1. #1

    Consolidate skills, strengthen openers.

    Hi everyone,

    Had an idea I thought I would share. I'm thinking this would help remove some skill-clutter on the hotbars, as well as making openers more worthwhile. Let me know what you think;

    1. Remove 'Shadow dance'
    2. Skills which require Stealth (ex; Ambush, Garrote, etc) no longer have an energy requirement
    3. Garrote & Rupture combined. Skill name; "Bleed Out". When stealthed, silences the target for 3 seconds and causes X damage (same as Rupture) over 24 seconds (up from 18). Awards 1 combo point. If not stealthed, same as rupture.
    4. Ambush & Backstab combined. Skill name; "Defenseless". When stealthed, does 600% (+200% with daggers) weapon damage + X to the target, awards 2 combo points. Must be behind target. If not stealthed, same as Backstab. No longer requires daggers (+150% weapon dmg with daggers).
    5. Cheap Shot & Kidney Shot combined. Skill name; "Blackjack". When stealthed, stuns the target for 6 seconds (up from 4). If not stealthed, same as Kidney Shot. Cooldown removed. Energy cost for non-stealthed Blackjack increased to 35 (up from 25)
    6. Sap & Blind combined. Skill name; "Stupify". When stealthed, the same as Sap. When not stealthed, the same as Blind. Affected targets are no longer mutually exclusive (translation: Rogues can now incapacitate two targets at once.)
    7. Shadowwalk reworked; Now usable while not in stealth. While in stealth, increases Stealth effectiveness and provides immunity to AoE attacks/effects for 10 seconds. While not in stealth, the rogue is not targettable by ranged attacks for 6 seconds. Cooldown is now 45 seconds (down from 60).

    Extra changes:
    Some of you have pointed out that certain traits would need to be altered to preserve the balance. I agree, I was just lazy about not concept-crafting them before. I have added them below.

    8. Subterfuge Reworked. New version; You remain invisible for 4 seconds after receiving or dealing damage. Stealth skills are disabled upon dealing damage.
    9. Shadow Focus Reworked. New version; Abilities cost 50% less energy for 3 seconds after breaking stealth.
    10. Shadowstep Reworked. Is now a ground target skill.


    Why did I write this? Well, the belief is that openers are in a "weak state" due to the presence of Shadow Dance. Shadow Dance is just another steroid with clunky mechanics, resulting in confusion on the hotbars and the perpetual-neutering of opening skills. Simply put, Blizz doesn't want us to be able to spam strong openers from Shadow Dance. That's why I say it should be removed, and the power put back into the openers as it should be. With the only way to get access to those Openers being to blow Vanish - they should be a lot stronger as a result.

    So I made them stronger. I'll leave it to veteran rogue players to tell me if they are now "strong enough" or if the changes were just a drop in the bucket. I found it a bit ridiculous how little the power-differential was between Ambush and Backstab, considering the more extreme requirements for Ambush. I also found it a bit disappointing that they were removing the position-requirement on Ambush in WoD. Kind of takes the fun out of it - but is understandable considering the ease of which a rogues stealth can be broken (hence the changes to Shadowwalk). Furthermore, the changes to Shadowwalk should keep Rogues on par or slightly better than Camo for Hunters (which should be a given since we are the Stealth class, afterall).

    I also think that with the removal of Shadowdance, that the openers shouldn't have a cost. This obviously has an impact on talents like Shadow Focus, but I don't want to touch on that now. It's a rarely used talent anyways.

    Lastly, I wanted to consolidate some of the skills on the hotbar, since they are similar. Why do we need to have two different skills when we can just have 1 skill with a separate effect while in stealth? This is more of a big deal with the Shadow-dance hotbar of course, but whats good for the goose is good for the gander. I've consolidated like-effects on the stealth-requirement skills as a result. In order to bring back some of the importance to Rogues that was lost when multiple classes started getting their own 'Saps' - I made ours uniquely better. We can sap up to two targets with my version.

    So, I know these sound radical and scary - but other than that. Thoughts? Most importantly, does this fix the issues I'm trying to address?

    Thanks!
    -LC
    Last edited by SamuraiJakkass86; 2014-06-11 at 09:35 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiJakkass86 View Post
    Simply put, Blizz doesn't want us to be able to spam strong openers from Shadow Dance.
    That's why they buffing ambushes under SD? 33% redused energy cost - this is +50% number of ambushes during SD.

