1. #1

    [Feral] Pretty excited (but cautious) for PVP in WoD

    We all know it's too early to tell, but I'm excited for Feral pvp in WoD. So far. We're getting some solid perks, some 'must have' glyphs and new abilities/changes that make Feral more attractive. Before going on to my concerns I want to echo some thoughts by poster Predatoria on the official US forums.

    With merging pounce & rake into one and essentially ravage, shred & mangle into one we're actually gaining a fairly powerful opener. Here it is summed up:

    • Our opener stun will now cost 35 energy rather than 50.
    • Our rake will now potentially hit harder out of pounce, meaning our openers in pvp will potentially be more deadly than they are now.
    • We no longer need to use rake in our opener, since it is applied when we stun, once again potentially making our opener more deadly with an extra shred.
    • Shred has been tuned to hit as hard as ravage from prowl or with incarnation up, yet costs 40 energy rather than 60. This means we can potentially use more abilities during incarnation before running out of energy. The same can be said for using rake with incarnation up, rather than an expensive 50 energy pounce.
    • Our first move of the opener (rake, not pounce) now has the potential to crit and yield two combo points, increasing the likelihood that we will gain 5cps before our opening stun is over.


    Concerns
    • Will this make NE too strong for shadowmeld reopeners?
    • Will this make Incarnation too strong or either too weak?
    • If our openers are strong will we have good consistent, heavy hitting bleeds the rest of the time?
    • We seem to have too strong survivability going into WoD, what with double charge SI at 70% (amongst other things) this may lead to overnerfing Feral after the first patch - something we're all too familiar with in previous expacs.
    • We've pretty much lost the ability to CC meaningfully in 'competitive' 3v3 gameplay (and RBG too). Does this mean we'll still be boring dmg bots with no other compelling gameplay aspect?
    • What will the pvp 4pc set bonus be changed to? Hopefully something related to better CC.


    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    What will the pvp 4pc set bonus be changed to? Hopefully something related to better CC.
    I don't want to lose the iconic speed 15% bonus, it's very handy one, especially on if you carry the flag
    but as we lose Revange, we need a replacement for 2 set

    for anything else, It's too early to build expectation, as we have no yet ability to TRY changes in game, while they are also still in development, plus all other classes are getting big changes too, and if something is going to be overpowered like shadowmeld abuse, noobs' whine will be strong, and nerf hammer will hit

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Gestapo
    lots of text
    Conveniently enough you left out the negative parts of the rake/pounce merge, specifically the one part where we're forced to stun our target each time we want to reapply rake during Incarnation which is a huge blow.

    But other than that I feel Feral will be in the same super-boring-pve-dmg-bot boat that we're already in, perfectly viable though (if our damage is high enough), but very boring. Also with these new defensive changes I imagine we won't get trained as much, although it may not be the case since people might still want to train us in order to stop us from harcasting cc, we'll see how it pans out I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zstr View Post
    I don't want to lose the iconic speed 15% bonus, it's very handy one, especially on if you carry the flag
    but as we lose Revange, we need a replacement for 2 set

    for anything else, It's too early to build expectation, as we have no yet ability to TRY changes in game, while they are also still in development, plus all other classes are getting big changes too, and if something is going to be overpowered like shadowmeld abuse, noobs' whine will be strong, and nerf hammer will hit
    Ravage is 4-piece bonus, what you're talking about is the 2-piece bonus, don't think they're touching that.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by ManneN View Post
    Ravage is 4-piece bonus, what you're talking about is the 2-piece bonus, don't think they're touching that.
    Yes, ravage is the 4-piece.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ManneN View Post
    Conveniently enough you left out the negative parts of the rake/pounce merge, specifically the one part where we're forced to stun our target each time we want to reapply rake during Incarnation which is a huge blow.
    Actually when it was first announced it did occur to me that we end up putting stuns on DR if we want to re-apply rake during incarnation, though I think given the plus points of these changes and the 15s window to wait out the DR it will probably be a very minor issue at best. I also hope that incarnation (hate that talent) doesn't end up being the go-to talent. I like to see the tier balanced out better so they're equal.


