1. #1

    Do the Attunement Passive Encourage Spec-Swapping for Min/Maxers?

    We know very little of what the new passives for specs actually do, other than what the tooltip implies, which is "You gain 5% more of the X stat from all sources." So the assumption is it's not a modifier to your baseline stats, but rather the stats that come off your gear.

    Now immediately this raises a concern for me. Let's look at assassination and combat.

    Assassination gains 5% more mastery, and Combat gains 5% more haste.

    Assuming (there's a lot of assuming here), that stats remain weighted in a similar manner as they are on live, I'm gonna make up some numbers for the sake of example (I'm far from being a theorycrafter).

    Say Assassination has a stat weight of 2 on Mastery and 1.5 on Haste.

    And Combat likewise has a stat weight of 2 on Haste and 1.5 on Mastery.

    Now imagine that you're a combat rogue who's had some unlucky RNG and wound up with a lot of mastery gear in the first tier. Say you've got it at a ratio of 4 mastery to every 3 haste.

    Your actual stat value, then looks something like this(excuse the numbers again, merely for example)

    Haste (3*2)+(3*2)(0.05) = 6.3
    Mastery (4*1.5) = 6

    Total stat value of 12.3

    Now if you're looking to get the most out of your gear, since you have no control over your stats anymore via reforge, the solution to the problem of bad RNG on gear drops is to switch to assassination, because your stat values then looks something like this.

    Haste (3*1.5) = 4.5
    Mastery (4*2)+(4*2)(0.05) = 8.4

    Total stat value of 12.9

    Now numbers are purely representative, again I'm not a theorycrafter. The end result is, that the only way to combat unlucky RNG on gear, and the only thing you truly have control over after Reforge is gone, is to swap to the spec your gear dictates.

    Obviously I'm only talking about rogues, and to a lesser degree all pure dps specs, but it really seems like a design flaw to me. I won't be forced to play a spec I don't like to keep up with progression, and to feel like I'm not gimping my raid group.

    Feel free to call me out for being a idiot on the maths, because alas, I am an idiot on the maths.
    Last edited by Don the Insane; 2014-06-11 at 11:55 AM. Reason: edited for typos

  2. #2
    I understand your point but this is also assuming that 10000 mastery = 10000 Haste in dps numbers for Assassination vs Combat. Switching to Assassination doesnt mean that you will do more dps because you have more mastery on your gear. There are other things that would affect this also.

    Also it seems like since this is a blanket passive that everyone is getting it means that they are probably going to use this for tuning purposes to make different specs have similar dps so that you dont have to choose a spec you dont want to play. I dont expect it to be 5% mastery and 5% haste, probably would end up being 6% mastery vs. 4% haste or some other variation.

    My opinion is you go with whatever spec you do more dps with, but that is my playstyle as I do enjoy playing all 3 specs right now as they all offer something a little different.
    Last edited by Kazkek; 2014-06-11 at 02:12 PM.

  3. #3
    Long story short, it's an artificial method to keep the stats relevant and easy-to-distinguish between specs.

    If you look at how MoP turned out to be, the more we progressed with gear the more the stat weights became so near to each other that basically the difference was negelegible and even worse their stat weights were so dependant from each other that a single item could make you reforge or even regem your entire gear.

    Adding a passive boost to an already strong and spec-defining stat just makes its EP artificially higher, and i assume Blizzard is looking to make the bonus high enough to make theorycrafters say "Mastery = Assa, Haste = Combat, Multistrike = Sub".

    This, coupled with the removal of reforging, should make the gearing process and the choosing of said gear easier for players. No one wants to run calculators just to discover a 0.2% dps increase, and it would end with majority of people wearing whatever they get not actually caring about that littel differences; this would make the gearing process bland, uninspiring and basically will make all pieces equal independently from the stats they have.