  3. #3
    Exactly, they want quantity over quality. Openers are not supposed to be about "how many of these can you spam when shadow dance is available". They have no problem with us spamming Ambush, because its barely any better than Backstab. They balance our openers around the fact that shadow dance exists - and as a result we get weak openers and the enforced meta of "use shadow dance if you want this opener to be worthwhile". See the problem now?

  4. #4
    OT: I agree with your merging of ambush/backstab. But cheap/kidney and garrote/rupture have different resource requirements. Kidney feels important because you save combos for it, and it's 6 seconds. Rupture serves more of a important role in pve, for the importance of depth in not just using envenom mindlessly as mut, and similarly for sub. I could see merit in no energy in stealth/subterfuge but that makes subterfuge OP and mandatory compared to other talents. Would be hard to make
    Others worth it because you want to open with a cheap anyhow, so increasing damage of your opener even more with other talents won't fix it.

    The reason openers feel weak belongs to many things. My opinion is classes ability to get out of the opener is the main culprit.
    Many classes having ways to deal with openers on shorter CDs while stunned. 1-2 minutes CDs that may give you troublé finding good openers 1v1.
    dk's IBF, (longer cd)
    monk's NB, (long cd)
    hunter flare/camo combo
    Mage blink(forces you to garrote over cheap)
    Lock horror on hit, optional talent and have other CDs but this is a short one
    Druid bark skin

    Spriest has no small cd
    Shamans- only ele thunderstorm
    Rogues none
    Warriors none
    Ret none

    Next time you go out Bging, etc notice the ones listed with none you most likely rip apart in openers. If I open with blades for instance, they might not make it outa my stuns with more then 15%hp. And even without blades they'll get out with 25-30% without you using CDs.
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  5. #5
    I don't mind a lot of these changes actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiJakkass86 View Post
    7. Shadowwalk reworked; Now usable while not in stealth. While in stealth, increases Stealth effectiveness and provides immunity to AoE attacks/effects for 10 seconds. While not in stealth, the rogue is not targettable by ranged attacks for 6 seconds. Cooldown is now 45 seconds (down from 60).
    That would be nice. Maybe a freaking animation too!
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by lifteez View Post
    OT: I agree with your merging of ambush/backstab. But cheap/kidney and garrote/rupture have different resource requirements. Kidney feels important because you save combos for it, and it's 6 seconds. Rupture serves more of a important role in pve, for the importance of depth in not just using envenom mindlessly as mut, and similarly for sub. I could see merit in no energy in stealth/subterfuge but that makes subterfuge OP and mandatory compared to other talents. Would be hard to make
    Others worth it because you want to open with a cheap anyhow, so increasing damage of your opener even more with other talents won't fix it.
    I think it would be okay to sacrifice the effects of some talents (such as subterfuge) for the sake of bringing back glory to the stealth openers. Those things can be tweaked-reworked if need be, and if you want ideas for how I would do it I'll just append them to my original post if you desire. Ultimately I think talents and skills like Shadowdance and Subterfuge have worked against the Rogue, turning us from a strategic bursting class into a "how can we make that guy with daggers do consistent DPS in a raid setting?" class.

  7. #7
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Putting sap and blind together would have pvp problems but still... Can't deny most of the changes you made are actually useful. but if you keep subterfuge you need to keep CP spenders separated from the generators, for example, if you are at like 4cp and then vanish > garrote the target, you'll be at 5 with stealth skills toggled "on", so you can't kidney because you'll cheap shot instead...
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  8. #8
    @OP, i agree with what you want to do with the class, I'm satisfied I guess currently, but it would be nice to to see that style change. I would keep polishing what you would like to do with it! But I don't think the button bloat situation you brought in to consideration is beneficial to our depth
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    That would be nice. Maybe a freaking animation too!
    Now here, don't get greedy. We already have a little puff on smoke on it!
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  10. #10
    Ok, I've added a section for modified talents. I also added a personal request for a change to Shadowstep (it could actually compete with Cloak & Dagger this way).

    Thanks for the feedback so far everyone! I'm very happy with how civil this encounter has been

  11. #11
    Enjoying the shadow step concept! Question, would you make ambush do significantly more dmg to justify using it as a opener over cheap shot in any situation? Especially as a 6 second stun. With your suggested changes, does this mean you may only use one owner with subterfuge? It would be interesting to go back to that style rogue again. With current meta would need ambush to garuntee ludacris, or else kidney would always win out. Just food for thought keep it up.

