Why can't MMORPG have more way to level?

[RoninaThorstone]

How does leveling extract more money from you? It's just more time. Like 3 days at most time to level. Mmo players today just seem to want to rush to end game then rush through that then be left with not much else to do.

Maybe because some players find raids fun and kill X boars a few thousand times not fun?

[Fencers]

More viable ways to level than quest grinding? Why can't I just join an MMO and level at the same rate as people doing quest grinding, but me grinding dungeons with a group of friends?

Many MMOs have been created like this. It is more likely that your degree of experience &/or personal bias is limited.

For example; Players can level completely in GW2 via crafting, PVP or dungeon running. Rift allows one to level through dungeoneering exclusively if they wish.

[Christan]

If you're talking about wow im fairly sure dungeons are quicker to level in if youre running it with friends.

running with friends is insanely faster than running with random people, and many mmo's do have alternatives to questing

ffxiv fates/dungeons(leaving levequests out since...they're quests even if repeatable), wow dungeons/battlegrounds....
not really kept up with other mmo's but i'm sure a majority either req grinding mobs/quests, along with other alternatives.

Maybe because some players find raids fun and kill X boars a few thousand times not fun?

you seem to mis-understand how close to repeatable quests spamming dungeons are,
kill X sets of mobs in Y order Z amount of times
quests - kill X go to new area(not repeated like a dungeon) kill Y Z A and B, go to new area--so on

spamming dungeons is hellatiously repetitive, in some games it is as fast if not slightly faster than questing, it all depends on your group.

pug groups in dungeon finder, will not be as fast, pre-made groups, are usually faster depending on players skill
(yes nothing in lower dungeons will kill you, but if players are dodging shit, means healer and dps as well usually, not all games have healers weak as heck in combat)
one more DD like whm/sch in cleric stance(ffxiv) can help speed things along a lot

[Barnabas]

Maybe because some players find raids fun and kill X boars a few thousand times not fun?

Then why not just play a skill based mmo if you dislike leveling? Plenty out there to choose from like eve, shin megami, eq:next or ryzom?

[Pool of the Dead]

More viable ways to level than quest grinding? Why can't I just join an MMO and level at the same rate as people doing quest grinding, but me grinding dungeons with a group of friends?

Grinding dungeons with an instant queue is faster.

I don't understand your complaint.

[Arewn]

How does leveling extract more money from you? It's just more time. Like 3 days at most time to level. Mmo players today just seem to want to rush to end game then rush through that then be left with not much else to do.

Time is money, literally in the case of subscription games such as WoW. The longer they bait you into "trying to get to the actual game" by leveling to cap, the more you pay in subscription fees.
3 days is a rather ridiculous claim. You can certainly powerlevel to cap in 3 days (or less), but that's not what most people are capable of. You'd have to be somewhat adept at the game, have an account that already has a level cap character with which you can get exp+ gear, and be on some sort of vacation where you're able to dedicate 3 full days to singlemindedly leveling.

[RoninaThorstone]

Then why not just play a skill based mmo if you dislike leveling? Plenty out there to choose from like eve, shin megami, eq:next or ryzom?

And which one of those has raiding?

[Ferocity]

And which one of those has raiding?

Problem here is that many people look at MMORPGs being primarily about raiding and don't want to do anything else, which is a very bad notion. Developers (mostly Blizzard) partly listened to this and made leveling as streamlined, easy and fast as possible, and other companies followed the suit. Among all these only WoW is truly sustainable to be based on such idea, just because of trademark, advertisement and past success of WoW.

People should go away from the idea that MMORPGs should work like that, it isn't MOBA, it isn't some fighting game with arenas, MMORPGs are about world, exploration, dungeons (not tunnels), progressing your character statistically and through the story.

And out of those MMORPGs, WoW has the most means to level - you get exp just from sneezing in the game. You just need to play the game and not try to skip 99% of its content as fast as possible.

Time is money, literally in the case of subscription games such as WoW. The longer they bait you into "trying to get to the actual game" by leveling to cap, the more you pay in subscription fees.

"Endgame" isn't actual game. It might be looked at for some people (who are mostly into raiding), but far from by anyone. Just read into this word - "endgame", game ended, finished, completed, period, you just do same 1-2 high-end raid dungeons to farm gear or trying to progress while Blizzard is making another dungeon. Players (and by this I mean actual players and not "raiders") don't buy the game just because it has some "Dragon's Lair" raid in the end. No. They buy for its actual content and not for the last dungeon.

And if WoW leveling is very slow for people, perhaps they should reconsider playing any kind of CRPGs entirely?

[Fencers]

Problem here is that many people look at MMORPGs being primarily about raiding and don't want to do anything else, which is a very bad notion.

It's possible some people look at raiding as the most enjoyable aspect of 2nd era MMOs. Which is neither a good or bad notion, it's just the game mode they enjoy.

