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  1. #41
    Immortal Raiju's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Because like I said, ideally they'd be dead before getting to ranged, unless you want the shaman to run up to the bombs and possibly drop a saw in an incorrect location, and last I checked, Ele's knockback is in all directions, it's harder to aim things with. Instead, they could just drop Earthgrab+capacitor and relocate it to the bombs.
    I feel very concerned about the mental health of the elemental shamans in your raid if they can't get a correct hit on such slow targets with thunderstorm... ignoring ALL THE OTHER KNOCKBACKS AND INSTANT STUNS in your average raid group.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I feel very concerned about the mental health of the elemental shamans in your raid if they can't get a correct hit on such slow targets with thunderstorm... ignoring ALL THE OTHER KNOCKBACKS AND INSTANT STUNS in your average raid group.
    We don't have an elemental shaman, I'm the only shaman, and I'm resto/enhance. And you already said, all the other knockbacks and stuns, why use a more risky knockback when you can snare/slow/stun them much more safely? I'm not sure why you're considering thunderstorm easier and more efficient than that....
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  3. #43
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    I'm considering knockbacks more efficient than snares because they immediate resolve the problem instead of just delaying it. I can't think of raid example other than ragnaros adds (which were basically not affected by slows due to their 1000% base movement speed!) where a knockback didn't completely solve the issue in time for adds to be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I'm considering knockbacks more efficient than snares because they immediate resolve the problem instead of just delaying it. I can't think of raid example other than ragnaros adds (which were basically not affected by slows due to their 1000% base movement speed!) where a knockback didn't completely solve the issue in time for adds to be dead.
    I'm...not sure how you're seeing a knockback as an instant resolve for mines yet not a slow, sure, the mines are a bit further away, but they're still coming for you, a slow/snare gives just as much time for you to kill the adds before they get to you.
    My shaman I guess if you want to see it or something.
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    I'm considering knockbacks more efficient than snares because they immediate resolve the problem instead of just delaying it. I can't think of raid example other than ragnaros adds (which were basically not affected by slows due to their 1000% base movement speed!) where a knockback didn't completely solve the issue in time for adds to be dead.
    There are a fair few examples of fights where you have to kite rather than kill. Nefarian 2.0 and Gluth from Naxx both had adds like this. Not to mention the fact that whilst knockbacks are great, knockbacks AND slows are even better no?


  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I'm...not sure how you're seeing a knockback as an instant resolve for mines yet not a slow, sure, the mines are a bit further away, but they're still coming for you, a slow/snare gives just as much time for you to kill the adds before they get to you.
    knockback doesn't lower peoples dps, and mines have low enough health the knockback entirely resolves that issue. Especially with guilds using the single stack spot.

    @Underfetter both gluth and nefarian adds were held by tanks, making it irrelevant. If you could even slow the nefarian adds it was a terrible idea since you would just get them buffed in fire.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    knockback doesn't lower peoples dps, and mines have low enough health the knockback entirely resolves that issue. Especially with guilds using the single stack spot.

    @Underfetter both gluth and nefarian adds were held by tanks, making it irrelevant. If you could even slow the nefarian adds it was a terrible idea since you would just get them buffed in fire.
    I don't understand why a slow would lower people's DPS any more than casting a knockback would?

    Off Topic: Gluth adds were definitely kited to begin with, most often by Shaman or Hunters, and Tanks only started taking it once they progressed far past that fight. Nefarian adds I was referring to p1, not p3.


  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    I don't understand why a slow would lower people's DPS any more than casting a knockback would?
    Because slows generally require multiple people to move, not just 1/none

    Off Topic: Gluth adds were definitely kited to begin with, most often by Shaman or Hunters, and Tanks only started taking it once they progressed far past that fight. Nefarian adds I was referring to p1, not p3.
    I was tanking gluth adds since day 1
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Because slows generally require multiple people to move, not just 1/none
    Why? I don't see why this is the case. Both increase the time it takes the target to get from A to B.


  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undefetter View Post
    Why? I don't see why this is the case. Both increase the time it takes the target to get from A to B.
    Unless the mobs are still a threat about 10 seconds later then the knockback si all that required and they are outright better than slows. Simple. The only time this wasn't true that I can remember is rag hc, but slows were ineffective there as mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  11. #51
    i think this is stil difrent needs frome pvp and pve ...im pve and i miss the cata totem bar and hawe totem timer insted ....to me it feals a bit upside down that i now need/want a addon when blizz did hawe a system were i did not want/need the addon

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    knockback doesn't lower peoples dps, and mines have low enough health the knockback entirely resolves that issue. Especially with guilds using the single stack spot.
    I have not seen all 3 large bombs and the mini bombs die in a single knockback, in fact, you can't knockback all mines, you can slow all though because even if the big mine dies, you still have the small ones dropping right on the slow.

