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  1. #421
    I have heard the devs say that as well. This was at Bizz con so who knows, they may have changed their minds.
    They couldn't put in certain mechanics that demanded certain classes be present because a 10 man raid might not have those classes.

    I had hoped that would mean we would be banishing, gating, off tanking and enslaving our asses off.

  2. #422
    Moderator Alarinth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarkol View Post
    Erm, pretty sure that's completely false.
    You did say 'one of' the main reasons, but i've never heard that. What does that actually mean? Niche class abilities? Warlock gate ways?
    Actually I've heard this too, but in the sea of "10/25 vs 20" posts, I sadly cannot find the source. Fights like Instructor Razuvious (Priest mind control), Illidan (warlock tanking), and probably a lot more would be my guess of what they're referring to is.
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  3. #423
    Yeah, pretty sure it was a Blizzcon comment. Recent discussion has backtracked though and made it about balance. Not least I suppose because of the ability cull.

  4. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Alarinth View Post
    Actually I've heard this too, but in the sea of "10/25 vs 20" posts, I sadly cannot find the source. Fights like Instructor Razuvious (Priest mind control), Illidan (warlock tanking), and probably a lot more would be my guess of what they're referring to is.
    I think it's just the fact that 20 man almost guarantees one of every class. That's what this means i think. They know there's a very high chance of all classes being represented, so they can balance around that.

  5. #425
    Can't say that I like Blizzard's stance on this. I mean designing the raids so as to be a class niche on fights. First of all, the class representation is not equally distributed. That does not mean that low represented classes are worse (ie locks are extremely strong, yet low on choice). It is a matter of preference. Trying to enforce equal representation does not seem that normal. They can just balance the dps and healing numbers and let people decide. Or they could be a bit more vague and just try to balance a melee/ranged ratio.
    Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.

  6. #426
    Well, with the ability pruning not finalized before raids had to be designed, they couldn't very well include the niche ability mechanics in the first tier, could they.
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  7. #427
    I just hope that Demonology ends up being the big dog for the first tier of raiding. I miss it so much
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  8. #428
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaji View Post
    I just hope that Demonology ends up being the big dog for the first tier of raiding. I miss it so much
    It'd be nice if all 3 were fine options depending on the fight and their unique strengths.

    /dream
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  9. #429
    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    It'd be nice if all 3 were fine options depending on the fight and their unique strengths.

    /dream
    Yeah, that'd be nice. But I mean.... c'mon now. Let's be realistic.
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  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaji View Post
    I just hope that Demonology ends up being the big dog for the first tier of raiding. I miss it so much
    Demonology is fine on live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaji View Post
    Yeah, that'd be nice. But I mean.... c'mon now. Let's be realistic.
    ToT?

  11. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaji View Post
    Yeah, that'd be nice. But I mean.... c'mon now. Let's be realistic.
    Which is STILL one of the best arguments against pure classes remaining pure, but I digress.

    It was at the Blizzcon Q&A, along with the many, MANY questions about why they were killing off 10 man guilds and what they were going to do to help 10 man guilds transition to Mythic; someone asked about whether a return to fights with Mage/Warlock tanks, Mind Control, Enslave Demon, etc would be in the cards with the change to raid size. They said that it is something they would like to do, but likely only be required in Mythic difficulty where having one of every class was almost guaranteed. I am paraphrasing.

  12. #432
    Quote Originally Posted by Rakaji View Post
    I just hope that Demonology ends up being the big dog for the first tier of raiding. I miss it so much
    I can't say a whole lot from testing with others because in the earlier more single target raid testings like Gruul and Twins Orgron I was doing significantly better than the other locks in my group on a regular basis as Demo compared to destro and affliction, but today on Hunter I had to work really hard to AoE the adds and was still very middle of the overall raid pack and a destro lock came in on the last pull and just LOL AoE Chaos Bolt number 1 GG. It actually for the first time really irked me to see how stupid Charred Remains is in a raid setting and would love to see the talent get axed or the FnB part changed.

    I really really want to not play destro most of next expansion and am clinging to demo still. Hopefully the next patch with some Demonbolt updates is tomorrow as opposed to next week!

  13. #433
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    Yeah, tested Beastlord yesterday. Demo aoe is so awkward and cataclysm feels really wierd aswell.. destro thou is pretty stupid with charred remains, as it is superior to cataclysm on aoe fights atm

  14. #434
    Destruction was just absurdly strong on Beastlord and is clearly the strongest AoE-spec (maybe even across all classes) with charred remains. This is almost a constant AoE fight and within a 25 man raid group I managed to be on top with about 75k sustained dps until the boss went down. Demo is nowhere near that.

