[@arena123] removal possibly

[Ishayu]

That would break all kinds of useful, non-obtrusive macros, like macros for putting marks up on your allies, macros for buffing, macros for Symbiosis (ok that's going but still) and the like, macros for life swapping... Is @party1/2/3 also bad?

EDIT: Btw, I have smaller hands than my GF, so it's hard for me to hit as many keybinds as we need now - and even I think that's a bad idea. (My ring finger is less than 8cm)

[Flaim]

That would break all kinds of useful, non-obtrusive macros, like macros for putting marks up on your allies, macros for buffing, macros for Symbiosis (ok that's going but still) and the like, macros for life swapping... Is @party1/2/3 also bad?

EDIT: Btw, I have smaller hands than my GF, so it's hard for me to hit as many keybinds as we need now - and even I think that's a bad idea. (My ring finger is less than 8cm)

uhm...it wouldn't.
@arena123 are just the enemies, nothing else

[Deleted]

Hey,

I've also been in the conversation on twitter and I'd like to share my thoughts with you guys aswell.

I do not think that removing arena123 does increase anything and I have brought 1 scenario of it being not too good on twitter already, let me just quickly type it down here:

Imagine the enemy mage is blinking on your healer, casting a polymorph (1.7 second cast) on him, which lets say you're the only one generelly able to interupt it. So what would your steps be without arena123 Interupt? You would look at ur frames (because they will still allow you to target with arena123) to see which arena number the enemy is, then you will have to target him and then move your hand to the Interuptspell and that all would have to happen within less then 2 seconds. Cast will possibly be about to finish and then you play russian roulette if your interupt still lands in time or if eventho you hit it at 95% or what ever, the cast still goes through.

And that would for example be just a terrible thing to have to happen.

I agree. Its kind of dumb that you can cast at or cc players that you are not even targeting. It makes avoiding cc a guessing game and lowers the quality of play IMO.

Mage is targeting warrior but poly rings my healer. How was I supposed to help my healer? Just guess what the mage was doing? I dont want to guess wrong and turn the match around because i made a call that was based on a guess.

Honestly, focus could probly go away too.

How does it exactly lower the quality of gameplay? Because incase it's cc, you need to think who it will most likely be on and experience and keeping track of that persons positioning would help you in that case.

The Scenario of him having your warrior targeted and casting it on your healer could also easily be done by the focus option, which as you said should be gone aswell. Another change that would be even more brutal, because it's a horrible idea to do so. At high ratings, all that what you call guessing is not really a thing, of course you sometimes happen to do the wrong choice but as higher experience you have as more you will be aware of who it's gonna be on.

I generelly really do not see a problem in any of that and lets say they would take it out, do you think it'd be too much different? It would still happen to you by the enemy changing his focus, which some people are really good at, at constanstly switching their focus, which would in that case be also completely unpredictable.

And honestly, that your addon pop-up of the spell alert is showing the wrong target then we should maybe go back to the point of bringing more skill into this game and not make the gameplay reliable of addons that just make the game so much easier for you. I'd be terrified to play this game when people can just read what I'm doing from their addons instead of paying actually attention to whats going on.

Taking it out does do nothing than lowering the skill cap and the possiblities you have to play mind games with your opponents. This option been in this game for a very long time and it should not be.

[Flaim]

Hey,

I've also been in the conversation on twitter and I'd like to share my thoughts with you guys aswell.

I do not think that removing arena123 does increase anything and I have brought 1 scenario of it being not too good on twitter already, let me just quickly type it down here:

Imagine the enemy mage is blinking on your healer, casting a polymorph (1.7 second cast) on him, which lets say you're the only one generelly able to interupt it. So what would your steps be without arena123 Interupt? You would look at ur frames (because they will still allow you to target with arena123) to see which arena number the enemy is, then you will have to target him and then move your hand to the Interuptspell and that all would have to happen within less then 2 seconds. Cast will possibly be about to finish and then you play russian roulette if your interupt still lands in time or if eventho you hit it at 95% or what ever, the cast still goes through.

And that would for example be just a terrible thing to have to happen.

you're overcomplicating this.
you still have your arena frames, therefore you already know who is arena1,2,3 which allows you to quickly target/focus this person. just then you can kick @target/focus. doing this in less than 2 seconds would be way more skillfull than just clicking one of 3 kick macros, which separates you from good/bad players

[Ishayu]

uhm...it wouldn't.
@arena123 are just the enemies, nothing else

You said you'd disable /target and /focus in response to my workaround?

Anyway, I think the real problem here is not actually that it's too easy to target people to CC them. The real problem here is that your enemy has no way to know if he or someone else is being targeted.

Back in tBC and WotLK we didn't have arena123, and therefore people's macros would say
/target playername
/cast Polymorph
/targetlasttarget

Because the playername was targeted when polymorph was being casted, it was easy to write addons that would tell you which player was getting polymorphed, so people could outplay it by jumping out of range and stuff like that. THen people would use focus to confuse the addon, but the addon pretty quickly got updated to intelligently try to figure it out.

