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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    There is no reason to test CW right now; at level 100, it's 17k per tick and you get at most 3 ticks/30 seconds plus a GCD and mana cost. Ysera's Gift is 9k per tick and you get a tick every 5 seconds.
    Let's just hope that they fix CW and the whatever it is called talent, instead of nerfing Ysera's Gift. Depending on how long we stay below MaxHP, it's just a small, free amount of selfhealing anyway.

    I don't see how they can nerf it without making it useless. The better approach is to add something to Germination that makes it an actual throughput increase like maybe making Rejuv be 18 secs instead of 15 secs with that talent on top of being able to have 2 per target.
    I'd never expected to agree completely with something you write, but here we are. Exactly my thoughts. My suggestion for germination would be, to have it reduce reju GCD, i.e. reintroduce swift rejuvenation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skagasm View Post
    I know Germination looks bad as a raw throughput increase in a raiding environment, but I think it has more potential then you guys are giving it credit for, especially for as long as Rejuv remains our sexiest spam-able heal. Anytime there's focused damage you're essentially able to replace a Swiftmend/Regrowth with a Rejuv on that target once every 11-19 secs (which is basically worth a free Rejuv every time you're able to do that).
    It's at best a break even. The Regrowth will be free, the SM provides you with a reju worth of healing by itself and a 100% increase to the reju following [via SotF].

    It may be difficult for that to beat 2-3 free spells every ~25 secs, but it's not impossible and Germination will also be significantly more flexible than Moment of Clarity. Right now, it seems like it'd be optimal for dealing with mechanics like Protector's Garrote, Dark Shaman's Toxic Mists, Nazgrim's Bonecracker/Snipers, and Paragon's Parasites/Fiery Edges.
    Aren't all of those mechanics something unlikely in the WoD heal environment? Right now I'd fully expect (by blizzards description) to be able to spotheal either of those mechanics with HT, thus also regrowth, which you can turn free via MoC/OoC, and heals for more than a reju (with LS, rightly so because otherwise you'd really never bother to cast it)

    Anytime you can tell where the raid damage is going to be focused it becomes immediately competitive -- and even without those mechanics there will always be tanks. Hell, just having 2 tanks taking damage simultaneously within range of you might be enough to consider it over Moment of Clarity.
    Even if MoC just affected regrowth, the fact that regrowth has a higher HPET [and will have unless you want it removed from our bars in favor of reju entirely] leads to MoC being superior - unless you turn MoC into a bad iteration of OoC. The whole matter at hand is: If you have time for two rejuvenations to tick, you're likely to have enough time to wait for the next MoC proc to use 2x regrowth instead.

    Also, there's really endless room to tune Moment of Clarity if they're willing to adjust the mana reduction from 100% down to something as minor as 90%. I'm sure they'd like to avoid having to do that since it would likely make it feel more complicated psychologically and mechanically, but it's certainly a conceivable option.
    You'd need to go as low as 40% to make that work out [at 5s duration, for lower duration see tiberrias argument]. Honestly, if the only way to not have a talent outperform the other options is to nerf it into being useless, either the underlying mechanic is broken by desin - or, as the two other options are discussed to be either restrictive or simply bad, you actually have two bad talents paired with a good one, and thus go ahead and just buff the bad options.

    Just to add one more thing as to why germination is bad [by looking at the considered to be bad and in line for buffs option Rampant Growth: If they buff it, it basically provides the same targeted troughput increase germination gives (via SotF) AND an additional troughput increase (via SM) at a to be determined efficiency (depends on what buff they choose to account for the heavy target restriction it has - e.g. a mana cost reduction to SM would outright destroy germination)

  2. #142
    High Overlord daerellin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumboy View Post
    Have you done Burial grounds? I seriously was boggled at how bad the healing was if everyone in the group took damage in like a pulse or even just standing in things. Maybe people just have to be re-trained to avoid puddles more, because at that ilvl (600) heals were not enough to keep up with the aoe damage.
    My experience was about the same as yours. With non-stop casting and as many HoTs as possible on my entire group, using Tranq and ToL, the pink-ish guys that do that AoE pulse decimated us repeatedly. Granted it's entirely possible that no one was using their defensives when necessary, lfd being lfd, but still.. it felt like I didn't have the necessary throughput in the scaled down pre-made gear.

