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  1. #621
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Also as far as the negativity, I think people are just bored / disappointed by a lot of their T100 talents (across classes). A lot of the designs are just way too spreadsheety / cerebral / subtle, or outright uncreative (Ravager: aka Bladestorm with a targeting reticule). Very few players really get deep into the theory / number-crunching and see spells & abilities that way (ie, objectively).

    Basically Demonbolt / Cata / DServ are just not what a lot of people wanted. They unwrapped an underwhelming present, and even if it's perfectly useful, they want to return it, because it disappointed them (even if they don't know what they really wanted instead).

    So people are a little more eager to quickly lynch these T100 talents because, well, they have some frustration to unload. And if the talent is painted 'bad' enough, there's a spark of hope it will become something cool that they want instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    We don't have furyvocation to get our entire fury bar back, the management is entirely different.
    I would definitely talent Fury-vocation.

    (even if it does sound like a convention Worgen would attend)
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-08-13 at 06:13 PM.

  2. #622
    Although, if I were to think about it, there MIGHT be the case to let it stack all the way up IF the fact that all 880 fury is spent in a 2 second window outweighs how inefficient it is. The gain of fury by casting others things MIGHT outweigh it. I'd have to see some simcraft numbers on it though.

  3. #623
    From what I posted on the beta.

    Some of it will be fixed via tuning hopefully but the point of Meta is that the skills are intended to be improved versions of the caster countepart and intended to be quite strong. The fact that there's no point in using Meta except to cast Cataclysm and glyphed Dark Soul once per minute or to dump a few MC charges is pretty concerning. Even with Demon Bolt, you'll just hop into Meta once a minute, dump your bar in a few Bolts, then continue on.

    There's no incentive for an extended Meta burn. It's just used in 10 second spurts of MC dumping.
    Meta skills such as Immolation Aura are extremely weak and expensive for what little damage they do while others like Chaos Wave are useless compared to Hand of Gul'dan.

    This leaves Doom, Touch of Chaos, and Soul Fire. Once tuning is done and Soul Fire is good again, Touch usage will drop once again and it doesn't even hit very hard to begin with. It's just instant and on a 1 second GCD so while the damage adds up on Recount/Skada/logs, you don't really feel more powerful. Doom is auto applied by Cataclysm once a minute. With snapshotting gone, thus stopping the rapid stance dancing, Metamorphosis for all intents and purposes may as well be an extension of Molten Core with nothing else really feeling to pack any power.

    Demo needs Chaos Wave to actually be worth using and for its AoE to be streamlined and made more impactful. Meta feels very lackluster currently because few of its abilities see any real use or have any real potency.
    Last edited by Bullettime; 2014-08-13 at 06:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    From my perspective it is an uncle who was is a "simple" slat of the earth person, who has religous beliefs I may or may not fully agree with, but who in the end of the day wants to go hope, kiss his wife, and kids, and enjoy their company.
    Connal defending child molestation

  4. #624
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Basically Demonbolt / Cata / DServ are just not what a lot of people wanted. They unwrapped an underwhelming present, and even if it's perfectly useful, they want to return it, because it disappointed them (even if they don't know what they really wanted instead).
    It's more like I opened a present to find that my parents had traded in my old car that I was perfectly happy with for a worse alternative that already needs repairs. It'll get me where I'm going but it'll stall 3 times on the way there.

    We don't actually have options with our 100 row, each spec has 1 talent that is very obviously the correct choice until tuning says otherwise. Though they'd have to do something very silly with tuning in order to make that happen.

    There's very obvious issues with some of these talents as well, since this is the demo thread: cataclysm has waaaaaayyyyy too much dmg packed into it. I'd be amazed if this doesn't cause pvp issues as well as the obvious pve issues. THAT heavy of burst has almost universally been an issue in MMORPG's and it's going to cause obvious issues that anyone could predict from a mile away.

    They're also adding a lot of clunk into all 3 of our specs for no reason after they just spent an entire expansion refining them... well at least 2 of them, demo has been clunky as all hell the entirety of MoP.

  5. #625
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gahddo View Post
    Using a blanket statement that makes it sound like using it at 2 stacks is somehow the be all and end all of the ability is like saying that an arcane mage has to clear his arcane charges at 4 everytime he hits it regardless of having AM stacks to spend. It's a bad way to think about anything.
    While we had the MC perk, it was exactly as Xorn is describing - used twice per minute. Celestalon even confirmed this was the intention. The reason it's working better right now is because the MC perk is gone, without a corresponding buff to Soul Fire, meaning Soul Fire is massively undertuned relative to both DB and TOC. This will be fixed in the numbers pass, I am certain. In fact, the re-evaluation of the Perks has probably thrown a lot of abilities out of whack, which is probably exactly why at this point they're going back for a numbers pass.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bullettime View Post
    Demo needs Chaos Wave to actually be worth using and for its AoE to be streamlined and made more impactful. Meta feels very lackluster currently because few of its abilities see any real use or have any real potency.
    Demo needs CW for PvP. I don't think changing stance is the best way to acheive the change in effect from HoG. HoG if it just functioned exactly the same, same Mastery use, in both stances would actually be a massive QoL improvement; because right now it's nothing more than a trap spell. To trade it in for burst, well, isn't that what the Glyph system is for? Make a glyph to remove the DoT component, pile it in to damage instead? That way it can be tuned completely seperately for PvP where the up front damage is more desirable.

