Burst of Speed is spoiling us.

[Grayjoy]

So I'm making this thread to get your opinions on what the hell to do with this talent as we approach WoD. I'm going to preface that I'm utterly in love with it, but as I'm sure we all know, too much obsessive love is generally not a great thing in WoW or otherwise.

I've been doing arenas the last week, and while I'm definitely...less than proficient, I still have a good enough empirical understanding of my class to comment. Burst of Speed is interesting because in the current world of gratuitous CC, it's a huge benefit for our class that dwarfs the competition in its talent tree for the most part. I'm aware of the utility of shadowstep, and I admit that I probably haven't used it to the fullest, but to be honest when I face a team capable of chain-rooting me it becomes difficult to consider all the cool utility implications SS provides when compared to BoS. There have been dozens of arenas where I've spammed burst of speed's "V" keybind almost subconsciously because of its incredible utility and cheap energy cost. It's a life saver. It's allowed me to kite players I would have otherwise died to, and allowed my teammates to get kills.

In PvE, I don't even touch shadowstep anymore. BoS's versatility and - far more important - ability to let us *improvise* have made it a mainstay on every single fight except possibly heroic klaxxi for me. It costs basically nothing. It allows me to navigate the chaos of a heroic raid with impunity, and when you could combine it with nitro boost it was the closest thing to a religiously orgasmic experience a video game has ever given me.

But it's also unsustainable. It has to be, because with the loss of AoC, shadowstep is going to be useless in Warlords compared to BoS. With cloak and dagger no longer giving UNLIMITED FUCKING TELEPORTING AMBUSHES, we have one clear-cut choice. And one enormous elephant in the room: with the paradigm shift of WoD and the reduction of CC, is BoS - the ability we've been spoiled by - going to be ridiculously overpowered?

I don't really know what to do with this ability. I love this talent, but it's just a bubble waiting to burst. Blizzard has their nebulous thoughts, but I'd love to hear the rogue community's condensed thoughts and opinions on what to do here.

[Squirl]

BoS is really not that good for PvE. It does have a cost. If you use it a lot (and it sounds like you do), you're wasting a significant amount of energy. Only Thok really warrants its use, and Malk when you're soaking puddles. ShS is better for everything else because it actually is free and it's a teleport rather than just a boost.

I don't know how good it actually is in PvP either; I haven't PvPed on my rogue much in MoP. I see a lot of rogues still using ShS, though.

I don't see them nerfing BoS. They buffed it last patch so it could compete with ShS. I think you're treating it as tool when in most cases it's just a crutch.

[Grayjoy]

Yeah, I think you're probably fair to say that it's a bit of a crutch for me. BoS's usefulness on heroic blackfuse (navigating belt duty and moving quickly out of things) and malk (soaking and sub positioning insurance) especially are just so pronounced to me that I may overvalue it. I also forgot about Iron Juggernaut, which needs no explanation for why SS is better.

I guess the crutch aspect is a bit of my issue, hence me referring to it as spoiling us. I've definitely fallen into patterns with it and bad habits that I don't like which are convenient but, as you said, completely illusory advantages that prevent me from using other tools better. I think that I use it more inefficiently than I think I do on some fights and in many PvP scenarios, but sometimes it just seems like such a necessary boon in CC-heavy arena situations or when you think you can spare the energy in PvE. Whether that's a design flaw in the mobility tier or not is an interesting discussion.

[Sturmgewehr86]

Yeah, I think you're probably fair to say that it's a bit of a crutch for me. BoS's usefulness on heroic blackfuse (navigating belt duty and moving quickly out of things)

I actually use Shadow Step on Heroic Blackfuse becouse once you are on the belt you can shadow step through one laser and cloak 2 while being stuck on your target.I guess i am too lazy to move about and look for the empty space

[SeyserKoze]

I'm not seeing how BoS is really any better than Shadowstep in SoO. The only fight I can think of is Thok for fixate and maybe Spoils if your tank is running around aimlessly. I only know normal mode though; haven't tried heroic. Plus, you have good ol Sprint. If you're playing Combat, it's barely ever on CD.

BoS is outstanding for Battlegrounds - can't argue with that.