    Quote Originally Posted by ManneN View Post
    But other than that I feel Feral will be in the same super-boring-pve-dmg-bot boat that we're already in, perfectly viable though (if our damage is high enough), but very boring. Also with these new defensive changes I imagine we won't get trained as much, although it may not be the case since people might still want to train us in order to stop us from harcasting cc, we'll see how it pans out I guess.
    Exactly. I fear the same. I like compelling gameplay. If we're bringing good dmg and hard to kill we'll not be getting better cc, so I guess something has to give.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Yes, ravage is the 4-piece.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Actually when it was first announced it did occur to me that we end up putting stuns on DR if we want to re-apply rake during incarnation, though I think given the plus points of these changes and the 15s window to wait out the DR it will probably be a very minor issue at best. I also hope that incarnation (hate that talent) doesn't end up being the go-to talent. I like to see the tier balanced out better so they're equal.




    Exactly. I fear the same. I like compelling gameplay. If we're bringing good dmg and hard to kill we'll not be getting better cc, so I guess something has to give.

    It should be noted that the server does not reset diminishing returns after exactly 15 seconds. Instead, it checks every 5 seconds if there are any diminishing returns that should be reset because the last spell in their category was cast on the target more than 15 seconds ago. As a result, a particular diminishing return category may take anywhere between 15 and 20 seconds to reset. Most addons guess that a DR category has reset after 18 seconds by default.

    source: wowwiki

    It's a larger issue than you think, and definitely a large negative for us and even though I understand your want for other talents to be viable the truth is they probably wont be, Incarnation is the go-to talent for obvious reasons. Making it clunkier than it is currently is just boring / annoying. The fact that blizzard knows about it but doesn't give a shit is even more frustrating.

  6. #6
    Another thought re: Savage Roar.


    What if when used with a OOC proc SR gives a 5cp version of the SR buff? Too strong?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Another thought re: Savage Roar.


    What if when used with a OOC proc SR gives a 5cp version of the SR buff? Too strong?
    I assume you mean as the new 4-piece bonus? Or just as a straight up buff?

    Considering there is a talent that completely negates the effect of this I don't see it coming as a 4-piece bonus. Also since PvP Ferals will probably pick the passive SR talent seeing as freeing up combopoints and reducing ramp-up time is great (especially in the start of an expansion with low crit) I don't see this buff really affecting Feral much pvp-wise.

    Imo Ferals are in a good spot in Draenor gameplay-wise, we might need damage buffs/nerfs depending on how stuff works out, but other than that all we really need is qol-changes removing clunkiness... Such as reverting the retarded pounce/rake merge or finding a fix, for reasons previously stated.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ManneN View Post
    I assume you mean as the new 4-piece bonus? Or just as a straight up buff?

    Considering there is a talent that completely negates the effect of this I don't see it coming as a 4-piece bonus. Also since PvP Ferals will probably pick the passive SR talent seeing as freeing up combopoints and reducing ramp-up time is great (especially in the start of an expansion with low crit) I don't see this buff really affecting Feral much pvp-wise.

    Imo Ferals are in a good spot in Draenor gameplay-wise, we might need damage buffs/nerfs depending on how stuff works out, but other than that all we really need is qol-changes removing clunkiness... Such as reverting the retarded pounce/rake merge or finding a fix, for reasons previously stated.

    I meant as a straight up buff, but I can see it being a 4 piece bonus as well.

    Also, no PvP Feral will ever pick passive SR unless they're new to the spec, or not yet adept at it. Lunar Insiration (Moonfire in cat) will be so much superior to the other two talents, especially passive SR.

    LI gives Feral a range CP generator, which is huge. Not only is it great as a ranged totem stomper without leaving cat form, but it's useful as a Flag cap interrupt in RBG's, keeping people in combat in general (though we had FFF, but this will give CP's too), could possibly spam a few from range to generate CP's fast.
    Passive SR will also remove the ability to proc PS unless you're engaging a target which is a big loss for Feral, so without a doubt LI will be the go-to Feral talent for PvP.

    Feral is actually in too good a spot for WoD as it stands now. We're going in with what looks like good damage and extremely powerful survivability. What we could use is a little nerf in the DR area in exchange for some better CC options without making us one-dimensional damage bots - something we literally are right now.

    I actually don't mind them reverting pounce/rake simply because of the stun DR issue and that I have all of these keybound separately, but at this point I think they will stick with it and I'll take the dmg/energy cost buff over the latter because I like a strong opener without blowing my trinket wad.