[Arewn]

"Endgame" isn't actual game. It might be looked at for some people (who are mostly into raiding), but far from by anyone. Just read into this word - "endgame", game ended, finished, completed, period, you just do same 1-2 high-end raid dungeons to farm gear or trying to progress while Blizzard is making another dungeon. Players (and by this I mean actual players and not "raiders") don't buy the game just because it has some "Dragon's Lair" raid in the end. No. They buy for its actual content and not for the last dungeon.

And if WoW leveling is very slow for people, perhaps they should reconsider playing any kind of CRPGs entirely?

End game simply references the content that's available (sometimes exclusively available) when you reach level cap. It's not literally "the end".
Are you trying to argue that WoW/Blizzard/The community DOESN'T put a very heavy focus on level cap content? I mean... 90% of patch content adds to the "end game" (level cap)'s content. Even if I was lacking in other points (which I'm not), I feel that alone speaks for itself.

[Ferocity]

End game simply references the content that's available (sometimes exclusively available) when you reach level cap. It's not literally "the end".
Are you trying to argue that WoW/Blizzard/The community DOESN'T put a very heavy focus on level cap content? I mean... 90% of patch content adds to the "end game" (level cap)'s content. Even if I was lacking in other points (which I'm not), I feel that alone speaks for itself.

There is nothing wrong in adding content like raids, which are the end content, and they are there to make people keep playing after reaching level cap. That's how it works in WoW and its clones.

However it is wrong to completely neglect all the other content, like leveling, crafting, etc. I know why same EQ 1&2 aren't popular among people like OP. Because upon reaching specific levels you realize that you need to actually play the game and not rush through it to max level asap. People say that EQ2 is way too dumbed down game like WoW, but even then it features dungeons which are all on par with pre-butchered Sunken Temple. It has different profession levels and specializations. It has various weapon/spell skills, double-tiered spells, 4 systems of tiered AAs. It has housing, guild halls, dungeon maker and tons of content outside it. EQ2 is same age as WoW and it has just so much more classes and races. AND it has raids. Oh and it doesn't abuse dances to such degree as WoW, who became just like some arcade dance-studio and all the other MMOs followed it, while pissing off CRPG fans with lol-telegraphs.

But apparently it isn't popular because people want instant gratification, instant max level and get upset when they need to get 280 AAs at lv90 in EQ2, when they need to explore world at lv80 in EQ1 and so on. WoW and post-WoW games already have ridiculously dumbed down systems of everything which isn't related to raids. What else ways to level people want? Some NPC which instantly gives them max level? I can't understand pretensions in this thread, because leveling in modern MMOs is already extremely fast and uninspired. You get experience and levels just from sneezing.

If WoW was to be released as it is today, and if it had some other company standing behind it and not all-famous Blizzard, you could be sure, this game would quickly fall into oblivion. Emphasizing on "the end" at the cost of everything else is not healthy for the game. Oh and as far as I know, raiders were always minority in WoW. And they are completely not the raiders of the age of EQ, where each death/wipe resulted in quite a long grind. There are too many wanna-be-raiders who just want to skip all the content and count themselves as "hardcore", even though getting from lv1 to max level in current MMOs is apparently too hard for them. Modern WoW-clones are already 99% uninviting for non-raiders, they keep failing one after another, because they fail to deliver actually interesting worlds with things to do outside raiding.

As I said before, people should reconsider CRPG genre for something else if even WoW's leveling is way too time-consuming for them and if getting experience from sneezing isn't enough.

[RoninaThorstone]

But apparently it isn't popular because people want instant gratification

Or maybe it isn't popular because people don't enjoy it and are there for a different form of content (like raiding).
It's a bit like going to go play golf but I am forced to play 2 hours of tennis first. I am here to golf. Not to play tennis.

[Ferocity]

Or maybe it isn't popular because people don't enjoy it and are there for a different form of content (like raiding).
It's a bit like going to go play golf but I am forced to play 2 hours of tennis first. I am here to golf. Not to play tennis.

If people don't enjoy exploration, leveling, etc. in CRPG, they are playing wrong genre. They want to turn golf into tennis, if to take your example. CRPGs =/= instant gratification. If people enjoy only raiding, they should either accept that they enjoy only the smallest part of CRPG (and stop asking to dumb down CRPG to their absurd expectations and low knowledge of the genre) or move on to other genre, like moba or fps, which require minimum time-investment. You can ask old players - why did they come to play original WoW? I am sure most of them did it not because they wanted to raid in Molten Bore.

I am not even speaking that leveling (or/and any other way of progressing character - like skill leveling in UO) is mandatory part of CRPG, meanwhile raiding is very optional (SoY, FoT, RoC, RO, UO didn't have it at all) and not required for CRPG to exist. There is nothing wrong in liking raiding, but if raiding is the only thing you like in CRPG, and you'd rather see everything else (leveling, crafting, housing, etc.) to be non-existent, then you are simply not into this genre.