[Deleted]

What i use is
Immerseus- BoS accidently SS into immerseus sucks xD besides with all that downtime to get to blobs the energy cost is minimal as i am mostly capped anyway.
Protectors- SS small area with everything in SS range so why not.
Nourushen - SS just for the trial although SSing through the beam helps my lazy ass not moving.
Sha - SS to get back to melee after soaking
Galakras - SS to get back to after orb goes for you
Juggs- I would run SS if my guild stayed in close for the transition phases but other than that not much movement is needed.
SHamans- SS moving after i get foul stream is usefull i guess. Again not too much movement.
Nazgrim - Our adds get brought to melee so again not too much movement but in the past i have used SS to get to adds easier.
Malk-, BoS hands down
Spoils - SS
Thok- BoS all that running though.
Siege - Depends on your job, SS is superior for the belt and i would argue the platform too. During electromagnet phases sprint is enough and if you get a mine on you forcing you away from the raid SS to the boss is a lifesaver if your melee is slow to help
Paragons- I take BoS as i am soaking aims
Garrosh- ?? Havent got there yet but i assume SS to do the engineers if assigned and to be able to dodge the annihilates in the celestial phases.

Although in PVP BoS is the best hands down. You can wait out roots. Vanish them CLoS them but being able to drop slows at command is really important to rogue mobility and to not get kited by every range with a slow and suffer a long boring death.

[Deleted]

You shouldn't look at PvE from a 'what do i need' view, and more so from a 'what do i not need', especially on bleeding edge progression and full min-maxing. If you spend 15 energy on a BoS usage that is wasted for even 0.1 seconds, that's a straight DPS loss. Possibly small but nonetheless a loss, and adds up faster than you think; especially when you have SS as a gap closer at your disposal.

Typically you don't need BoS unless you're doing something very unorthodox during a fight, bar Thok this tier perhaps. Additionally SS is so valuable as an escape, gap closer, mechanic gimper and general clutch-play-maker, there isn't really any negatives to consider other than a CD. But ask yourself: Do i move so much every ~20seconds that SS in unusable? I'd say if the answer to that is yes, you are either doing something wrong or someone else should be doing that job instead of a melee like yourself.

Then you bring in the exceptions, usually for mechanics which make BoS particularly considerable. Malkorok for example, it is very far from mandatory, but could help you if you struggle with movement and positioning. Like i mentioned before, unorthodox strats usually depend on something like BoS (Iron star kiting, Malkorok ball soaker etc.) and this is where it is strong.

Same goes for last tier really. If you are really pushing in PvE there isn't reason to not use SS most of the time, more notably so since the implementation of friendly target stepping. SS is extremely strong, no questions to ask.

[Deleted]

You shouldn't look at PvE from a 'what do i need' view, and more so from a 'what do i not need', especially on bleeding edge progression and full min-maxing. If you spend 15 energy on a BoS usage that is wasted for even 0.1 seconds, that's a straight DPS loss. Possibly small but nonetheless a loss, and adds up faster than you think; especially when you have SS as a gap closer at your disposal.

Typically you don't need BoS unless you're doing something very unorthodox during a fight, bar Thok this tier perhaps. Additionally SS is so valuable as an escape, gap closer, mechanic gimper and general clutch-play-maker, there isn't really any negatives to consider other than a CD. But ask yourself: Do i move so much every ~20seconds that SS in unusable? I'd say if the answer to that is yes, you are either doing something wrong or someone else should be doing that job instead of a melee like yourself.

Then you bring in the exceptions, usually for mechanics which make BoS particularly considerable. Malkorok for example, it is very far from mandatory, but could help you if you struggle with movement and positioning. Like i mentioned before, unorthodox strats usually depend on something like BoS (Iron star kiting, Malkorok ball soaker etc.) and this is where it is strong.

Same goes for last tier really. If you are really pushing in PvE there isn't reason to not use SS most of the time, more notably so since the implementation of friendly target stepping. SS is extremely strong, no questions to ask.

Wow pretty nice insight on a way most of us dont play althought it is something we should look to emulate in our play regardless of progression level.

[Sesshou]

I'm not really seeing why you'd need either on Malk. Just use sprint to clear up the orbs with cloak if thats what you're doing. Sprint is free and you can easily spare a glyph spot for that fight to make it faster.

On siege though, I've found that if I run through the fire with no speed buff to get to the belt (on the ones that have fire by the pipes) that I take an extra stack and will have to cloak it off (though this was during progression, maybe with the nerf and extra ilvl it doesn't matter anymore). If you sprint through that though, you don't have it to sprint up to the starting laser to hit the belt weapon immediately. Now you say shadowstep lets you skip a laser, but sprinting to avoid needing to cloak off the fire allows me to cloak for killing spree allowing KS to be used safely and allowing me to skip 2 lasers. Skipping the laser is a crap reason anyway as there is no point since you can remain in melee range no matter which spot the hole opens. If you're tanking the boss on the far side from the belt, I'm pretty sure that BoS saves you as much if not more travel time than shs.

Paragons- I take BoS as i am soaking aims

BoS for paragon aims sounds dumb. You can have sprint up for that and then shs back to the boss. I mean you seem to be combat, but even for other specs, I'm pretty sure sprint is on the AoC which means it has under a 40 second cd and the aim cd is longer than that.