    I could also just be completely and utterly bad without being able to use all my addons as a crutch :/

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by daerellin View Post
    My experience was about the same as yours. With non-stop casting and as many HoTs as possible on my entire group, using Tranq and ToL, the pink-ish guys that do that AoE pulse decimated us repeatedly. Granted it's entirely possible that no one was using their defensives when necessary, lfd being lfd, but still.. it felt like I didn't have the necessary throughput in the scaled down pre-made gear.

    I could also just be completely and utterly bad without being able to use all my addons as a crutch :/
    The pink-ish guys can be interrupted / stunned and don't do any damage with a good tank. First and last boss however put out a lot of damage (the last boss is probably way overtuned).

    IMO at the current state of the beta, they completely failed with that "slowly heal people up". It's just as "heal everyone up ASAP" as on live, because the next pulse / spike can kill anyone who is not at 100% HP. Not that I'm surprised, I still doubt that is even possible, but it's not even close in those dungeons. However, since mana is not very tight (and the fights not too long), I can usually get away with spamming WG and Rj on the group, and can also use Rg pretty freely on the tank.

  4. #144
    Following was posted by Celestalon in the Beta Feedback Thread:
    In particular, we're concerned that Wild Growth is too much throughput, since it can be made free with Omen of Clarity, making AoE healing feel too reliant on OoC.
    Well, if they think that this is the problem with WG, so be it. I'll just replace WG with another rejuvenation instead or return to mindlessly spam WG on CD [no troughput -> efficient].

  5. #145
    The problem is probably more Omen of Clarity/Moment of Clarity than it is Wild Growth. Having a spell that costs 55% of base mana (more expensive than any other healing spell currently) is fine, because it gives you the choice of whether and how often to use it on cooldown. When you do decide to use it, the HPM is pretty reasonable. The problem is, allowing the mana cost of that spell to be completely removed by a proc is probably too strong. The other problem is the fact that no other healers really have that model. Other similar AoE heals like PoH, CoH, CH, Holy Radiance, Uplift, etc are about 1/4 (give or take) of the throughput of Wild Growth, but also 1/4 of the mana cost.

    They probably are going to have to either cut the WG mana cost and throughput by 75%, or they are going to have to give a similar treatment to things like CoH, Uplift, etc, where they are a lot more expensive but a lot more output. They could also try exempting Wild Growth from OOC procs completely, and eliminate any way around paying that 55% of base mana to use it.

  6. #146
    Item - Druid T17 Restoration 2P Bonus - Nature's Swiftness now works on the next 4 spell casts.
    Item - Druid T17 Restoration 4P Bonus - When you cast 3 sequential Healing Touch spells, you gain Nature's Wisdom. Nature's Wisdom increases your spirit 75% for 10 sec.
    That just reads like they found mana regen to be to low fo raids, and thus have our setboni take care of it....

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by stormgust View Post
    That just reads like they found mana regen to be to low fo raids, and thus have our setboni take care of it....
    The 2 piece sounds borderline overpowered, but it could also be a way to make us actually want to cast Regrowth (although HT would still be better). The 4 piece sounds like they are really trying to reinforce the idea of - spam your single target direct heal when you are OOM/trying to regain mana.

    They also buffed Cenarion Ward by 300% in this build. I guess the fact they are buffing CW instead of nerfing YG is a good thing, but YG is over the top overpowered at level 100 right now.

    Edit - disregard that; they just changed the tooltip to say 879.9% over 6 seconds instead of 293% every 2 seconds for 6 seconds.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here are the updated secondary stat values at level 100.