    Disagreeing with the shadow walk out of stealth ability. We have cloak and evasion already, ud hear screams of 'op' come out through your screen. :P
    Last edited by lifteez; 2014-06-11 at 10:30 PM.
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by lifteez View Post
    Enjoying the shadow step concept! Question, would you make ambush do significantly more dmg to justify using it as a opener over cheap shot in any situation? Especially as a 6 second stun. With your suggested changes, does this mean you may only use one owner with subterfuge? It would be interesting to go back to that style rogue again. With current meta would need ambush to garuntee ludacris, or else kidney would always win out. Just food for thought keep it up.

    Disagreeing with the shadow walk out of stealth ability. We have cloak and evasion already, ud hear screams of 'op' come out through your screen. :P
    I understand what you're saying about shadow walk. My point was mainly to make something that can compete in functionality to the Hunter's camo. If it is felt that hunter camo should continue having better functionality in addition to the hunter being a direct counter to Rogue - than I would revoke that change. At least the part that lets you be temporarily untargettable by ranged attacks. Where the Hunter can directly retaliate against individuals attempting to pelt them from a range, Rogue does not necessarily have a defense and are easily snared/killed by folks at a range. With Shadowstep being "optional" in even the Sub rogues builds, there is both a lack of gap closer as well as ranged defense.

    As far as Ambush doing more damage - yes the intent was to make it compete with my enhanced version of cheap shot when damage was the priority. Cheap shot has always existed in a precarious placement. That is to say that if in a 1v1 situation, you were more likely to take cheap shot instead of ambush - ambush is not good enough. Cheap shot, imho - should be for situations where you can overwhelm an enemy if you can keep them still for a few seconds (such as in a group scenario). There should of course, still be situations even in 1v1 where you'll want to lock the opponent down instead of ambush them, but there should be less of those as a result of buffing Ambush.

    Also to clarify; yes you would only be able to use a single opener with the new Subterfuge. The emphasis on Subterfuge with my proposed changes is to give you a few seconds of anonymity after taking or dealing damage. You still have a few seconds after taking damage to try to land that opener, or you get a few seconds of spooky ghost-damage after dealing an initial attack (possibly lining up a backstab or two in the process). Basically you won't get to use more than 1 ambush unless you Vanish to go back into stealth. You may even consider doing that now that Ambush is noticeably stronger and Shadow Dance is gone.

  13. #13
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    Okay. Here's my take on it.

    Now you're missing one thing about Shadow Dance: namely Find Weakness. Now this thing has gone through loads of changes over the years, but it wasn't until cata it started to show complications.

    It made our damaging openers too strong. Ignoring armor plus the crit modifiers to Ambush back in cata, made everyone and their mother cry about rogues, and thus we got nerfed.

    Now with the old talents gone, it would be good to shift the damages around, instead of flat out removing ShD. Because that, imo, would dumb down sub spec (managing ShD and FW is a minigame in itself).

    One solution would be to nerf FW from 100/50 down to 50/25 and shift 60% of the lost damage into openers and rest into BS/Rupture/Evis.

    Or leave FW intact but remove the attack speed bonus from Slice and Dice and shift that damage (would emphasize active abilities more).

    As for the consolidations. Only the ambush/backstab one makes really sense.
    The others you've combined don't really. Like Garrote/Rupture. One is a cp generator, other spender. Creates too much confusion.
    Sap/Blind might work, but the wording might get tricky to get to be understandable for a new rogue.

    Cheap/Kidney Shot I don't sadly see happening, since Blizz wants to reduce CC.

    The talent stuff is okay though I really like the ShS idea!
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoofer View Post
    Okay. Here's my take on it.

    Now you're missing one thing about Shadow Dance: namely Find Weakness. Now this thing has gone through loads of changes over the years, but it wasn't until cata it started to show complications.

    It made our damaging openers too strong. Ignoring armor plus the crit modifiers to Ambush back in cata, made everyone and their mother cry about rogues, and thus we got nerfed.
    I disagree. First and foremost, ShD allowed you to keep Find Weakness up on an enemy for for 8 seconds due to continual application of the debuff while ShD is active. With ShD gone, this no longer needs to be "compensated for" with lower opener damage. (it lasts for 10 seconds with the WoD perk too). To put it simply, ShD and Find Weakness synergy is a non-issue with my proposed changes. You will not be chaining multiple Ambush's on a target because ShD is gone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hoofer View Post
    Now with the old talents gone, it would be good to shift the damages around, instead of flat out removing ShD. Because that, imo, would dumb down sub spec (managing ShD and FW is a minigame in itself).

