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  1. #61
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    With group loot a group that raids together week after week will be better off.
    Not necessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Unlike you I actually experience both systems.
    Nice, so I can ignore your point as you're not attacking the argument, just my experience (irrelevant).

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So don't accuse me of doing something that I obviously wasn't.
    Except you were:
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    "This is why you should raid with people you know and trust."
    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Social ties are the strongest way to keep people subbed.
    Explain why LFR and LFD have either floated subs or stemmed sub loss when they discourage social grouping. Looks a lot like people don't want it to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Ask any raiding guild if they want personal loot or regular loot and you will get a resounding, "Regular Loot!"
    Nice argument from perceived authority. What raiding guilds want isn't always the best for the game. See above.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    The system basicly goes against everything that is teamwork.
    I disagree. Having one person be in control of the loot because social rules goes against everything that is teamwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zabusasan View Post
    The problem with this is that getting the actual item someone needs is very very low.
    Not true. Personal loot is 16% chance pre-final patch, 25% post. This is identical to group loot pre-final patch and much better post.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0.5/3.5/4
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Glyphmaster Gunhaver

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Nice, so I can ignore your point as you're not attacking the argument, just my experience (irrelevant).
    Its cute that you think experience is irrelevant.



    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Explain why LFR and LFD have either floated subs or stemmed sub loss when they discourage social grouping. Looks a lot like people don't want it to me.
    Didn't say it was the only way, just the strongest. People who have strong social ties to other players (i.e. Guilds) are the least likely to stop playing. I swear there was a blizzard quote about this. If anyone can point me to where that might be at it would be great.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Nice argument from perceived authority. What raiding guilds want isn't always the best for the game. See above.
    Except the developers have show that they love guilds and raiding. Even if it may not be the best path monetarily for blizzard, we have the developers (for the most part) on our side. They tend to identify with people in raiding guilds because that is the type of people they are. So it is somewhat a position of authority.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I disagree. Having one person be in control of the loot because social rules goes against everything that is teamwork.
    Trust is a pretty big piece of teamwork....

  3. #63
    The first thing you do when joining a pug grp, is to ask for the loot rules.

    Unless loot rules are stated, according to Blizzard, the RL is free to take every single piece of gear he wants to.
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
    Holyfury armory

  4. #64
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Its cute that you think experience is irrelevant.
    Now patronising me... be aware that if you can't have a conversation with me without tainting whatever you say you may just lose the privilige of my responses.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Didn't say it was the only way, just the strongest. People who have strong social ties to other players (i.e. Guilds) are the least likely to stop playing.
    Again, I disagree. People who still have content to see that improve their character are the least likely to stop playing, it's just currently majoritatively gated behind social structures. And from the Wildstar XP:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy Gaffney
    And solo players are tragically underserved in most MMOs – something like 65% of players tend to play largely solo (Massively Single-player, as it were).
    ---Source
    It'd be best to remove the enforced social structures such that the game gets far more exposed and hence players stay subbed for longer, hence more money for Blizz, hence better game for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Except the developers have show that they love guilds and raiding. Even if it may not be the best path monetarily for Blizzard
    At least you kind of noticed who the real authority is.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Trust is a pretty big piece of teamwork....
    Trust requires teamwork, not the other way around. LFR works because it has teamwork but requires no trust. It was designed exactly like that.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0.5/3.5/4
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Glyphmaster Gunhaver

  5. #65
    Only under master looter can it be considered ninjaing, simply have them state loot rules in chat so GMs have a reference.

  6. #66
    oh, this age-old topic. allow me to explain Blizzard's "ninja" stance.

    1) Has to be on Masterloot. if a raid leader forgets to change loot to Masterlooter, and somebody rolls need and wins, it's theirs, as they did nothing wrong.
    2) Masterlooter has to state clear loot rules to the raid in-game. Stating them in vent/mumble/teamspeak/skype doesn't count. MS > OS is not a clear loot rule. "Highest rolls win" is.
    3) Masterlooter has to break their clearly stated rule in #2 in order for any actions to be taken.
    4) Blizzard will not redistribute loot for most situations. Instead, they'll most likely penalize the player, and just delete the "ninja'ed" goods.
    5) If there's no clearly stated loot rule, masterlooter can do whatever the hell they want, as that's their role. It's the raid's responsibility to ask for clearly stated loot rules in-game.

    This information is found here: https://us.battle.net/support/en/art...zzard-s-stance

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer Keile's Avatar
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    Just demand the RL states the loot rules IN GAME CHAT before the raid starts. If they say outright how rolls will be done, then have to be honored. If they ninja loot after stating these rules IN GAME then Blizzard WILL do something as it will fall under the "scam" category of the ToS.
    There is a thin line between not knowing and not caring, and I like to think that I walk that line every day.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Now patronising me... be aware that if you can't have a conversation with me without tainting whatever you say you may just lose the privilige of my responses.


    Again, I disagree. People who still have content to see that improve their character are the least likely to stop playing, it's just currently majoritatively gated behind social structures. And from the Wildstar XP:

    ---Source
    It'd be best to remove the enforced social structures such that the game gets far more exposed and hence players stay subbed for longer, hence more money for Blizz, hence better game for everyone.


    At least you kind of noticed who the real authority is.