  9. #9
    UPDATE ON NEW PVP 4P FOR FERAL

    Item - Druid WoD PvP Feral 4P Bonus (New) Shred critical strikes cause Bloodletting on the target. Bloodletting increases all bleed damage taken by 10% for 6 sec.

    Thoughts?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Didn't want to clutter with a new thread, so putting the latest Alpha Build for Feral (relevant to PVP) here, updates in green, old notes in red.

    Bear Form (Balance, Feral, Restoration) Shapeshift into Bear Form, increasing armor contribution from cloth and leather items by 120% and Stamina by 40%. by 330% and Stamina by 40%. Significantly increases threat generation, causes Agility to increase attack power, and also protects the caster from Polymorph effects and allows the use of various bear abilities. While in Bear Form, Haste reduces your global cooldown. Rage is set to 10 upon shifting into Bear Form. Increases threat generation, protects the caster from Polymorph effects, and allows the use of various bear abilities.
    Seems like we're getting that glyph made baseline? This will give bear some added utility in defense. But does this mean we don't get 10 rage on shifting into bear?

    Cat Form Shapeshift into Cat Form, causing Agility to increase attack power, increasing autoattack damage by 100%, and increasing movement speed by 25% (cumulative with most other movement speed increases and allowing the use of Cat Form abilities). Also protects the caster from Polymorph effects, allows the use of various cat abilities, and reduces damage taken from falling. Energy regeneration continues while not in Cat Form. The act of shapeshifting frees the caster of movement impairing effects. Can't be cast in Tree of Life Form, Moonkin Form. Shapeshift. 3.7% of Base Mana. Instant.
    Energy regen won't continue when outside cat? Am I reading that wrong or is it just a tooltip update? That would be terrible if true.

    Ferocious Bite now has spec specific tooltips. Now has critical strike chance doubled against bleeding targets. Now only lists Rip refresh for Feral.
    Shred tooltip updated to show 20% more dmg vs bleeding targets and 35% more dmg + double crit chance from stealth.

    Stampeding Roar The Druid roars, increasing the movement speed of all friendly players within 10 yards by 60% for 8 sec and removing all roots and snares on those targets. Does not break prowling. Using this ability outside of Bear Form or Cat Form activates Bear Form. Instant. 2 min cooldown.


    Survival Instincts Reduces all damage taken by 70% for 12 sec. Instant. 12 sec cooldown. Max 2 charges. Instant. 12 sec cooldown.



    Critical Strike Attunement (New) You gain 5% more of the Critical Strike stat from all sources. Druid - Feral Spec.

    Predatory Swiftness Your finishing moves have a 20% chance per combo point to make your next Entangling Roots, Healing Touch, Hibernate, or Rebirth become Healing Touch or Rebirth instant, free, and castable in all forms, and to increase the healing done by Healing Touch by 50%. Druid - Feral Spec.
    Wait, so no more instant Entangling Roots either?!

    Leader of the Pack While in Bear Form or Cat Form, increases critical strike chance of all party and raid members within 100 yards by 5%. Also causes your melee critical strikes to heal you for 3% of your health and energize you for 8% of your mana. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 sec. Requires Cat Form, Bear Form. Druid - Feral & Guardian Spec.
    No mana regen with Lotp! :sad:

    Might of Ursoc Increases current and maximum health by 30% for 20 sec. Activates Bear Form. Instant. 3 min cooldown. Requires Bear Form. Druid - Guardian Spec. Instant. 3 min cooldown.
    Looks like MoU is Guardian only now. Figure something had to give for defensives.

  10. #10
    I believe I will reroll from my Retri to Feral.. Again ;-)
    Waiting for final notes, though!



    And mehh.. I'd love to see my pretty armor on my druid, but in cat.. meow..
    I am a menace to my own destiny.


    just roll a warrior. instead of crying about the imbalance - be the imbalance.

  11. #11
    meow, 10chars :P
    Last edited by Vularo; 2014-06-11 at 08:37 AM.

  12. #12
    Pit Lord MrApple's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    UPDATE ON NEW PVP 4P FOR FERAL




    Thoughts?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Didn't want to clutter with a new thread, so putting the latest Alpha Build for Feral (relevant to PVP) here, updates in green, old notes in red.



