WoD Beta Demonology Discussion

[Zevoa]

Important tweet that Celestalon sent out (not sure if it was already posted here). I'll post it in the general warlock forum as well, but essentially the class buffs/nerfs are specifically for level 90 6.0.2 content because the disparity was too high. This gives me hope that the "band-aid fixes" will be ripped off when WoD drops and lvl100 dps finally matters.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...15598957064193

[Leyl]

Yeah, so, I'm not even b/c I can't even.

[Nyang]

Yeah, of course. Since then I've not seen a single Demo/Cataclysm APL that wasn't full of holes when you went through what it was actually doing. I've never seen a Servitude one, it's basically taken for granted that its useless but I've never seen the math produced to back it up and confirm just how bad it is :S

What do you mean by "full of holes", exactly? If you know a way to get some performance boost with the demonology APL, please say so.
And the demo APL has had support for demonic servitude for quite a while. There were a few problems with the DG/TG's energy regeneration, but they should be working close to how they do ingame by now.

[skitzin]

But the issue hasn't gone away. All that has happened is a set of different classes now occupies the top and bottom spots.

Not to mention we don't even use Demonbolt at 90 so why the nerf to that as well?

Sorry but this is just simple deflection in my opinion.

[Jessicka]

What do you mean by "full of holes", exactly? If you know a way to get some performance boost with the demonology APL, please say so.
And the demo APL has had support for demonic servitude for quite a while. There were a few problems with the DG/TG's energy regeneration, but they should be working close to how they do ingame by now.

The APL was just effectively replacing Cataclysm with Demonbolt, which meant it was cutting Meta short and not using Soul Fire in Meta at all, favouring ToC when SF is demonstrably better. There's also discussion a few pages back around here in this very thread that points at similar issues when trying to swap up just how many Demonbolts are cast, with random Meta cancelling.

The APL seems simply too focused on Demonbolt that the other talents aren't taken on board in order to make proper comparisons.

[Kashii]

I think a 30%+ disparity between top and bottom is hard not to describe as being horrendous. And it was horrendous to be playing the likes of Hunters, which many groups would have had no hesitation of kicking in order to take a class that can do 30% or more additional damage for no good reason, even when the group doesn't need it.

I think it's clear the lack of urgency or clarity that they do intend to even partially rebuff with any certainty means you probably shouldn't be holding your breath on that once we get to 100 either.

If there is an outlier spec, then clearly there should be adjustments (at the bottom as well as the top) but you draw reasonable conclusions about performance based on a data set from content that is so ridiculously nerfed...when mobs die in two casts.

They need better data before such huge rebalancing - especially since they are so SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW to revert.

[Jessicka]

If there is an outlier spec, then clearly there should be adjustments (at the bottom as well as the top) but you draw reasonable conclusions about performance based on a data set from content that is so ridiculously nerfed...when mobs die in two casts.

They need better data before such huge rebalancing - especially since they are so SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW to revert.

Of course they do, and they have 3 weeks of Beta, then a couple of weeks of Live before the Raids are open before they do so to gather it, that's plenty of time as they'll already have pretty good educated guesses from their own models, bots and simulations.

[Leyl]

Of course they do, and they have 3 weeks of Beta, then a couple of weeks of Live before the Raids are open before they do so to gather it, that's plenty of time as they'll already have pretty good educated guesses from their own models, bots and simulations.

So five weeks of guild masters not knowing WTF is going on with Warlocks and having to make snap decisions on whether to bench them all, or to not even allow them in a raid and THEN they can fix us if something is amiss? I hate to say this, but these kinds of risks in progression raid environments are not ones leadership of great guilds are willing to make. Having a stable setup, and data accurately represented is pretty important to a lot of people. When they pull out the nerf bat on a level 100 ability, and also all abilities around it, they are stating that demonology warlocks are 1) too viable for level 100 end-game play or 2) wanting to ward off other players/leaders from coming to the class by such large swings. In both respects, when deciding slots, this means leaders will make choices that do not favor slotting warlocks.

With a 30 day window of opportunity for fixes remaining, and even less of a time than that to decide raid rosters, I do not think they have "plenty of time" for their educated guesses to ring true or false. Quite the opposite, as far as planning goes, they are out of time. Knee-jerk reactions are not the solution at the 6.0.2 level. But hey, I guess we can ignore the social aspect of raid guilds entirely, or bank on them ruining a player's experience and being satisfied with that as a designer.