  6. #626
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    They're also adding a lot of clunk into all 3 of our specs for no reason after they just spent an entire expansion refining them... well at least 2 of them, demo has been clunky as all hell the entirety of MoP.
    Yes that's what I'm getting at. @gahddo is asking essentially, 'Guys, this is a DPS gain, why are you complaining?' Which is valid from some perspectives.

    I think the problem is people don't want just a definitive numbers gain. They also want something fun, appealing, useful, comfortable, rotation-enhancing rather than rotation-clunking, etc etc etc etc.

    The problem is just that all of those listed things are very subjective, whereas asking 'Does this make DPS go up vs. not having a talent?' is fairly objective. So depending on personality and what you're looking for out of the game, T100 can seem perfectly nice or absolutely awful.

    If you compare, say, T75 though, you can see the contrast. I suspect very few people go to pick their T75 and are like "ugh, whatever." All 3 are fairly bright, shiny, and appealing and also a definitive numbers game. That's where T100 is falling flat, IMO.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-08-13 at 07:10 PM.

  7. #627
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    Yes that's what I'm getting at. @gahddo is asking essentially, 'Guys, this is a DPS gain, why are you complaining?' Which is valid from some perspectives.

    I think the problem is people don't want just a definitive numbers gain. They also want something fun, appealing, useful, comfortable, rotation-enhancing rather than rotation-clunking, etc etc etc etc.

    The problem is just that all of those listed things are very subjective, whereas asking 'Does this make DPS go up vs. not having a talent?' is fairly objective. So depending on personality and what you're looking for out of the game, T100 can seem perfectly nice or absolutely awful.

    If you compare, say, T75 though, you can see the contrast. I suspect very few people go to pick their T75 and are like "ugh, whatever." All 3 are fairly bright, shiny, and appealing and also a definitive numbers game. That's where T100 is falling flat, IMO.
    It's not just that. I actually really like Demonbolt; it's not much, but it's another button to press and it's like 'Yeah, now I'm in Meta, pew pew' - at these gear levels when you might not have so many MC charges, it really stands out against ToC spam. Yet, objectively, it's just straight up inferior under most circumstances to Cataclysm, because Cata will simply hit more things. Simple lack of attention to detail like that is just frustrating.

    It's like, when designing Chaotic Resources, they knew the last thing Demo needs is another fucking AoE button, so they gave us a nice ST ability. Then just completely forgot that when coming up with the alternatives on the row.

    It's all fine Celestalon telling me I don't need to spec MF or Cataclysm. But what's the alternatives on the row? I look at my Mage and right there I can have Meteor or Prismatic Crystal, but if I didn't want the extra button, then Unstable Magic should still give a passable AoE DPS increase. That's completely missing from the 90 row, and messed up on the 100 row because of our already massive cooldown stacking that makes Cataclysm a no brainer over an Infernal, which probably wouldn't make up mucha against the FG I lose. When the talent I want to use, DB, just won't work at all for those means.
    Last edited by Jessicka; 2014-08-13 at 07:24 PM.

  8. #628
    The Lightbringer Skayth's Avatar
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    Is it just me, or am I the only one that actually wants cataclysm to be better than demonbolt? Demonbolt just seems like so much garbage stacked into a single talent, and basically having blizz telling us, to be an arcane mage for those few casts (2 or 3?) And yea, highly disappointed in Servatude like everyone else.

    So they still havent fixed doom...

  9. #629
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It's not just that. I actually really like Demonbolt; it's not much, but it's another button to press and it's like 'Yeah, now I'm in Meta, pew pew' - at these gear levels when you might not have so many MC charges, it really stands out against ToC spam. Yet, objectively, it's just straight up inferior under most circumstances to Cataclysm, because Cata will simply hit more things. Simple lack of attention to detail like that is just frustrating.
    Right, yeah. Demonbolt's basic concept is fine — "Let's add something spicy and special to Meta".

    Then for some reason, they felt the need to turn it into a convoluted pretzel ability instead of just "I AM LEVEL 100, AND NOW I GET A COOL TOY".

    I'm not even judging good/bad here. I'm just saying it's way too subtle, even if it's 'good' in a purely-practical sense. You're level 100. If you get a Soul Fire replacement in Meta that just looks awesome, does way more damage, and 3-cleaves, so what? It's OK if it's slightly stupid — it's flashy, fun, tangibly rewarding and makes you feel awesome for hitting max level.

