, but that's gone in WoD anyway.

[Grizelda]

Not trying to put words into anyones mouth.

Sure it's clear that it would be better to use it on multiple adds rather then one target, but you still use it on single target. That's not at all confusing.

I was referring to the charge system and Shadowflame being affected by Meta, but as you say Meta weaving is gone now.

I was musing whether or not it would be more fun to try and keep full uptime on the DoT at however many stacks.
I'd think if it were designed to have more then 2 stacks it would cause too much ramp up time.

[Jessicka]

If it had 2 stacks and 3 charges allowing for 100% up time at 2 stacks, that would be a cool mechanic. Not sure how nicely that would fit with prolongued use of Meta though.

[Grizelda]

And it would probably feel/work better if the CD on Meta were removed. I'm thinking of times when I just bounced out of Meta from adding the second stack and suddenly there's my 4 piece proc.

[Hellfury]

Let's compare the highest parses on a few fights for a few caster classes.

Fallen Protectors - Demonology 847k, Destruction 920k, Boomkin 823k, Shadow 888k, Elemental 809k, Arcane 970k, Frost 709k.

Iron Juggernaut - Demonology 576k, Destruction 582k, Boomkin 571k, Shadow 559k, Elemental 539k, Arcane 599k, Frost 526k.

Malkorok - Demonology 592k, Destruction 609k, Boomkin 598k, Shadow 636k (insane parse, almost 100k over rank 2), Elemental 534k, Arcane 610k, Frost 527k.

These are all fights with relatively little padding potential. Most top parses had tricks and good RNG.

There is no denying Affliction is the best spec in the game so I didn't care to list it. I'm also not denying that Demonology is not strong in all areas, contrary to Destruction which currently has the tools for every situation in SoO. Also don't forget what Zinnin said above about Destruction benefitting from a lot of Shadowburn Overkill.

Bottom line is that Demonology is a competitive spec and is NOT weak nor underpowered. Current Affliction with snapshotting is overpowered and will be toned down in WoD. SoO has also been very kind to Destruction in having near every fight allow Shadowburn sniping for overkill damage (minor) and additional resource generation (major).

Also:



You probably aren't playing it optimally.

Thats all fine and dandy, but I dont understand why ppl hold onto patcherk fights as benchmarks, its archaic and oudated.

Who cares that demo does competitive DPS on a meat bag, those fights were done by most under 10 pulls.

malkorock and Jugernaut its fights Demo can stand its own but who cares, those fights were done by most under 10 pulls

[Deleted]

Thats all fine and dandy, but I dont understand why ppl hold onto patcherk fights as benchmarks, its archaic and oudated.

Who cares that demo does competitive DPS on a meat bag, those fights were done by most under 10 pulls.

malkorock and Jugernaut its fights Demo can stand its own but who cares, those fights were done by most under 10 pulls

I listed a council fight, a patchwerk fight, and a semi patchwerk fight which includes a constant stream of adds to generate resources from.

My post was in response to people saying "hurr durr Demo weak and bottom of all specs, Celestalon IS TROLL!?!?!?!?" when it can clearly hold its own in a variety of encounters.

Let's add some more then, shall we?

Thok - Demonology 618k, Destruction 648k, Boomkin 609k, Shadow 565k, Elemental 547k, Arcane 600k, Frost 499k.

Blackfuse - Demonology 504k, Destruction 570k, Boomkin 542k, Shadow 556k, Elemental 587k, Arcane 541k, Frost 552k.

I have opted not to include stuff like Immerseus/Galakras/Nazgrim because the effort in sifting through logs to rule out those which were basically pad-fests for the top ranks would be too time consuming, and quite frankly not the worth the effort.

Once again, I have stated that Demonology does have certain weaknesses whereas Destruction is potent in all areas, but please stop trying to infer that Demonology is a weak and underpowered spec or that Celestalon is some huge troll because it's bullshit and ignorant to say so.