    Trust requires teamwork, not the other way around. LFR works because it has teamwork but requires no trust. It was designed exactly like that.
    Your reasoning falls flat when you claim that Blizzard making more money by remaking social ties means a better game. Having more money in no reason means a better game, as you can see with so many modern releases. Breaking social aspects does NOT mean a better game, blizzard making more does NOT mean a better game, all it means is that Metzen can finally have his surgery to make him Thrall.

    It's clear why a company would want to break apart mechanics to the basics for more subs, that in no way means an improvement.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Again, I disagree. People who still have content to see that improve their character are the least likely to stop playing, it's just currently majoritatively gated behind social structures.
    So your version needs content that is yet undone to keep them subbed. In my version people stay subbed even if there is little for them directly to do. They stay out of loyalty and fun with the people they know, like, and trust in their guild.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    It'd be best to remove the enforced social structures such that the game gets far more exposed and hence players stay subbed for longer, hence more money for Blizz, hence better game for everyone.
    Except the people who enjoy those social structures. Hint: the developers like them too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    At least you kind of noticed who the real authority is.
    Hey as far as blizzard being a for profit company... I get that appealing to the lowest common denominator will make them the most money. But as a player I don't give a shit how much money the game makes if it turns it into a shitfest of casuals that I loath. Most players don't care if blizzard is financially successful, only if the game gives them things they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Trust requires teamwork, not the other way around. LFR works because it has teamwork but requires no trust. It was designed exactly like that.
    The "teamwork" in LFR is the most base level of teamwork. No actual interaction just 25 people doing the same thing in relative bubbles of isolation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Now patronising me... be aware that if you can't have a conversation with me without tainting whatever you say you may just lose the privilige of my responses.
    Oh no! It is very illuminating that you think your response to something is a privilege. Gave me quite a chuckle there.

  10. #70
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Your reasoning falls flat when you claim that Blizzard making more money by remaking social ties means a better game. Having more money in no reason means a better game, as you can see with so many modern releases.
    Except the modern releases aren't WoW, WoW has plenty of groundwork done that the modern releases do not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Breaking social aspects does NOT mean a better game
    Game prospered when LFR/LFD were introduced, breaking social aspects.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giscoicus View Post
    Blizzard making more does NOT mean a better game
    I'm pretty sure it does, as that's how the business works.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    So your version needs content that is yet undone to keep them subbed.
    Because that's the whole point of the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    Except the people who enjoy those social structures. Hint: the developers like them too.
    It's clear that it's at odds with making money, and I think that the people above the devs probably have a bigger say than the devs.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    But as a player I don't give a shit how much money the game makes if it turns it into a shitfest of casuals that I loath.
    Then go play something else; WoW's always been about catering to casuals.

    Quote Originally Posted by cabyio View Post
    The "teamwork" in LFR is the most base level of teamwork. No actual interaction just 25 people doing the same thing in relative bubbles of isolation.
    Disagree. Healers must interact with everyone. DPS must interact with the boss. Tanks must interact with the boss. Everyone's directly or indirectly interacting with each other. Spoils enforces group interaction and teamwork without requiring trust.

    It's like you don't even run the content.
    37 + (3*7) + (3*7)
    W/L/Death count: Wolf: 0/1/1 | Mafia: 0/5/5 | TPR: 0.5/3.5/4
    SK: 0/1/1 | VT: 1.5/3.5/5 | Cult: 1/0/1
    Glyphmaster Gunhaver

  11. #71
    It's been answered, but at the very least Blizzard is not pro-ninjas. There's several different in-game loot systems to peruse. Unless stated otherwise, if the leader decides to be a scum and master loots with no loot rules stated earlier, then you just have to suck it up.

    Not a big deal leveling up and farming dungeons early on, but it's really shitty when you go into LFD and hunters/spell users need on a STR ring/trinket. (just a simple example of a few loot slot fuckups by Blizz that still aren't fixed)
    I tend to post primarily in Recent Forum Posts from the main page.
    If I don't reply back to you in a thread, don't get overly offended as it is solely a consequence of my laziness and not out of spite.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    I'm pretty sure it does, as that's how the business works.
    A more popular game makes the business a better business but it does not necessarily make the game better. Farmville was super popular with a peak active user count of 83 million and it made shitloads of money for Zynga. Was it a good game? Hell no. If you think more money and more popularity makes a game better, you are out of your mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Because that's the whole point of the game.
    But wouldn't you say a tie is stronger if it can keep people subbed without meaningful content? Even for a little while?

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    It's clear that it's at odds with making money, and I think that the people above the devs probably have a bigger say than the devs.
    In the end yes. But if you know anything about how development works its pretty damn easy to slip your own way of doing things into the mix without the higher ups realizing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Then go play something else; WoW's always been about catering to casuals.
    Compared to EQ sure. But wow has always had heavy focus on end game raiding and until recently only a very small percent did that. Sounds like they like us more than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Disagree. Healers must interact with everyone. DPS must interact with the boss. Tanks must interact with the boss. Everyone's directly or indirectly interacting with each other. Spoils enforces group interaction and teamwork without requiring trust.

    It's like you don't even run the content.
    Is clicking on a unit frame to heal someone interaction? Sure. Is it meaningful interaction? No. I am talking about real time communication and changing of strategy on the spot. In normal and heroic you have people actually communicating with each other about what interrupts they can get, if they need help with a specific add, if we need a raid dmg reduction cooldown at a non-standard time. Actually working together, not just silently mashing buttons. As far as interacting with the boss? I am talking about between players, interacting with the boss does not count as social interaction.

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