    Seems like we're getting that glyph made baseline? This will give bear some added utility in defense. But does this mean we don't get 10 rage on shifting into bear?



    Energy regen won't continue when outside cat? Am I reading that wrong or is it just a tooltip update? That would be terrible if true.



    Shred tooltip updated to show 20% more dmg vs bleeding targets and 35% more dmg + double crit chance from stealth.















    Wait, so no more instant Entangling Roots either?!



    No mana regen with Lotp! :sad:



    Looks like MoU is Guardian only now. Figure something had to give for defensives.
    Seeing a few horrible changes here. Lets just hope its datamining errors. I dont want to starta feeling bad for
    maining a feral in wod just yet :/
    Epic!

  13. #13
    Seems to be a worrying theme of no resources being generated when not in that form. No range on switching to bear, no mana on lotp crits, no energy regen outside cat. I really hope these are datamining errors as you say.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by gestapo View Post
    Seems to be a worrying theme of no resources being generated when not in that form. No range on switching to bear, no mana on lotp crits, no energy regen outside cat. I really hope these are datamining errors as you say.
    Indeed. I like feral because it gives possibility of hybrid gameplay, start kitty, switch to bear... No energy regen outside cat, if confirmed, would be a huge nerf to gamestyle. After running ouf of energy it'll just be incredible boooring to wait 4 seconds to cast a shred, and 20 seconds to gain 5 more cp.
    Well let's hope in datamining error.

  15. #15
    They just took ability pruning way too far. Taking away stuff that you would keep on other form bars like lacerate or thrash/swipe in bear form or something like rake + swipe gone for boomkins in cat form is just unnecessarily. It doesn't take extra keybinds because it's typically exclusive to that stance bar and makes Hotw only useful for healing (i think). You can't get aoe threat in bear as any other spec but guardian.

    Barkskin and ursoc removal seems fine with 2 SI charges on 2min CD, but the problem is SI is putting people in bear form in Alpha. Not sure if intended. Hopefully, just because they used an old version of SI as a placeholder for now.


    Watching streamers of Alpha is just sad... most people sitting at 10-15 abilities on the bar and they aren't missing anything from the spellbook. What is the point of removing nature's grasp? Everyone has root break or dispelled instantly.
    Last edited by timmytompadderham; 2014-06-11 at 12:17 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    Barkskin and ursoc removal seems fine with 2 SI charges on 2min CD, but the problem is SI is putting people in bear form in Alpha. Not sure if intended. Hopefully, just because they used an old version of SI as a placeholder for now.
    Isn't the cd of SI 12 sec. long?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Minibubble View Post
    Isn't the cd of SI 12 sec. long?
    I think that's just the cd on charges, like you have to wait 12 seconds after Si fades after one charge before you can use the second. 12 sec cd on the ability itself would be broken.

  18. #18
    I honestly don't mind SI switching us to bear as long as we don't lose the buff by switching back out of bear. It's a small price to pay for the huge defensive buffs we're getting compared to now. Coupled with the nine lives glyph, and what seems to be very very good healing, we'll be fine for defense in WoD as things are.

    However, if they're cutting out our resource regen when not in that particular form, it's a massive nerf. I'd rather have SI switch us to bear than have them even consider such a terrible change. Really hope it's datamining errors.

    I'm also concerned about our loss of Entangling Roots under PS procs. I guess the thought is that roots are being made more potent with less cc outs and they don't want us to have instant roots let alone instant cyclone. This means I'll probably stick with my FoN build since I value the root+rake on melee.

    I also hope they make the other talents in the tier other than Incarnation as competitive.

  19. #19
    Where did you read, that SI will force us into bear form. It's not written in the changes

    Survival Instincts Reduces all damage taken by 70% for 12 sec. Instant. 12 sec cooldown. Max 2 charges. Instant. 12 sec cooldown.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Minibubble View Post
    Where did you read, that SI will force us into bear form. It's not written in the changes
    I haven't seen it in the changes either, but

    Quote Originally Posted by Dolsonthedruid View Post
    Barkskin and ursoc removal seems fine with 2 SI charges on 2min CD, but the problem is SI is putting people in bear form in Alpha. Not sure if intended. Hopefully, just because they used an old version of SI as a placeholder for now
    I'm waiting for a Feral alpha player to confirm.

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