Not to mention that if you're even really needing a speed boost at all (and I'd rather walk there normally and have 0 travel time on the return trip than run both ways), you're doing it in a bizarre way. Our rogues only have to move maybe 10 yards on the first 2 and maybe 5 on the second two (we kill him 4th).

[Phookah]

Why is every person commenting on the PvE uses? I don't think anyone thinks its better for general PvE, the issue where its over powered is PvP come WoD.
With the removal/consolidation of a lot of slows, is a tool that basically allows you to completely forget them going to be too strong?
Personally, I think its getting the nerf bat come WoD. At the very least an energy increase, or perhaps making the sprint lesser?

[Sesshou]

Probably because pve is the more interesting one to discuss because you have an idea of the situation since its standardized. Both can be good in pvp, but which is better depends a lot on what you're doing, who you are doing it with, and how you play.

[Wow]

Why is every person commenting on the PvE uses? I don't think anyone thinks its better for general PvE, the issue where its over powered is PvP come WoD.
With the removal/consolidation of a lot of slows, is a tool that basically allows you to completely forget them going to be too strong?
Personally, I think its getting the nerf bat come WoD. At the very least an energy increase, or perhaps making the sprint lesser?

And what slows are those? They are cutting some cc's but I don't see any slows going away which is the only thing bos works on. In fact I'm seeing more slows than now with things like the hunter munitions talent, frost shock not being on the shared shock cd anymore, or the dk perk that puts up chains on deathgrip etc etc.

[Squirl]

I'm not really seeing why you'd need either on Malk. Just use sprint to clear up the orbs with cloak if thats what you're doing. Sprint is free and you can easily spare a glyph spot for that fight to make it faster.

BoS clears the slow aura from the adds. It's useful when you're the designated melee puddle soaker and adds are slow to die.

[Demeia]

I suspect even in PvE BoS may be used more than the stronger heroic rogues believe. I don't NEED to use the skill more often than 20 seconds, it's true; but it is there when I need it, which SS may not be. Instead of a cooldown I'm watching, it's a power that's always there whenever required. You start to get used to speeding everywhere and before long, you simply forget how to use shadowstep or rather you lose your shadowstep instincts.

Or that's what happened to me. I suspect I'm not the only rogue for whom this is true.

For me, my reflexes aren't what they were twenty-years ago; BoS can get me out of the bad much faster. That's a pretty big plus.

[Deleted]

I'm not really seeing why you'd need either on Malk. Just use sprint to clear up the orbs with cloak if thats what you're doing. Sprint is free and you can easily spare a glyph spot for that fight to make it faster.

On siege though, I've found that if I run through the fire with no speed buff to get to the belt (on the ones that have fire by the pipes) that I take an extra stack and will have to cloak it off (though this was during progression, maybe with the nerf and extra ilvl it doesn't matter anymore). If you sprint through that though, you don't have it to sprint up to the starting laser to hit the belt weapon immediately. Now you say shadowstep lets you skip a laser, but sprinting to avoid needing to cloak off the fire allows me to cloak for killing spree allowing KS to be used safely and allowing me to skip 2 lasers. Skipping the laser is a crap reason anyway as there is no point since you can remain in melee range no matter which spot the hole opens. If you're tanking the boss on the far side from the belt, I'm pretty sure that BoS saves you as much if not more travel time than shs.


BoS for paragon aims sounds dumb. You can have sprint up for that and then shs back to the boss. I mean you seem to be combat, but even for other specs, I'm pretty sure sprint is on the AoC which means it has under a 40 second cd and the aim cd is longer than that.

Not to mention that if you're even really needing a speed boost at all (and I'd rather walk there normally and have 0 travel time on the return trip than run both ways), you're doing it in a bizarre way. Our rogues only have to move maybe 10 yards on the first 2 and maybe 5 on the second two (we kill him 4th).

Malk as squirl said is to remove the add slow which can be annoying at times. Siege i dont do the belt anymore we let our hunters solo it but when i was doing the belt i found running round the edge with a lock port helped alot and meant i didnt need to cloak the fire debuff or have BoS. I dunno about KS as i always used it before the first laser (and i played sub for it). Well i agree that Paragons i should prob take Shadowstep havent killed it yet but i suppose i have become reliant on BoS a little during farm.

[Deleted]

Probably because pve is the more interesting one to discuss because you have an idea of the situation since its standardized. Both can be good in pvp, but which is better depends a lot on what you're doing, who you are doing it with, and how you play.

Its exactly the same for PvE... its all subjective. If your raids needs you to, you will and that varies guild to guild. The only reason i gave Malkorok hc as an example is because on progress our guild (Ascendance) actually had me run around during the stack phase and collect all the balls alone, whilst the rest of the raid stacked and minimized raid damage. Obviously that was in t15 gear, but that was my point; BoS suits a lot of unusual tactics really well, so for that reason it is sometimes very good.