    One solution would be to nerf FW from 100/50 down to 50/25 and shift 60% of the lost damage into openers and rest into BS/Rupture/Evis.

    Or leave FW intact but remove the attack speed bonus from Slice and Dice and shift that damage (would emphasize active abilities more).
    Again, disagree. You're advocating that we keep ShD which allows for the usage of stealth-only abilities while not being stealthed. This is dumbing down Sub more than anything else currently. Because of the existence of ShD, openers have been nerfed and put into a position where they are not in themselves a class mechanic anymore. Stealth openers should be a top priority in sub, and not because you have a steroid that lets you ignore skills rules (which is all ShD is. Just another way to mindlessly mash a single button for an extended period). More depth will be brought back to sub if it is removed - as it will allow focusing (not just for sub either) on openers again, which is the unique flavor of the stealth archetype.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoofer View Post
    As for the consolidations. Only the ambush/backstab one makes really sense.
    The others you've combined don't really. Like Garrote/Rupture. One is a cp generator, other spender. Creates too much confusion.
    Sap/Blind might work, but the wording might get tricky to get to be understandable for a new rogue.

    Cheap/Kidney Shot I don't sadly see happening, since Blizz wants to reduce CC.

    The talent stuff is okay though I really like the ShS idea!
    I think Garrote/Rupture makes sense. They are like effects, which can't be used at the same time anyways (either you aren't stealthed and garrote is unavailable, or you are stealthed and garrote is the better choice since I normalized the damage between the two). For anyone NOT using Ambush, the changes I made to Garrote allow for "double effect". The DoT from Garrote stacks with the Dot from Rupture and are similar in damage; which benefits those trying to stack dots in combat if they choose to do that rather than direct damage (Ambush to me has always been more of a "prey on the weak" skill for pvp. That's my personal opinion though; Rupture was always better for raid DPS). Because of this, the skills are now similar enough to where they can be on one button.

    I don't think Cheap Shot/Kidney Shot are going away, even with Blizz removing many CC skills. It makes sense to remove a lot of CC from the other classes, but CC was originally the rogues thing. As of now Blizzard does not seem to advocate the idea of removing ShD, which means they've already gutted the fact that Rogue is primarily a stealth class. I don't think they would turn that chest-knife even more and say "no stealth, no cc. just mash a rotation or gtfo."

    Thanks for the feedback!
    -LC

  15. #15
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    How strong do you want your openers to be, like seriously? People are already forced to pop a ton of CDs in rogue openers in 3v3. You already get people down to 50-60% hp 1v1 in one opener if not lower. When will you be happy? When they add a glyph that reduces the cooldown of vanish by 60 seconds but removed the guaranteed stealth after vanish? Or when your vanish's cooldown is already reduced by 30 seconds when you play subtlety making vanish a 30 second CD ability combined with the glyph?

    Rogue openers are fine and stupid currently with Subterfuge being it the way it is. I'm glad they're changing the talent to not have the rogue stealthed for 3 seconds after stealth breaks because majority of the time they would get a guaranteed restealth anyways.

  16. #16
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    I personally think that they should take this stupid damage out of openers and make the damn spec useful the entire time... Or keep sub the stealth "sniping" guy and give us another viable pvp spec...
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiJakkass86 View Post
    I disagree. First and foremost, ShD allowed you to keep Find Weakness up on an enemy for for 8 seconds due to continual application of the debuff while ShD is active. With ShD gone, this no longer needs to be "compensated for" with lower opener damage. (it lasts for 10 seconds with the WoD perk too). To put it simply, ShD and Find Weakness synergy is a non-issue with my proposed changes. You will not be chaining multiple Ambush's on a target because ShD is gone.
    Actually no, it's 14-16 second duration on FW when using ShD (atleast in PvE, where you try to use Ambush/Garrote in the end to refresh FW a final time). With removal on ShD, you'd have to buff sub damage across the board (because Blizz wouldn't only buff the openers in this case, to prevent outcries from the PvP community, especially with subterfuge around).