[andromalia]

I hate to say this, but these kinds of risks in progression raid environments are not ones leadership of great guilds are willing to make.

How do you know this? I hate to be that guy but your guild is West 486 with a Garrosh kill in May. You weren't exactly burning the doors down to Garrosh's lair. I've personally raided top 20 when I was in my prime and my wife has raided world 1. This is not how these guilds work.

[Jessicka]

So five weeks of guild masters not knowing WTF is going on with Warlocks and having to make snap decisions on whether to bench them all, or to not even allow them in a raid and THEN they can fix us if something is amiss? I hate to say this, but these kinds of risks in progression raid environments are not ones leadership of great guilds are willing to make. Having a stable setup, and data accurately represented is pretty important to a lot of people. When they pull out the nerf bat on a level 100 ability, and also all abilities around it, they are stating that demonology warlocks are 1) too viable for level 100 end-game play or 2) wanting to ward off other players/leaders from coming to the class by such large swings. In both respects, when deciding slots, this means leaders will make choices that do not favor slotting warlocks.

With a 30 day window of opportunity for fixes remaining, and even less of a time than that to decide raid rosters, I do not think they have "plenty of time" for their educated guesses to ring true or false. Quite the opposite, as far as planning goes, they are out of time. Knee-jerk reactions are not the solution at the 6.0.2 level. But hey, I guess we can ignore the social aspect of raid guilds entirely, or bank on them ruining a player's experience and being satisfied with that as a designer.

Welcome to the start of an expansion.

Really, by now I think it should be pretty well accepted that the first few weeks of the first tier are going to be a clusterfuck of tuning. I'll just point at Magmaw, where after about 3 weeks of having a Demo Warlock just hose down the adds with roomsized Hellfire/Immolation, suddenly having to switch tactics and get a Frost DK to kite them instead. I recall that change alone set my guild back at least a week at the time because we had to readjust. It happens. Guilds in those weeks are in immense flux anyway as players return and move around, change mains etc. It's a chaotic time, it's unrealistic to expect such a smooth transition.

That's probably why they have multiple raid instances and staggered opening, so things will be a lot less choppy when the final instance and final boss is opened, the thing that actually matters in the tier.

[Baconeggcheese]

Of course they do, and they have 3 weeks of Beta, then a couple of weeks of Live before the Raids are open before they do so to gather it, that's plenty of time as they'll already have pretty good educated guesses from their own models, bots and simulations.

TBH seeing what they do, I highly doubt they have any magic bots or sims where they check this stuff. It seems pretty realistic that they just look at player statistics and adjust relative to that.

and considering there's probably not gonna be any raid testing in the next few weeks...

- - - Updated - - -

How do you know this? I hate to be that guy but your guild is West 486 with a Garrosh kill in May. You weren't exactly burning the doors down to Garrosh's lair. I've personally raided top 20 when I was in my prime and my wife has raided world 1. This is not how these guilds work.

To be fair, his guild in that position is the exact type of guild that works that way in my experience. They tend to act like they're something they're not, and they think they're emulating "top guilds" by doing this or that elitist crazy thing when in fact most "top guilds" really don't function that way at all.

[andromalia]

To be fair, his guild in that position is the exact type of guild that works that way in my experience. They tend to act like they're something they're not, and they think they're emulating "top guilds" by doing this or that elitist crazy thing when in fact most "top guilds" really don't function that way at all.

Pretty much this. Most top guilds stack the OP class per encounter and bash their heads against it until it's dead, making minor adjustments as needed. Most of their raiders have 2-3 alts raid ready and those that don't will often sit if their class is not optimal for that encounter. These are the guys and gals that don't get all butthurt because they missed a boss during progression.

[Hellfury]

Pretty much this. Most top guilds stack the OP class per encounter and bash their heads against it until it's dead, making minor adjustments as needed. Most of their raiders have 2-3 alts raid ready and those that don't will often sit if their class is not optimal for that encounter. These are the guys and gals that don't get all butthurt because they missed a boss during progression.

you still need tatics that are worked on the stop not read in a site.

[Leyl]

How do you know this? I hate to be that guy but your guild is West 486 with a Garrosh kill in May. You weren't exactly burning the doors down to Garrosh's lair. I've personally raided top 20 when I was in my prime and my wife has raided world 1. This is not how these guilds work.

