WoD Beta Demonology Discussion

[DesireKT]

It only spawns imps if it crits. Honestly to me the 15second timer between ticks has become a little old, but no matter the period a dot ticks at the current system there will always be that scaled "phantom tick" at the end of a DoT unless you reach that magic haste threshold at an exact value (which will never happen).

So unless they completely disable the chance to proc on "phantom ticks" it could always potentially be better to let it fall off because 9 extra chances to proc over a 10 minute fight is still better than 0 extra chances even if they reduce the proc rate or scale it based on your Crit. The point where you'd actually lose a dot tick of damage wouldn't occur until the length of the fight extended to the tick period for Doom.

For example Doom ticks at roughly 14 seconds in the gear I currently have on beta. In order for me to lose one ticks worth of damage over the course of the fight the total fight length would have to last longer than 15 minutes because I'd potentially lose 1 second of up time per application of Doom. Therefore the only way to lose a tick is for the fight to last longer than the tick period in minutes.

[Orloth]

Exactly, which makes it optimal to be just over the value of Haste for a new 'phantom tick'. Personally, I'd prefer they removed ability for phantom ticks to proc imps (or reduced it by the % value of the phantom tick) so that it doesn't make Doom the one DoT that you actually want to let fall off, but that's just my little OCD voice insisting that things be neat and tidy.

[evertonbelmontt]

I said that because I don't think it's possible to get rid of phantom tick proc chance without messing things up.
If they could, I think they should have done it first place... because if it's an issue based on the amount of players doing it, then it's gonna be an issue right off the bat.

Like the bug we used to do to get double gateways. VERY few people knew how to do it and even fewer knew how to take advantage of it properly (two gateways on ToT wasn't needed at all), and yet they fixed it.

[PickleballAce]

Like the bug we used to do to get double gateways. VERY few people knew how to do it and even fewer knew how to take advantage of it properly (two gateways on ToT wasn't needed at all), and yet they fixed it.

The first time I did this, our RL lost his shit. For some reason he really got a kick out of double gateways.

[Baconeggcheese]

I don't get what he means, It's always gonna happen with the way they have it set up and ofc people will just let doom fall off before re-applying especially with it doing that.

iono I personally wouldn't have mentioned it, it's not game breaking but they'll feel like fixing it.

[Lucidious]

Quick question for anyone who has done any testing. So when taking goserv and demonic servitude does the 2 min doomguard do more damage ST than the other pets? Also does it silence when you summon it? Cause if it does and it hits harder than the 2 min imp with the glyph of Demon training that would be pretty sick for PvP. I don't have beta so I can't test it so if anyone could test it for me it would be greatly appreciated.

[DesireKT]

GoServ has doomguard cooldowns now?

[Archmage Arugal]

It does not, no. If you take GoServ with DServ, you still only get the base options of Imp, Voidwalker, Felhound, Succubus, and Felguard

[Lucidious]

I was under the impression the new demons would be made part of goserv if servitude was chosen. It would make no sense for them not to be. Would seem like flawed design. Has anyone brought that up to Celstalon?

[Alarinth]

The first time I did this, our RL lost his shit. For some reason he really got a kick out of double gateways.

Hah! So did ours. If you did this as Affliction at max range, and popped Dark Soul and Berserking, you could actually get out a triple gateway. Now that looked stupid.

It does not, no. If you take GoServ with DServ, you still only get the base options of Imp, Voidwalker, Felhound, Succubus, and Felguard

This surely can't be intentional? Seems like an error on their part.

[Jessicka]

I was under the impression the new demons would be made part of goserv if servitude was chosen. It would make no sense for them not to be. Would seem like flawed design. Has anyone brought that up to Celstalon?

Its been brought up repeatedly, it will happen, just not implemented yet.

[Lucidious]

Thanks Jess, I would assume doomguard would be the superior choice for burst dps ST using the goserv/servitude combo "well that's what I'm hoping for anyway" and either the counterspell or cripple would be a cool ability for PvP every 2 minutes. Felguard with doomguard on use or perhaps double doomguard. Makes servitude a fun talent for demo PvP. I can't wait to try it. Hopefully they will have the doomguard use cripple since the fel pup already uses the counter spell. Gives us more utility and options which makes things more fun.

[bio347]

I was thinking the other day: how much benefit do you think there'll be to correct DS timing relative to Doom? Because DoTs only update their stats when they tick, it's possible to get either one OR two ticks of DS-powered Doom, depending on when you pop DS relative to your Doom ticks.