[Deleted]

Dot snapshotting is gone in WoD pretty much.
Put shadowburn on a cooldown and destro's shadowburn sniping is "fixed", you can still snipe but not as much.
For the rest it seems that Demo atm can keep up with the other casters and is a bit middle of the pack depending on the fight.

lol you do realize what function shadowburn has, right? you'd have a point if it was an ability we could use anytime but its only when a target is sub 20% AND even then you loose out on using it on adds a lot due to the delay it has. it would be equivalent to putting a cd on molten core procs which would be highly counter productive. not saying demo doesnt need work done to it in order to improve it, it certainly does and i think above all, they need to make it a bit faster and feel less clunky, it certainly isnt as intuitive as afflic and destro. i feel like adding a mechanic similar to backdraft, where your pet's crits would give you a reduced cast time on your next shadow bolt, would also synergize well with demo version of GoSac.

i dont quite get what ppl have against destro's ability to "snipe" adds, and what i get even less is how ppl can ask for nerfs to a spec from their own class instead of asking for buffs for the spec they play, its like they want the class to be weaker, so all have to play a weaker spec, instead of the class becoming stronger so all can play the spec they want. "buff demo VS nerf destro" etc.

[Jessicka]

i dont quite get what ppl have against destro's ability to "snipe" adds, and what i get even less is how ppl can ask for nerfs to a spec from their own class instead of asking for buffs for the spec they play, its like they want the class to be weaker, so all have to play a weaker spec, instead of the class becoming stronger so all can play the spec they want. "buff demo VS nerf destro" etc.

You have to look at it in the wider scheme of things, in which Demo doesn't objectively need buffing. I don't really have a problem with Shadowburn, so much as Havocing them off adds onto the boss; it's at that point I feel like it's a little abusive.

[Deleted]

You have to look at it in the wider scheme of things, in which Demo doesn't objectively need buffing. I don't really have a problem with Shadowburn, so much as Havocing them off adds onto the boss; it's at that point I feel like it's a little abusive.

it isnt any less abusive than taking MF and use it on nazgrim's many adds at the begining of the fight to pad tho atleast the havocing shadowburn is used to not pad dmg but rather to increase effective dps.

[Betrayerx]

Finally got beta and I spent some time with Demonbolt on the 100 server last night and based on the spells current iteration it will 100% be redesigned by the time wod launches. The fury consumption for more dmg mechanic is interesting but contradicted by the fury return mechanic and plays against demo's style of proc reaction and decision making.

[Nighthaven-]

I'm just going to disagree that it's clunky, the rotation is actually pretty smooth, it's just very susceptible to RNG. It was certainly popular during ToT, and I still see it used, probably more commonly than Affliction amongst Openraid pugs. Right now Destruction is a certainly way more popular, but then it is significantly more powerful and more forgiving in the encounters presented - that is always going to skew things. It's also been traditionally our most popular "casual" spec.

I don't see this as a problem, as Zinnin says it's pretty obvious how it works, and the charges make it pretty forgiving.

The default rotation for a 'constant scenario' is smooth enough, yet applying the single-target AoE onto majorly 'unpredictable-target-appearances' isn't.
Using the limited charge based system for random AoE is clunky, as you use it for single target as well. No exceptions. Which most add packs are, but this problem isn't apparent when you always have the cleave targets 'ready.'

- The second problem is that Demo is tuned around this max theoretical ceiling. If you cannot nail/ get maximum performance out of the spec, which in many cases happens, you are not competitive, even for single target (as you really gain a lot of fury for cleaving effectively). Loosing 500+ fury for a missed HoG cleave timing is seemingly retarded as you 'couldn't' control that. (+ the fast tick-frequency, high damage and fury-gain on kills being likely/ which is ultimately more effective when you apply two charges for securing kills + damage).

Missing these cleave opportunities degrades your performance overwhelmingly for no beneficial reason when comparing to other classes that can apply equally strong AoE at ease.