    That IMO is what T100 is missing so badly right now. It doesn't capture that "HA HA, I AM A WARLOCK" sense that T75 does, yet it still shoves itself aggressively into your rotation / ability play. At least T90 is basically inoffensive, changing very little and quietly being bland in the background.

  10. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by Lovestar View Post
    You're level 100. If you get a Soul Fire replacement in Meta that just looks awesome, does way more damage, and 3-cleaves, so what? It's OK if it's slightly stupid — it's flashy, fun, tangibly rewarding and makes you feel awesome for hitting max level.
    This is exactly what I want Demonbolt to be: a more powerful SF replacement that also maybe cleaves a little. We need to make this happen.

  11. #631
    Ughhh I hadn't even checked or noticed they removed the Soul Fire perk...
    Last edited by DesireKT; 2014-08-13 at 09:44 PM.

  12. #632
    Quote Originally Posted by DesireKT View Post
    Soul Fire costs 64 Fury not 80 so 1.81640625
    It did with the perk, but they eliminated that perk. So yeah, it needs a tuning

  13. #633
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesireKT View Post
    Soul Fire costs 64 Fury not 80 so 1.81640625
    They cut the MC Perk, so it's 80 again. They didn't fix the coefficient though, so it screwed things up. Same is true for a lot of Perks' effects, I think that's the reason for the numbers pass.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Xorn View Post
    This is exactly what I want Demonbolt to be: a more powerful SF replacement that also maybe cleaves a little. We need to make this happen.
    I'm more than happy for it not to replace; Meta is at this point on Live just about SF spamming, and on Beta gear levels mostly ToC spamming... it is nice to have something that mixes it up a little. Again, I actually quite like how it's working, once it's tuned I'm sure it would be technically just fine, the issue is the impracticality next to Cata. Some splash/cleave would be good for that.

  14. #634
    Ya I was slow rechecking that before posting. Honestly I like it when it cost 40 and it was 100% clear MC SF >>>> ToC.

  15. #635
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    I'm more than happy for it not to replace; Meta is at this point on Live just about SF spamming, and on Beta gear levels mostly ToC spamming... it is nice to have something that mixes it up a little. Again, I actually quite like how it's working, once it's tuned I'm sure it would be technically just fine, the issue is the impracticality next to Cata. Some splash/cleave would be good for that.
    Yeah I was just throwing out an over-the-top example of something that feels "YEAHHHHHH!" when you hit 100.

    That's the problem — Demonbolt doesn't really need anything except for Cata to go away or die. It's perfectly "fine" in isolation.

    It's also really underwhelming. But not for an ability. If it was just an ability you got automatically while leveling, it would be perfectly neat. But for you "I AM LEVEL 100 LET'S GO RAWR!" it's like... uh... that's it?

    So there's 2 totally different things going on. One is its literal value / ability to compete; that is very fixable even now because it's mostly small tweaks. Two is how underwhelming T100 is from a toybox perspective; and I'm pretty sure it's way too late for any changes of that magnitude.

    edit:
    I mean even something simple like the Demonbolt debuff's damage boost also applying to other abilities (like Immo Aura / Chaos Wave), or boosting Demon damage (so big Felstorms), etc etc. Something really simplistic like that and DB gets its AoE tweak without much mechanical redesign.

    It's very doable, it's just a bit dry and unexciting.
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2014-08-13 at 10:05 PM.

  16. #636
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    I'm feeling really good about Demo having switched to using ToC in Meta and SF in caster. I just felt so mobile on Blackhand testing and damage was just behind the mages which was awesome as those guys are insanely strong right now.

  17. #637
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    I'm feeling really good about Demo having switched to using ToC in Meta and SF in caster. I just felt so mobile on Blackhand testing and damage was just behind the mages which was awesome as those guys are insanely strong right now.
    exactly, it just felt right, also, demon seems really good for that fight, with demonic leap and damage on the move with ToC

  18. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Liquidsteel View Post
    I'm feeling really good about Demo having switched to using ToC in Meta and SF in caster. I just felt so mobile on Blackhand testing and damage was just behind the mages which was awesome as those guys are insanely strong right now.
    I concur. Even playing with Demonbolt (since apparently it was too hard to see bombs under Cataclysm) I was still under mages doing lolprismaticcrystal on that fight. Demo is really a great spec in beta even before tuning.

  19. #639
    What about demonbolt increasing its own and all fury costings spells damage dmg coupled with the fury cost increase which could make some interesting choices.

  20. #640
    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalosh Whalescream View Post
    What about demonbolt increasing its own and all fury costings spells damage dmg coupled with the fury cost increase which could make some interesting choices.
    seems hard to play, and would suck since we have no haste, and we would be alot more in caster form

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