    So as it stands, Destruction with CR seems to be the "niche" spec for almost everything. It's clearly on top for single target, it's absurdly strong on AoE thanks to fire and brimstone and it's pretty good at being boring as fuck.
    Only situation where I could at least see Demo pull even is 2-3 target cleave, I wasn't too bad as demo at the orgron twins.
    Affliction? Forget Affliction. Warlock is a two spec class as of now.

    If I had to guess: After yesterdays raid-testing I think that fire and brimstone will finally get nerfed to the ground, but I'm also pretty sure that there won't be any compensation elsewhere.

  15. #435
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyand1337 View Post
    If I had to guess: After yesterdays raid-testing I think that fire and brimstone will finally get nerfed to the ground, but I'm also pretty sure that there won't be any compensation elsewhere.
    yeah, lets give it the old soul swap treatment and make it utterly worthless, god forbid any lock specs has a workable niche, sigh, whats up with all the ppl so butthurt about destro that they get so pety that they are actually asking for nerfs for their own class, and from the BL and method streams i saw, destro wasnt exactly that far ahead, yes they were top but not as much as some ppl here make it out to. besides, current numbers are pretty useless since there hasnt been any tuning pass, complain after that when it actually matters.

  16. #436
    Well, if you want to take my post as complaint: It's rather complaining that destruction dominates everything and there is practically no use for the seemingly much more interesting demonology spec.

    Besides that: Fire and Brimstone almost quadruples my sustained damage output if there is a use for it. That is far beyond any other AoE and it's pretty obvious that it's too powerful. Why would you want something like that to go live only to be nerfed on the second raid lockout. Remember ToT, after we afflictioned the shit out of the troll council? Result was a nerf to our single target capabilities.
    Yes, there were other classes close to destruction. Namely balance druids and arms warriors, both being considered clearly overpowered and even though they easily pull 50%+ more dps on single target their AoE couldn't multiply their output enough to reach destruction. You just can't deny that fire and brimstone is too powerful, destruction for itself makes affliction and demonology pointless and I would rather have a reasonably balanced AoE that leaves room for suitable single target capabilities and two other specs that can compete with that.

  17. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyand1337 View Post
    Well, if you want to take my post as complaint: It's rather complaining that destruction dominates everything and there is practically no use for the seemingly much more interesting demonology spec.

    Besides that: Fire and Brimstone almost quadruples my sustained damage output if there is a use for it. That is far beyond any other AoE and it's pretty obvious that it's too powerful. Why would you want something like that to go live only to be nerfed on the second raid lockout. Remember ToT, after we afflictioned the shit out of the troll council? Result was a nerf to our single target capabilities.
    Yes, there were other classes close to destruction. Namely balance druids and arms warriors, both being considered clearly overpowered and even though they easily pull 50%+ more dps on single target their AoE couldn't multiply their output enough to reach destruction. You just can't deny that fire and brimstone is too powerful, destruction for itself makes affliction and demonology pointless and I would rather have a reasonably balanced AoE that leaves room for suitable single target capabilities and two other specs that can compete with that.
    well, that is an opinion that demo is "More interesting" and its apparently yours, i however disagree i find the spec tedious, clunky, slow and boring and i dont want to be forced to play bcoz of ppl claimed 1 aspect of another spec is seemingly OP when infact it is that particular spec's only real strength. not saying that FnB couldnt get a nerf, it prolly could if there is a compensation for it in single target dps, also you could just ask for a buff to hellfire/immolation aura and either way, demo aoe should never come close to destro, its their niche after all and we dont really need any more nerfs to our class' niche, they have already gutted afflic's niche.

  18. #438
    The burst aoe of cataclysm as demo is so high which is at least one saving grace. Those people with gripes about having to go into melee to aoe as demonology can cover their bases simply with HoG, Cataclysm and pet felstorm.

    The part I have enjoyed most out of the raid testing so far? Confusing people no end on Flamebender with the cataclysm graphic - turns out is is much more visible than the vast majority of boss mechanics.

  19. #439
    FnB has a built-in tuning button where they can easily reduce its damage. Demo's aoe problems are much more complex, tho :/
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  20. #440
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    FnB has a built-in tuning button where they can easily reduce its damage. Demo's aoe problems are much more complex, tho :/
    I disagree!

    Increase range of HOG, hellfire and immo auro either passivity or old MF
    Let us cast immo aura/Hellfire on a target
    Hellfire/immo aura needs to do more damage, probably hog does abit much.

    Boom fixed
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