    Also, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that if you run forward to knockback the adds, there's a chance you can drop a saw in a improper location, or maybe you're kiting a laser already. Either way, Earthgrab+Relocating the totem works a lot more reliably than a knockback.
    My shaman I guess if you want to see it or something.
    My main at heart, my paladin

    I'm here to post and be witty, and I'm all out of wit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    I have not seen all 3 large bombs and the mini bombs die in a single knockback, in fact, you can't knockback all mines, you can slow all though because even if the big mine dies, you still have the small ones dropping right on the slow.

    Also, you're conveniently ignoring the fact that if you run forward to knockback the adds, there's a chance you can drop a saw in a improper location, or maybe you're kiting a laser already. Either way, Earthgrab+Relocating the totem works a lot more reliably than a knockback.
    No, I'm not ignoring it. You're pretending siegecrafter is a solo fight and that you also don't have any way to see sawblade (not that it's really relevant if its placed on the other side of the room as long as the tank has some...? Heck some tanks don't even use sawblades)
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    No, I'm not ignoring it. You're pretending siegecrafter is a solo fight and that you also don't have any way to see sawblade (not that it's really relevant if its placed on the other side of the room as long as the tank has some...? Heck some tanks don't even use sawblades)
    No, you're pretending it's a solo fight and you need to use the shaman's knockback because it is the most superior thing, that only a single knockback is needed. If it was a solo fight, then a misplaced saw wouldn't be an issue at all. Also it seems like you're talking about a different strat than I'm used to. My raid group used the one where we tanked the boss right where the bombs spawn, so melee could instantly get on it and trivialize it even more, so a single saw near bombs will screw up all of melee. Instead we had the bombs just slowed the entire time.
    My shaman I guess if you want to see it or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    You terrify me!

  15. #55
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    Yes, I'm talking about the general tactic of tanking it other side of the room and letting bombs cross the room. Stunning the bombs would be a lot more suitable than slowing bombs on the other side, though. Regardless if you're tanking on that side I doubt bombs killing people was ever an issue to you, or you wouldn't be doing it.

    That pretty much makes any arugment for earthbind redundant from the getgo.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Yes, I'm talking about the general tactic of tanking it other side of the room and letting bombs cross the room. Stunning the bombs would be a lot more suitable than slowing bombs on the other side, though. Regardless if you're tanking on that side I doubt bombs killing people was ever an issue to you, or you wouldn't be doing it.

    That pretty much makes any arugment for earthbind redundant from the getgo.
    Not really, it's one of the only slows in the game that I can think of that doesn't need a target to be applied, you can drop it preemptively before the bombs come, allowing melee to know it's coming for them before it actually targets, since it will snare and slow immediately.
    My shaman I guess if you want to see it or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    You terrify me!

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    Not really, it's one of the only slows in the game that I can think of that doesn't need a target to be applied, you can drop it preemptively before the bombs come, allowing melee to know it's coming for them before it actually targets, since it will snare and slow immediately.
    Or you can drop a frost trap that doesn't have a delay on slowing things that enter it, if you're ADAMANT on using a slow instead of readily available shadowfury (who doesn't raid without a warlock?)

    This doesn't change the fact you're choosing to do a fight non standardly is why you are arguing a largely unused totem is useful. I can also get great use out of capacitor on galakras if noone else stuns and the healers compensate teh damage taken on the npcs, but why would I do that when other people have better tools for the job that make capacitor obsolete?
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    which is kind of like saying "of COURSE you can't see the unicorns, unicorns are invisible, silly."

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raiju View Post
    Or you can drop a frost trap that doesn't have a delay on slowing things that enter it, if you're ADAMANT on using a slow instead of readily available shadowfury (who doesn't raid without a warlock?)
    We don't, and our only hunter is on the belt constantly.

    This doesn't change the fact you're choosing to do a fight non standardly is why you are arguing a largely unused totem is useful. I can also get great use out of capacitor on galakras if noone else stuns and the healers compensate teh damage taken on the npcs, but why would I do that when other people have better tools for the job that make capacitor obsolete?
    It doesn't change the fact that you're arguing "Because this class does it better, you shouldn't bother to use yours"
    Earthgrab works well for that situation, just because a hunter trap can do it doesn't mean I shouldn't use mine.
    My shaman I guess if you want to see it or something.
    My main at heart, my paladin

    I'm here to post and be witty, and I'm all out of wit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mall Security View Post
    You terrify me!

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