[Arewn]

There is nothing wrong in adding content like raids, which are the end content, and they are there to make people keep playing after reaching level cap. That's how it works in WoW and its clones.

However it is wrong to completely neglect all the other content, like leveling, crafting, etc. I know why same EQ 1&2 aren't popular among people like OP. Because upon reaching specific levels you realize that you need to actually play the game and not rush through it to max level asap. People say that EQ2 is way too dumbed down game like WoW, but even then it features dungeons which are all on par with pre-butchered Sunken Temple. It has different profession levels and specializations. It has various weapon/spell skills, double-tiered spells, 4 systems of tiered AAs. It has housing, guild halls, dungeon maker and tons of content outside it. EQ2 is same age as WoW and it has just so much more classes and races. AND it has raids. Oh and it doesn't abuse dances to such degree as WoW, who became just like some arcade dance-studio and all the other MMOs followed it, while pissing off CRPG fans with lol-telegraphs.

But apparently it isn't popular because people want instant gratification, instant max level and get upset when they need to get 280 AAs at lv90 in EQ2, when they need to explore world at lv80 in EQ1 and so on. WoW and post-WoW games already have ridiculously dumbed down systems of everything which isn't related to raids. What else ways to level people want? Some NPC which instantly gives them max level? I can't understand pretensions in this thread, because leveling in modern MMOs is already extremely fast and uninspired. You get experience and levels just from sneezing.

If WoW was to be released as it is today, and if it had some other company standing behind it and not all-famous Blizzard, you could be sure, this game would quickly fall into oblivion. Emphasizing on "the end" at the cost of everything else is not healthy for the game. Oh and as far as I know, raiders were always minority in WoW. And they are completely not the raiders of the age of EQ, where each death/wipe resulted in quite a long grind. There are too many wanna-be-raiders who just want to skip all the content and count themselves as "hardcore", even though getting from lv1 to max level in current MMOs is apparently too hard for them. Modern WoW-clones are already 99% uninviting for non-raiders, they keep failing one after another, because they fail to deliver actually interesting worlds with things to do outside raiding.

As I said before, people should reconsider CRPG genre for something else if even WoW's leveling is way too time-consuming for them and if getting experience from sneezing isn't enough.

This is so far removed from the original discussion that I'm wondering who you're even talking to, because I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how this could possibly be a response to what I was talking about.

[derpkitteh]

why can't there be an mmo with actual jobs or something you can level with? i think star wars galaxies came close to that.

i'd like to not always be some hero or even just a soldier. i'd like to be the villager for once, or a random citizen with a life. sometimes the heroes have to save the citizens even.

[Aliessil]

More viable ways to level than quest grinding? Why can't I just join an MMO and level at the same rate as people doing quest grinding, but me grinding dungeons with a group of friends?

You can already level by:
- Questing
- AOE grinding mobs
- Gathering
- Pet battles
- PvP
- Dungeons (solo or group queue)
- Running old raids

I've probably missed some alternatives, but I've used all of those on different characters at different points in the game.

[schwarzkopf]

More viable ways to level than quest grinding? Why can't I just join an MMO and level at the same rate as people doing quest grinding, but me grinding dungeons with a group of friends?

PvP, questing, dungeons, pet battles, mining/herbalism... you can earn XP doing pretty much anything.

[Belloc]

I know I’m ranting but I’ve gotta let it out…

When will an MMORPG get players straight in to almost end-game quality combat from day 1? With a focus on dungeons and challenging mobs and zones instead of the bland as hell and repetitive questing style present in most MMORPGS?

Never, and I'm willing to bet you could've figured out why if you would've spent a few moments thinking about it.

But since you didn't... it's because the leveling process is intended to teach you how to play the game. It's not perfect, but if you level a character, you're going to have a better understanding of it than you would've if you had simply started at max level.

Tossing players into a max-level experience right away would almost certainly dissuade the majority of them from continuing to play the game. That's bad design. People don't want Dark Souls when they play an MMO.

[The Kao]

PvP, questing, dungeons, pet battles, mining/herbalism... you can earn XP doing pretty much anything.

If you ask me the problem lies somewhere else. Why play an MMORPG if you don't like having levels, going though questing content or heavy grinds? If that's not your kind of game it doesn't make sense to play one to begin with. And that's no single case - there are more and more that join games like WoW without knowing anything about them in the first place and then ask "oh why can't this game be a racer or a shooter" or whatever. Makes no sense.

[Fencers]

Why play an MMORPG if you don't like having levels, going though questing content or heavy grinds?

Not all MMORPGs are made this way. Nor does the design of an MMORPG imply those aspects as a function of their being.

All that is necessary to be an MMORPG is; large scale persistent multiplayer and any design aspect that emphasized role, Role or roll.

Levels, grind, endgame content, questing, crafting, PVE, PVP, housing, horses, etc, etc. Are just individual points of design a developer may add as they see fit. The inclusion or exclusion of is totally non relevant to being an MMORPG.