To illustrate:
t=0s Cast DS
t=8s Doom tick, does not benefit from DS, updates Doom to DS strength
t=20s DS expires
t=23s Doom tick, does benefit from DS, re-updates Doom to non-DS strength

versus

t=0s Cast DS
t=2s Doom tick, does not benefit from DS, updates Doom to DS strength
t=17s Doom tick, does benefit from DS, Doom remains at DS strength
t=20s DS expires
t=32s Doom tick, does benefit from DS, re-updates Doom to non-DS strength

Likewise, if you have the DS glyph, it'd be entirely possible to not get ANY benefit to Doom from it. Particularly with low haste.

[Deleted]

Are you sure that's how DoTs work?

I thought each tick calculated its damage dynamically. If you have trinket procs up, your DoT ticks benefit from them. If they fall off before the next tick, they no longer gain the additional damage.

[bio347]

You know, I don't actually know for sure. I swear I remember reading something like that somewhere, but I may have just made it up in a dream or something. So I went and tested it on the beta, and yes, you're right. The damage automagically updates mid-tick. Perhaps it was haste updating only on ticks that I was thinking of? I'm not sure now.

HOWEVER, the issue remains, just shifted in time:

t=0s Cast DS
t=8s Doom tick, benefits from DS
t=20s DS expires
t=23s Doom tick, does not benefit from DS

versus

t=0s Cast DS
t=2s Doom tick, benefits from DS
t=17s Doom tick, benefits from DS
t=20s DS expires
t=32s Doom tick, does not benefit from DS

It's still one tick during DS versus two, and it's still entirely possible to skip over Doom with the 10s glyphed DS. More pressing, that latter point also applies to 10s duration trinket procs and the even-shorter-duration weapon enchant procs.

[Filabane]

This is exactly been what I've been trying to bring up for months at this point. I've tweeted about it, several different times, but I went basically entirely ignored. With the removal of snapshotting Doom is VERY awkward. It's very possible for Doom to miss out entirely on very important short term buffs. And on the very rare chance you'll get super lucky and catch on right on tick. That would make balancing almost impossible do the the oddly high spikes that Doom can do with luck. People and/or devs will see that and consider that the norm. Given the new DoT system Doom's 15sec tic timer is a relic of the past. It needs to be shortened.

[Orloth]

I don't see as much of an issue here, as it would be almost impossible to predict/control. It just means doom's damage has a bit more variance then normal. However, I would also like to see some theorycrafting on it, just to make sure. Code the sim to cast DS just before a Doom tick and see if it gives a noticeable dps increase. My gut says it won't be worth the effort, but feel free to test the numbers before jumping to conclusions.

[DesireKT]

This is exactly been what I've been trying to bring up for months at this point. I've tweeted about it, several different times, but I went basically entirely ignored. With the removal of snapshotting Doom is VERY awkward. It's very possible for Doom to miss out entirely on very important short term buffs. And on the very rare chance you'll get super lucky and catch on right on tick. That would make balancing almost impossible do the the oddly high spikes that Doom can do with luck. People and/or devs will see that and consider that the norm. Given the new DoT system Doom's 15sec tic timer is a relic of the past. It needs to be shortened.

I saw the same thing as well and completely agree it should be reworked. It's not hard either really make it tick every 5 seconds and Imps shoot less or they do 1/3rd the damage and generate 1/3rd the fury per hit to be equal to the damage from before hand. It would let Doom interact better with dynamic procs and buffs and help smooth the variance in damage from Doom. Downside I guess would be the need to rework Glyph of Imp Swarm since it would be a flat out nerf but you could easily spawn more imps and/or shorten the cooldown a little. Not terribly difficult to rebalance imo.

Can't wait to get DoT timers that scale dynamically with updates to show the next incoming tick for your Doom because they rescaled with haste.

[Jessicka]

I saw the same thing as well and completely agree it should be reworked. It's not hard either really make it tick every 5 seconds and Imps shoot less or they do 1/3rd the damage and generate 1/3rd the fury per hit to be equal to the damage from before hand. It would let Doom interact better with dynamic procs and buffs and help smooth the variance in damage from Doom. Downside I guess would be the need to rework Glyph of Imp Swarm since it would be a flat out nerf but you could easily spawn more imps and/or shorten the cooldown a little. Not terribly difficult to rebalance imo.

Can't wait to get DoT timers that scale dynamically with updates to show the next incoming tick for your Doom because they rescaled with haste.

If it ticked more often, they could probably just cut the 20% crit perk. That said, Doom is a much less important part of our damage now, I can't see dicking about to game individual ticks becoming a thing.

[Nighthaven-]

How much of imaginary haste is needed to get doom to tick every 10s?