Certainly my main gripe. Actually wasn't a big deal before 5.4, but after the change to MF, they nerfed Immolation and Hellfire significantly; the cooldown stacking has led to a huge front load of damage, which obviously leaves us feeling very weak outside of that stack. It's a common complaint across any class with a lot of cooldowns. I'd like to think the removal of Void Ray and Carrion Swarm, reducing the number of damage sources will allow some scope for putting some of that damage back into those spells, especially Hellfire, and hopefull a change to MF too, to smooth things out a bit.

That is surprisingly accurate.
Yet I wouldn't support that change at the loss of general utility: Carrion Swarm.
But Immolation Aura (the only other significant Demo AoE) is also majorly dependent on fury-generation. If the first joint/ link (which is HoG cleave, as you need fury for competitive AoE) can only cleave effectively under a limited amount of circumstances (as targeting spread targets is very awkward and unreliable with the mini-radius) - increasing IA/HF (making it more proportionally significant) will only increase the risk of having its capabilities whacked/ hotfixed (as with the Doom nerf), if you can be lucky enough to provide fury for it constantly (despite awkward effective appliance of HoG efficiency; as it is for the being).


I would rather push for a HoG & MF change instead: making it easier to apply/ more reliable (permanent radius increase), so that IA/HF can be tuned more accordingly (instead of buffing the value of a secondary joint/ link - that is dependent on the first for up-time).

Cooldown stacking only for AoE should go in any-way though.

I just don't think we've been on the list to be honest, other classes have had priority, but now they're looking at FF and KJC again; looking at abilities for Servitude Demons, so maybe they have started to take a look.

Sometimes it looks like Blizzard needs an exceptional accurate one-liner describing a flaw to start 'investigating' and 'fixing' things - as they are incapable of understanding/ spotting seemingly hidden spec operational mechanics.

[Deleted]

lol you do realize what function shadowburn has, right? you'd have a point if it was an ability we could use anytime but its only when a target is sub 20% AND even then you loose out on using it on adds a lot due to the delay it has. it would be equivalent to putting a cd on molten core procs which would be highly counter productive. not saying demo doesnt need work done to it in order to improve it, it certainly does and i think above all, they need to make it a bit faster and feel less clunky, it certainly isnt as intuitive as afflic and destro. i feel like adding a mechanic similar to backdraft, where your pet's crits would give you a reduced cast time on your next shadow bolt, would also synergize well with demo version of GoSac.

i dont quite get what ppl have against destro's ability to "snipe" adds, and what i get even less is how ppl can ask for nerfs to a spec from their own class instead of asking for buffs for the spec they play, its like they want the class to be weaker, so all have to play a weaker spec, instead of the class becoming stronger so all can play the spec they want. "buff demo VS nerf destro" etc.

A spammable execute that does tons of damage, can be havoc'd on a boss, gives its resources back when its target dies so you can spam it some more.
It's a bit to much if you ask me, and yes I played destro and I loved it, doesn't mean it's not rediculous though.

Asking for a nerf where the problem is, is often better then letting Blizzard put in a nerf wich will be way worse and won't solve the problem a lot of times.

So putting either a cd on SB itself or on the ember regen effect won't cripple you or won't change much in a straight up tank and spank, it will only nerf sniping.

I don't ask for nerfs for spec A because spec B is underpowered in the first place.
If something is underpowered you buff it, if something is overpowered you nerf it.
Demo is fine so doesnt need a buff, affliction dot snapshotting and destro SB sniping is overpowered so it needs a nerf.
Simple enough.

[Deleted]

its hardly spammable, if you think that then you havent actually played destro. the problem with your suggestion is that it greatly hinders their single target execute which is perfectly fine, based on on its multitarget execute and would need a rather significant buff to offset the dmg lost on single target executes which is actually the majority of the fights in SoO and im fairly sure that destro is balanced around that fact.

[Xorn]

You have to look at it in the wider scheme of things, in which Demo doesn't objectively need buffing. I don't really have a problem with Shadowburn, so much as Havocing them off adds onto the boss; it's at that point I feel like it's a little abusive.

What you call abusive, others call skill.