  4. #4
    If they brought the stats closer together as per the original aim, then most players wouldn't need to sim or calculate anything.
    This is simply contradictory to us actually having choice.
    I don't like to use the term "dumbing down" as I feel is is often a kneejerk reaction without consideration for the reasons, but as this is so contradictory to one of the big aims of the expansion, then that is exactly what it is.
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  5. #5
    So let's say I'm a combat rogue in the midst of progression during the first tier of WoD. I get my hands on a few pieces of gear off the early bosses, but they all have mastery on them. Despite however small the delta may be, theoretically if my mastery exceeds my haste rating, (given a stats are fairly balanced, which they implied they intend to make them, see posts on night elf racial) I would have higher dps output if I switched to assassination(given specs are tuned to be comparable dps-wise). I'm oversimplifying of course, but as a career combat rogue, the idea that playing my preferred spec would hinder my raid's progression is one I've always been wary of.

    If these passives exist, as some suggested, as targets for tuning specs, why not make them alter your baseline stat values, rather than your post-gear stat values, as the tooltip implies? I understand that you want to chase a particular stat while gearing, to make choices more meaningful. My concern is that the gear you get while progressing will dictate your most viable spec, rather than being able to choose the spec you prefer.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome DrArtorius's Avatar
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    Stats are supposed to be near each other at warlords, you won't need to change specs because of loot.

    If they don't tune properly again, there will be a "better" spec, lets hope they do it right this time, having to switch regardless of loot is much worse.
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  7. #7

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DrArtorius View Post
    Stats are supposed to be near each other at warlords, you won't need to change specs because of loot.

    If they don't tune properly again, there will be a "better" spec, lets hope they do it right this time, having to switch regardless of loot is much worse.
    How can they tune what stats you will have on your gear, when that part is decided by RNG?

    First and of all we have to ask how the stat EP values will be for each spec.
    If mastery, haste and crit are tuned to have the same EP value for all specs, then gear drops should not make you shift more towards one spec or another, if those specs are tuned correctly already without the gear. (which is what we should hope for)
    Since we do not know that yet, all we can do now is guessing ( although we can make educated guesses based on how bad Blizzard has cared for rogue spec equality in the past)

    If we go out from the current values, where haste is more important for combat/sub, and mastery for assassination, then gear drops and weapon drops will have influence on what spec we (will) choose .
    However, the attunement passive does not influence that decision, since it is calculated based on all stats, and not just haste or mastery. It will increase your most important stat for the chosen spec.
    (if multistrike for sub will be multistrike ofc)
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  9. #9
    I think we are creating a stom in a glass of water(or however that saying goes). This seems to me like a way to bump players in the right direction. Kind of the in the same way they introduced the 5% agility increase for all leather items. Since crit isn't increased by a percentage for any of our three specs, maybe it will be valued higher by a different class. If it will be apparent to any assassin-rogue that his mastery will be amplified by default, he will seek out masterygear, wich means if haste gear drops, it will go to the combat-rogue in the raid, or to any other leahter/agility class that might have a higher need for that spesific item. Sort of like an itemization without itemization.

    Lastly, to answer the question asked, will min/max-ing rogues be forced to change specs depending on what gear they get because of this passive bonus? Yes of course they will. But is this something new? No, min/max-ers have, since the beginning of dps parsing, been theorycrafting and changing specs to tune out those last 0.002% dps increases. Nothing is going to change for the bleeding edge progressors, they will continue to find the highest dps they can, and run with that.
    Last edited by Noorac; 2014-06-12 at 02:27 PM.

  10. #10
    It would be nice to keep reforge in the game if they are going to do attunement passives IMVHO.

  11. #11
    I think reforging going away sucks unless every stat has a 1:1 conversion to each other.

    But this 5% mumbo jumbo is probably just a guide to what you should be gearing towards. If all you have is mastery which is an assassination stat but sub is the highest dps spec atm and the stats are somewhat close to each other you should be able to still be able to swap to the more powerful spec and still out damage your other choice. The obvious fallacy in that being if you had for example BiS heroic warforged daggers and all your gear was mastery/crit and you wanted to go combat with some ilv 476 swords that'd probably be a bad choice.

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