    Haste - 95 haste rating = 1% haste (including the 5% haste attunement)
    Mastery - 88 mastery rating = 1% mastery
    Crit - 110 crit rating = 1% crit
    Multistrike - 66 multistrike rating = 1% multistrike
    Versatility - 131 versatility rating = 1% versatility

    How I suspect our stat priority will lie is is

    Spirit > Mastery > Haste = Multistrike > Crit > Versatility

    Spirit is something like 7 times more valuable than it is on live, so as long as we are mana limited at all, it will be the best secondary stat and wanted on all available slots. In the simplest terms, 1% mastery, 1% Crit and 1% haste are all worth 1% additional throughput, and 1% Multistrike is 0.6% additional throughput (2 chances x 30% of the initial heal).

    Mastery remains the most valuable by a pretty wide margin, because it has the cheapest itemization cost, and because unlike haste, it increases both HPS and HPM on all sources. Haste and multistrike are close. It works out to somewhere around 106 Multistrike rating to add 1% more throughput, compared to 95 haste rating. However, haste also requires more mana expenditure to net the throughput gains on non HoT sources. How tight mana is will tilt the balance between those two stats, but the look close to equal to me.

    Crit will remain less desirable than Mastery or Multistrike, because of its more expensive itemization cost. Living Seed doesn't increase the value of Crit by enough to offset it being 20%+ more expensive. Versatility will be the weakest stat, because it is the most expensive stat (due to the damage taken component heavily taxing the cost of the throughput increase component).

  8. #148
    Tiberria Glad to see you switch main like I did. Well I asume you will...

    I would like to know what is this new secondery stat called versatility. I try a do a little bit a research but find nothing! Can you explain to me plz?

  9. #149
    Is it just me or is the T17 2 set grossly strong? Nature's Swiftness making your next 4 cast time spells instant and free. Works well with the 4 set in proccing a mini-innervate.

  10. #150
    4 HT under Nature's Swiftness + proc from 4 pieces looks very nice

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Vachequirie View Post
    Tiberria Glad to see you switch main like I did. Well I asume you will...

    I would like to know what is this new secondery stat called versatility. I try a do a little bit a research but find nothing! Can you explain to me plz?
    All that it does is 1% Versatility increases damage done, healing done and absorbs by 1% and reduces damage taken by 0.5%. The stat is very weak relative to other secondaries, because it takes 131 Versatility rating to get a 1% healing done increase, whereas adding 1% mastery (which costs 88 mastery rating) also adds 1% healing done.

  12. #152
    Thank you tiberria for the ├ęclaircissement! indead the stat lokk weaker then mastery since prety much all our healing come from dots and the number needed to get 1%.

    Is bleu gear and purple gear always come with two seconderay stat now since only a few piece can have spirit?

  13. #153
    Are set bonuses disabled in arena? (pve ones).

    I never tried with my t16 because it would suck, but if they works oh my that regrowth bombing....

  14. #154
    Item - Druid T17 Restoration 4P Bonus When you cast 3 sequential Healing Touch spells the mana cost of your next Wild Growth is reduced by 75%.
    Well, there we go. Instead of just letting us find out on our own, that RJ/LB/3xHT/SM/WG will be the optimal rotation, they actually tell us that it is exactly that.
    Also, that bonus seems to be inconsistent with what Celestalon said about OoC affecting WG...

  15. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by stormgust View Post
    Well, there we go. Instead of just letting us find out on our own, that RJ/LB/3xHT/SM/WG will be the optimal rotation, they actually tell us that it is exactly that.
    Also, that bonus seems to be inconsistent with what Celestalon said about OoC affecting WG...
    What he said was that they were concerned that AoE healing was too dependent on WG and WG felt too dependent on OOC procs. This set bonus lets us take that dependence into our own hands and force the mana cost reduction instead of having to wait for an OOC proc or eat the mana cost and then want to punch our monitors when one happens 1 second later.

    Swiftmend is not going to be part of our optimal rotation
    1. It's dog shit in terms of HPM and less HPET than Rejuv; the only reason we cast it on near cooldown on live is SoTF and Harmony refresh.
    2. SoTF is likely going to be inferior to Incarnation with Blooming glyphed.
    3. If we are casting HT as much as we appear to be moving towards, we won't need Swiftmend to refresh Harmony

    Swiftmend will probably be a last resort button that is only used when you absolutely need that immediate instant cast while moving.