[Sesshou]

BoS clears the slow aura from the adds. It's useful when you're the designated melee puddle soaker and adds are slow to die.

You have rogues do that though? I mean I guess you could, but we just have the dk's do it with ams (which I think they actually want to do because it will give them rp).

Malk as squirl said is to remove the add slow which can be annoying at times. Siege i dont do the belt anymore we let our hunters solo it but when i was doing the belt i found running round the edge with a lock port helped alot and meant i didnt need to cloak the fire debuff or have BoS. I dunno about KS as i always used it before the first laser (and i played sub for it). Well i agree that Paragons i should prob take Shadowstep havent killed it yet but i suppose i have become reliant on BoS a little during farm.

I don't know about you, but my BG was usually gone by the time I got to hit the weapon so it was quite a bit more damage to use it later on the belt when ar/sb built my bg back up. I don't have to do it anymore either, our hunters and monks just stay up there... they really nerfed the shit out of that fight even before the ilvl upgrades.

I'm still not sure what you are reliant on BoS on farm paragons (which I'm guessing is normal) for. You can sprint out and shs back for aim even if they make you do it (we didn't use melee at all for normal and only ended up putting rogues on it for heroic). Other than that, I don't remember much movement at all or any snares.

[Squirl]

You have rogues do that though? I mean I guess you could, but we just have the dk's do it with ams (which I think they actually want to do because it will give them rp).

We only have one DK and he's usually Blood. I was the melee soaker for progression (in fact, I think the only melee in the raid). BoS and Feint make it so you can get to every single puddle even with adds up (which was common the first few weeks when we couldn't spare DPS to get them down quickly) and take very little damage. Other classes can do it just fine too, for sure. I don't know if any of them are as good at it as rogues, though. EDIT: Is AMS + Death's Advance actually up for every puddle? If so, yeah, DKs are probably better suited for this job.

As far as the thread as a whole, I don't think anyone is arguing that BoS is useless for PvE. It has some very good niche uses, which have been covered. However, it's usually worse than ShS. I don't see what's so OP about BoS that people use it constantly and feel it's going to/should be nerfed. It's just a crutch.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm talking entirely about PvE. I can't really comment on PvP.

[Deleted]

You have rogues do that though? I mean I guess you could, but we just have the dk's do it with ams (which I think they actually want to do because it will give them rp).



I don't know about you, but my BG was usually gone by the time I got to hit the weapon so it was quite a bit more damage to use it later on the belt when ar/sb built my bg back up. I don't have to do it anymore either, our hunters and monks just stay up there... they really nerfed the shit out of that fight even before the ilvl upgrades.

I'm still not sure what you are reliant on BoS on farm paragons (which I'm guessing is normal) for. You can sprint out and shs back for aim even if they make you do it (we didn't use melee at all for normal and only ended up putting rogues on it for heroic). Other than that, I don't remember much movement at all or any snares.

Sorry im prob just not putting across well enough. I mean that farm of the other bosses just meant i didnt really need to change talents so using BoS just became natural for like 4/5 months. Im aware ShS is prob more optimal and will start using it more now. We stopped killing normal stuff ages ago no point while we were progressing mostly extending.

[Rorke]

I feel the OP's pain. While Burst of Speed is a fun/good ability, I fucking can't deal with how reliant I am on it and feel bad every time I use it.

When it comes to pvp or solo questing/trivial pve I'm a burst of speed whore. The fact that you can run around in stealth in almost mount speed just makes everything so much easier. When I duel certain melee classes like Warriors, I can't lose because I can always effectively deadzone them so they can't charge me. I can also escape almost any fight without vanish or blind. It's retardly powerful when it comes to duels or random bg's.

Then when I switch to shadowstep, I feel as though I'm back to being a horrible player. In pvp I start to miss the crutch that burst of speed is and start to die much more often. With shadowstep, you're just locked to a gap closer that you can't improvise with. It's superior in the sense that you can CC players faster and far better than if you were with Burst of Speed. But you're locked in fights without Vanish/Blind and it puts you in a position where you have to use your defensive cool downs wisely instead of relying on the crutch that is burst of speed.

This is why when I do play shadowstep, I realize how bad I actually am with the class. Burst of speed is both a blessing and a curse. It's good in the sense that you can play with it's little gimmicks but it's a curse that doesn't allow you to advance your ability to play the class at its maximum potential. That is why currently, I'm just running Shadowstep with everything despite hating myself and playing worse for doing so.

If I want to be better with the class, I have no other option to play shadowstep.