This occured primarily due to the way Gladius was coded, actually.

With @arena1/2/3, this became impossible. Perhaps it would be smarter if the enemy cast bar told you who was being targeted, or just flashes if it's you?

[Flaim]

You said you'd disable /target and /focus in response to my workaround?

you got me wrong there.

what you can do:

/target party1
/cast rejuv

and

/cast [@party1] rejuv]

what you can NOT do:

/target arena1
/cast wrath

nor

/cast [@arena1] wrath

[Yvaelle]

you got me wrong there.

Why though? If the argument is that @arena123 is too easy and should be removed to make the game more skillful, then @party123 should also be removed for the same reason. Focus windows and mouseover macros should also be removed for the same reason - casting anything on any target other than your target should be removed - by the same logic.

Even still - as I pointed out - all that would change is that the meta-game trick would become to 'target, cast polymorph, tab target' and then your true intention/victim is still obscured: the problem isn't solved, the game is just more annoying to play.

[Deleted]

You said you'd disable /target and /focus in response to my workaround?

Anyway, I think the real problem here is not actually that it's too easy to target people to CC them. The real problem here is that your enemy has no way to know if he or someone else is being targeted.

Back in tBC and WotLK we didn't have arena123, and therefore people's macros would say
/target playername
/cast Polymorph
/targetlasttarget

Because the playername was targeted when polymorph was being casted, it was easy to write addons that would tell you which player was getting polymorphed, so people could outplay it by jumping out of range and stuff like that. THen people would use focus to confuse the addon, but the addon pretty quickly got updated to intelligently try to figure it out.

This occured primarily due to the way Gladius was coded, actually.

With arena1/2/3, this became impossible. Perhaps it would be smarter if the enemy cast bar told you who was being targeted, or just flashes if it's you?

And where does this put more "skill" into this game? This whole idea about this is apprently putting more "skill" into the game, but how does any of this do it? You knowing that you are being casted on is not making the game "harder" it makes it even easier and it already is way too easy and friendly. Keep it the way it is and it will be fine

[Ishayu]

you got me wrong there.

what you can do:

/target party1
/cast rejuv

and

/cast [@party1] rejuv]

what you can NOT do:

/target arena1
/cast wrath

nor

/cast [@arena1] wrath

I argued why this wouldn't work, so if that was your response it just makes no sense.

Here's what I have to do:

When I enter the arena, I have an addon retrieve the names of all the enemy players and organize them. Gladius for WoW 3.0-3.3.5 did this, for instance. It's not hard, and if you disable it, you disable any attempt to make an arena frames addon. We need to have the names.

Index all the names in an array called playername[], with an index that goes from 1 to the number of players in the BG/arena.

Now that we have the name, make the addon autogenerate a keybind and associated addon that runs:

/target playername[index]
/cast Polymorph
/targetlasttarget

Now I've completed circumvented your removal; you accomplished nothing except forcing everyone to download an addon.

- - - Updated - - -

And where does this put more "skill" into this game? This whole idea about this is apprently putting more "skill" into the game, but how does any of this do it? You knowing that you are being casted on is not making the game "harder" it makes it even easier and it already is way too easy and friendly. Keep it the way it is and it will be fine

I wouldn't say that. Responding to information takes skill. Not having the information means you can't show your skill either way.

How are you supposed to know who is being targeted for a spell if the game doesn't give any way to let you know? You have to always assume you might be the recipient, which is actually one of the reasons why it's too difficult to play melee right now.

[Flaim]

and it already is way too easy and friendly.

this exactly.
with the removal of @arena123 you don't increase the skillcap by a lot, but it's certainly somthing.
even if it's just by "annoying" you to make 2 key presses, that already involves a minimum of twitch-skills and making strategical decissions (i.e. "should i keep the healer or the mage in my focus while i'm training the lock?").
moreover your target/focus can be dropped by lots of spells, which requires you to not tunnelvision if you want to re-target/focus

- - - Updated - - -

I argued why this wouldn't work, so if that was your response it just makes no sense.

ok, then i got you wrong. yeah, you're right with this. but luckily it's not my job to make the system work :3
i'd come up with something, but i don't know what possibilities blizzard has on their side.

[Deleted]

this exactly.
with the removal of arena123 you don't increase the skillcap by a lot, but it's certainly somthing.
even if it's just by "annoying" you to make 2 key presses, that already involves a minimum of twitch-skills and making strategical decissions (i.e. "should i keep the healer or the mage in my focus while i'm training the lock?").

.

It does not increase it, not at all. It makes it easier to counter, that's the only thing it does. This is my last post regarding it because you guys simply want your addons to do work and that's not increasing the skill, it really isn't when your addon tells you that you're about to get cc'ed. And that really annoys me so much that I kinda feel argueing against it does not even bring anything.

If you want to increase the skill cap, then come up with ideas that actually do something about it and there I have an amazing idea already. Removing Gladiator LOSSA & Those addons telling you you're about to get CC'ed. I'm sure, it will make the game harder for you.