    Now on a 6-minute fight tank'n'spank, you have an approximate 110-120 second uptime on FW (proper usage of opening from stealth, Vanish, Prep and ShD). Remove ShD, and that uptime drops down to 40 seconds. And losing 80 seconds of ignoring armor is a big deal for sub, since 95% of the abilities are physical (not only openers).

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiJakkass86 View Post
    Again, disagree. You're advocating that we keep ShD which allows for the usage of stealth-only abilities while not being stealthed. This is dumbing down Sub more than anything else currently. Because of the existence of ShD, openers have been nerfed and put into a position where they are not in themselves a class mechanic anymore. Stealth openers should be a top priority in sub, and not because you have a steroid that lets you ignore skills rules (which is all ShD is. Just another way to mindlessly mash a single button for an extended period). More depth will be brought back to sub if it is removed - as it will allow focusing (not just for sub either) on openers again, which is the unique flavor of the stealth archetype.
    If your opinion is that ShD is dumbing down sub spec only because 'it allows the usage of stealth-abilities while unstealthed', I honestly don't know what to say.
    ShD is subs only DPS CD (apart from Shadow Blades, which gets removed in WoD anyway), adds gameplay depth with FW management (coupled with Vanish) and due to it having "only" a 1-minute cool, it also makes for an excellent on-demand burst CD as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SamuraiJakkass86 View Post
    I think Garrote/Rupture makes sense. They are like effects, which can't be used at the same time anyways (either you aren't stealthed and garrote is unavailable, or you are stealthed and garrote is the better choice since I normalized the damage between the two). For anyone NOT using Ambush, the changes I made to Garrote allow for "double effect". The DoT from Garrote stacks with the Dot from Rupture and are similar in damage; which benefits those trying to stack dots in combat if they choose to do that rather than direct damage (Ambush to me has always been more of a "prey on the weak" skill for pvp. That's my personal opinion though; Rupture was always better for raid DPS). Because of this, the skills are now similar enough to where they can be on one button.

    I don't think Cheap Shot/Kidney Shot are going away, even with Blizz removing many CC skills. It makes sense to remove a lot of CC from the other classes, but CC was originally the rogues thing. As of now Blizzard does not seem to advocate the idea of removing ShD, which means they've already gutted the fact that Rogue is primarily a stealth class. I don't think they would turn that chest-knife even more and say "no stealth, no cc. just mash a rotation or gtfo."

    Thanks for the feedback!
    -LC
    What I mean with Garrote/Rupture is that is creates too much confusion for the different effects the bring (for new rogues especially). Garrote silencing, adds a combopoint, and fixed damage bleed. Rupture costs CPs, bleed damage variates with CP amount used.
    If Rupture would add combo points and having fixed damage, the consolidation would make more sense.

    Now for the Cheap/Kidney Shot: What I meant with them not consolidating them is that it would make an OP CC, with the possiblity of making it a 9 second stun, with almost no downside (could go to 10-11 seconds, with using Vanish). You can in theory do that now as a rogue aswell, but only to max 9 seconds and not without sacrificing ShD/Vanish to do so. (Cheap -> Kidney -> Vanish/ShD -> Cheap).


    I know people would like to have strong openers, but with the advantage that stealth/vanish brings in itself, it just won't happen anymore. Only because it would create, ironically enough, problems in PvP. And with Vanish already getting buffed in WoD through a perk for sub and glyph for Assa/combat, I see even less reason to buff the openers.

    And openers have pretty much meant nothing for Combat since WotLK and nothing for Assassination since MoP pre-patch.
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  18. #18
    ShD is a button press "damage cooldown" that just says; "remember that thing you couldn't do before? Now you can do it for a little bit". Just because you add an extra button to subvert core mechanics of the class does not mean it adds "more depth". Stealth skills lack depth due to them being adjusted for use when not even in stealth. Take away the ShD cooldown that resulted in the homogenization of damage to what were once fun-to-use opener skills, and they can be adjusted back to the point where playing the stealth-spec of the stealth-class actually feels like you're playing a stealth class. Right now it's just "fight like a hunter but up close", or worse, "fight like a cat druid, just spam skills in a certain rotation until the fight is over".

    Again, ShD removes the depth of the stealth-based playstyle on the class that should have the most to say about stealth-based playstyles.

  19. #19
    Openerdamage was meaning less in PvE even before ShD, but now they proc a mechanic at least and are usable on a recurring basis. ShD is fun.
    And removing depth is something else then "making it usable" or "lowering damage" (which is not true anyway)
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