That's great, but the guild rank is 50 in 10m, and we migrated from 10 to 25. West ranking in terms of speed 10M was 228th guild. I'm not saying I'm in my prime either, but that was when EQ was the MMO of choice, and Vex Thal was the raid to beat. Dick measurements aside; this is a thing. Lets move speed off the consideration table, and move effectiveness on to the table. If the spec is not effective at DPS; it might not get a chance to shine at all. As far as elitism goes, no, we're not elitists assholes by any stretch. The stereotype is out there, but no, we don't fit that bill. Its great that assumptions are being made though; totally cool. Sitting is one thing, but getting one boss kill a week for four weeks straight is something nobody wants to go through; been there, done that, moved on with life.

[Hellfury]

Pretty much this. Most top guilds stack the OP class per encounter and bash their heads against it until it's dead, making minor adjustments as needed. Most of their raiders have 2-3 alts raid ready and those that don't will often sit if their class is not optimal for that encounter. These are the guys and gals that don't get all butthurt because they missed a boss during progression.

Just to add another thing, thats guild effort and mindset for world firsts, after it goes to farm process that mindset just puff dissipates and everyone will fight heavly for a spot because now its time to get geared to do some ranking, and even some months after the first kill your damage maters and if the class cant compete ppl will get sad

[andromalia]

Just to add another thing, thats guild effort and mindset for world firsts, after it goes to farm process that mindset just puff dissipates and everyone will fight heavly for a spot because now its time to get geared to do some ranking, and even some months after the first kill your damage maters and if the class cant compete ppl will get sad

I experienced the opposite (and this is why I will NEVER care about DPS rankings again) where we would willingly sit for each other, or help people outrageously pad meters during farm for ranks.

- - - Updated - - -

you still need tatics that are worked on the stop not read in a site.

When I was raiding high end in late ICC, early Cata, I did not even run a boss mod because they weren't generally accurate on bleeding edge content.

[Werst]

While I respect what Leyl and others have said having raided in a few top 20 US guilds (I basically quit after a late 2013 kill of h.garrosh to just help friends randomly when I want to log on, not the "job" of a HC raider anymore. The situation is more like the raid leader/officers are WTF'ing on 11 classes. Sure you can bank on fotm stacking. Its not so much you deliberately get sat but progression has always encouraged stacking so you aren't in so you have less experience than comparable raiders (keep in mind top end not avg guilds) so they funnel gear to the star performers, give the players playing those classes tons more trigger time on the bosses, and thus you can be left "behind the wave" for an entire progression pull. Is that fun? Yes most top end raiders have (and are req to have) multiple alts so you can split raids first week...

Its not so much a "get benched" in a punitive sense it just sets up a chain reaction driven by progression pressures of min/maxing that simply can get you on the B/alt squad for all of progression. Which is what matters to a true progression raider. (or should more than gearscore or padding/ranking). Most average guilds/raid schedules will have 3 night weeks, roster by who is consistent/loyal/liked/etc while still balancing the raid, and maybe a couple of swing alts but only a select few. Those guilds are more likely to group by social or reliability standards than min/max fotm.

[Deleted]

If guild is atleast semi-competitive, like top50 in the west and has healthy raid roster size, only reason in my eyes to bring lesser dps class is that it has very good raid utility or is filling specific item type like mail agi+ranged weapons for hunters so you don't waste gear that drops. Old 25man guilds might have roster size of 25-30 mans. With 20man size there is like 7 ranged spots. With 10-12 ranged dps in the guild, it's very likely that guild would bring 0-1 warlocks if they were doing worse dps than mages, hunters, shadowpriests, balance druids, ele shamans. Just like when we raided in MoP, warlocks were benched zero times during our progression because we were op class, while some of the other ranged classes had to bench players. Like if Warlocks > Mages > rest, we would first bring all warlocks, then mages and fill rest of the spots with other ranged classes.

[Count Zero]

Hrm, hypothetical scenario, future fights with a "no resource cost" type mechanic on our abilities, would anything else for level 100 characters be more OP than 10-stack Demonbolt spam ?

[DesireKT]

Don't those mechanics typically stick to primary resources? Rage Mana Energy? But yes 10stack DB would destroy everything else in the game making that phase of the encounter obsolete with a few demo locks.