[Flaim]

It does not increase it, not at all.

now the addon stuff aside as i'm not interessted in this information that much.
how does 1 more button to press (reaction time and possiblity of misclicking) and the possibility of your target/focus being dropped (you need to notice it, i.e. not tunnel vision, to re-target/-focus) not increase skill cap? it's not hard, but gamebreaking if not executed properly.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Imagine the enemy mage is blinking on your healer, casting a polymorph (1.7 second cast) on him, which lets say you're the only one generelly able to interupt it. So what would your steps be without arena123 Interupt? You would look at ur frames (because they will still allow you to target with arena123) to see which arena number the enemy is, then you will have to target him and then move your hand to the Interuptspell and that all would have to happen within less then 2 seconds. Cast will possibly be about to finish and then you play russian roulette if your interupt still lands in time or if eventho you hit it at 95% or what ever, the cast still goes through.

And that would for example be just a terrible thing to have to happen.

currently in this situation, a 1500 warrior and a 2800 warrior both hear gladiatorlossa announce blink, and then one second later announce polymorph. both warriors then press their keybind to charge/pummel/stormbolt arena target 3, and the polymorph is interrupted

with this change, both warriors would still hear blink and polymorph, the 1500 warrior would freeze for 5 seconds and try to work out where the mage is, and the polymorph would go off. the 2800 warrior, aware previously that polymorph dr was about to expire on his healer and that the mage has blink off cooldown, would presumably already have the mage on focus expecting the cc attempt at some point in the next 10 seconds, and is able to charge/pummel/stormbolt the polymorph cast. the 1500 warrior reacts after the event and fails, the 2800 warrior anticipates the event and succeeds

people are far too reliant on addons and macros to play the game for them, this change would be a nice step in the right direction =)

sorry doomsen i know you love your cyclone 1 2 3 bash 1 2 3

[Spyro-]

Button bloat? If you remap keys to modifiers you only need 3 extra keys to arena1/2/3 anything.

Example with the NAGA:
NAGA1 = rshift
NAGA2 = rctrl
NAGA3 = ralt

That way you only need 1 key per ability. With a macro like:
/cast [@target, nomod] Hex
/cast [@arena1, mod: rshift] Hex (NAGA1 modifier)
/cast [@arena2, mod: rctrl] Hex (NAGA2 modifier)
/cast [@arena3, mod: ralt] Hex (NAGA3 modifier)
/cast [@focus, mod: lshift] Hex (Keyboard shift modifier)

Note that left modifiers are different than right modifiers, there's a total of 7 modifiers (lefts, rights and nomod).

[Starsinn]

Button bloat? If you remap keys to modifiers you only need 3 extra keys to arena1/2/3 anything.

Example with the NAGA:
NAGA1 = rshift
NAGA2 = rctrl
NAGA3 = ralt

That way you only need 1 key per ability. With a macro like:
/cast [@target, nomod] Hex
/cast [@arena1, mod: rshift] Hex (NAGA1 modifier)
/cast [@arena2, mod: rctrl] Hex (NAGA2 modifier)
/cast [@arena3, mod: ralt] Hex (NAGA3 modifier)
/cast [@focus, mod: lshift] Hex (Keyboard shift modifier)

Note that left modifiers are different than right modifiers, there's a total of 7 modifiers (lefts, rights and nomod).

Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, exhibit "A".

This is exactly what the problem is.

[Spyro-]

Anyway, I think the real problem here is not actually that it's too easy to target people to CC them. The real problem here is that your enemy has no way to know if he or someone else is being targeted.
[...]
With @arena1/2/3, this became impossible. Perhaps it would be smarter if the enemy cast bar told you who was being targeted, or just flashes if it's you?

AFAIK you can always known the destination unit of a spell with COMBAT_LOG_EVENT_UNFILTERED, no matter what the source has targeted, using the destGUID/destName parameters. It wouldn't be very difficult to code an addon to visually change the target's target showing the REAL target for the duration of the cast.

[facerollin]

Would cut the shit out of button bind bloat.

[Flaim]

Button bloat? If you remap keys to modifiers you only need 3 extra keys to arena1/2/3 anything.

Example with the NAGA:
NAGA1 = rshift
NAGA2 = rctrl
NAGA3 = ralt

That way you only need 1 key per ability. With a macro like:
/cast [@target, nomod] Hex
/cast [@arena1, mod: rshift] Hex (NAGA1 modifier)
/cast [@arena2, mod: rctrl] Hex (NAGA2 modifier)
/cast [@arena3, mod: ralt] Hex (NAGA3 modifier)
/cast [@focus, mod: lshift] Hex (Keyboard shift modifier)

Note that left modifiers are different than right modifiers, there's a total of 7 modifiers (lefts, rights and nomod).

that's actually one of the problems: you need tons of macros

[Spyro-]

that's actually one of the problems: you need tons of macros

The same number of macros you need to use abilities on just target and focus (with shift).

[gestapo]

OP you make some valid arguments. I'm with you on this, subscribing.