  16. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiberria View Post
    What he said was that they were concerned that AoE healing was too dependent on WG and WG felt too dependent on OOC procs. This set bonus lets us take that dependence into our own hands and force the mana cost reduction instead of having to wait for an OOC proc or eat the mana cost and then want to punch our monitors when one happens 1 second later.
    And being forced in three sequential HT's (by the sound of it, other spells in between cancel the sequence) is better than waiting for a random proc? You're either relying on 2T17 for this (guaranted once per minutes, or every 48s with HT glyph) or on encounter design allowing for repeatedly chaining that big heal (those are going to be some fun encounters to heal I'd expect ...)


    Swiftmend is not going to be part of our optimal rotation
    1. It's dog shit in terms of HPM and less HPET than Rejuv; the only reason we cast it on near cooldown on live is SoTF and Harmony refresh.
    You really shouldn't take swiftmends HPM by it's own, but rather adjusted for the HPM gain it contributes to WG via SotF.
    As for HPET, well isn't that an entirely useless metric once you have to cast HT more than once?

    2. SoTF is likely going to be inferior to Incarnation with Blooming glyphed.
    You're all assuming 100% efficiency from ToL here. Isn't that like asking most of the other healers to not do their job for those 30s (maybe an occasional support on the tank or group)? Yah for this awesome 4 rdruid mythic healer team, where one of them will use ToL, 2 x support him via LB/WG, and the last one get's to use HotW.

    3. If we are casting HT as much as we appear to be moving towards, we won't need Swiftmend to refresh Harmony
    Well yeah. But that's about it.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by stormgust View Post

    You're all assuming 100% efficiency from ToL here. Isn't that like asking most of the other healers to not do their job for those 30s (maybe an occasional support on the tank or group)? Yah for this awesome 4 rdruid mythic healer team, where one of them will use ToL, 2 x support him via LB/WG, and the last one get's to use HotW.


    .
    You have to remember that the overheal model in WoD is nothing like it is on live - targets will be sub 100% HP and that spamming the Lifebloom HoT (even before it blooms) will do a significant amount of healing (just under double the healing of a Rejuv being on the target with a single cast since stacks are removed) and save a significant amount of mana, because Lifebloom is ridiculously short. On top of that, you can get an 8 target Wild Growth 3 times during the cooldown. It will be stronger than Soul of the Forest until gear levels are high enough to make the inefficiency of Swiftmend not really matter.

    On another note, Barkskin for Resto is now a 15 second cooldown and 12 second duration.

  18. #158
    yea barskin lol there is a glyph that gives 5sec silence/kick immunity to it

  19. #159
    In the last 24 hours, it appears that they have applied a 12%-15% blanket across the board nerf to all Resto Druid spells compared to the numbers I had recorded for them when beta first came out. Of particular note is that Renew now ticks for 5520 per tick while Rejuv is 5055 per tick (with Harmony up).

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by daerellin View Post
    My experience was about the same as yours. With non-stop casting and as many HoTs as possible on my entire group, using Tranq and ToL, the pink-ish guys that do that AoE pulse decimated us repeatedly. Granted it's entirely possible that no one was using their defensives when necessary, lfd being lfd, but still.. it felt like I didn't have the necessary throughput in the scaled down pre-made gear.

    I could also just be completely and utterly bad without being able to use all my addons as a crutch :/
    I also had a hard time with this dungeon. Those adds were quite tough, but I was also in a group with a tank who didn't even give me time to load into the dungeon :/

    I think a big aspect of it is getting used to the 'new' healing. The cast time of wild growth is still something to get used to


    Apologies if this was discussed earlier in the thread, whats the word on Mushroom Bloom? Do we have any news on that yet, or still TBA?
    Last edited by solidbear; 2014-07-18 at 03:15 AM.

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